Episode 187. Ever wonder where the sake bomb actually came from? Spoiler alert: it probably wasn’t Japan. This week on Sake Revolution, John and Tim dive headfirst into one of the most divisive topics in sake culture — the sake bomb. From its surprising roots in the 19th century boilermaker, to a 1987 Houston newspaper ad that might just be the earliest printed record of the drink, this episode is packed with history, hot takes, and a few personal confessions. Plus, we explore the question – is the sake bomb a gateway to premium sake, or is it a bad look for sake culture? The guys weigh in — and the answer might surprise you. Sit back, relax and get ready to take sides! Where do you stand on the sake bomb? #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 05:23 The Sake Bomb

---

Skip to: 15:27 The Sake Bomb in Print

---

Skip to: 25:58 Sake Tasting: Ozeki One Cup Junmai

Ozeki One Cup Junmai

Brewery: Ozeki Corporation
Classification: Junmai
Acidity: 1.7
Alcohol: 14.0%
Prefecture: Hyogo
Seimaibuai: 78%
SMV: +3.0
Rice Type: Gohyakumangoku
Importer: JFC (USA)
Brand: Ozeki

View On UrbanSake.com

---

Skip to: 24:31 Sake Bomb Stories

---

---

Skip to: 32:48 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma 0:21
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s First Sake podcast, and I’m your host, John Puma. From the Sake Notes, also the administrator over at the Internet sake Discord. Uh, come visit us sometime. Uh, but yeah, on this show I’m the guy who’s, uh, not the sake Samurai.

Timothy Sullivan 0:42
And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education over at the Sake Studies Center at Brooklyn Kura, I’m the founder of the Urban Sake website. And you’ll find John and I here all the time talking about sake trying to make it fun and easy to understand. how you

John Puma 1:02
I’m good. I’m good.

Timothy Sullivan 1:03
Alright, well we have an explosive episode this week, John.

John Puma 1:09
Yes. Uh, we do, we do. So Tim, I hear this episode might be the bomb.

Timothy Sullivan 1:18
you got me.

John Puma 1:20
I never thought we’d do an episode on this. So you, you just, you explain yourself, sir.

Timothy Sullivan 1:26
Well, uh, you know, John, you and I are all about premium sake. We love to promote sake. We always love to speak about sake in a good light. We always like to look on the bright side and promote the best of the sake world. But there is a topic out there that dogs all of us sake educators, and I thought it was time that we tackle this head on It dogs us. Yes.

John Puma 1:59
I am. I’m fascinated by the dogging. Uh. But, um, okay. Explain the dog. in the

Timothy Sullivan 2:09
it, means, um, you know, it’s something that plagues us. So this is a topic as a sake educator that sometimes comes up and we have to address it. And it’s very divisive. It’s very, uh, you know, it splits the sake world into two camps. And the topic we’re gonna talk about today is sake bombs.

John Puma 2:33
Yeah, that I said it would be the bomb. And it’s that bomb.

Timothy Sullivan 2:38
It’s explosive.

John Puma 2:39
talking about. So, um, yeah. Uh, so, so, um, and, and we even get anywhere with this, Tim, I, I have a question for you. Have

Timothy Sullivan 2:48
Yeah.

John Puma 2:49
done a sake bomb?

Timothy Sullivan 2:51
I have never done a sake bomb. How about you, John?

John Puma 2:55
Uh.

Timothy Sullivan 2:55
True confessions.

John Puma 2:56
So, no, I have not done a sake bomb either. So that makes us the perfect people to be talking about sake bombs today. Now, now, now, why have you never done a sake bomb?

Timothy Sullivan 3:07
Well, I didn’t really get into sake till I was like 35. So think sake bombs are something in popular American culture that you do during college or you know, whatever. And I was not. Drinking sake during college, I never came across one. I was not a big drinker in college, so, uh, yeah, it never crossed my path. And then when I got older, I fell in love with sake and was introduced to premium sake right away and kind of never went down that path.

John Puma 3:38
Interesting. so what you’re saying is that like by the time you got into sake, you were too old for that. Too old for that shit. Has anybody ever offered you a sake bomb

Timothy Sullivan 3:51
I can’t think of one. People have brought it up to me all the time as a sake teacher, um, in a joking way or, you know, having serious questions about it. But, uh, no one’s ever put one down in front of me and been like, let’s do this.

John Puma 4:09
That’s funny. I can, I, I feel like knowing you, I feel like people would be a like. Like very, um, uh, how do I put this. delicately? You give the appearance of a man of, of high standing and I think that perhaps people would feel that you would be insulted if they tried to give you a sake bomb. That is, I’m not saying that that is what people think I’ve just, or, or that that’s what you think, but I think that people would be a little bit like, I don’t know, Tim Sullivan might be offended if I tried to give him a sake bomb What do you think

Timothy Sullivan 4:47
Well,

John Puma 4:47
Is it

Timothy Sullivan 4:49
maybe. maybe I’m a distinguished. Am I a distinguished gentleman? Look at this distinguished gentleman. Yes.

John Puma 4:55
yeah, yeah.

Timothy Sullivan 4:57
You on, you on the other hand?

John Puma 4:59
no, uh, me and I have been offered, um, sake bombs before, but my excuse is the one I have. I really just don’t drink beer. Um, and if I drank beer, it might be a lot of fun. I don’t know. But I

Timothy Sullivan 5:09
Yeah.

John Puma 5:10
I’m gonna have a follow up question for you.

Timothy Sullivan 5:12
Oh yeah.

John Puma 5:12
gauge your, your level of, of, uh, distinguished gentleness. when was the last time you did a shot?

Timothy Sullivan 5:19
Okay. I know the answer to this one.

John Puma 5:22
predate your first interaction with sake?

Timothy Sullivan 5:24
No, I’ve done a shot very recently.

John Puma 5:26
You did a shot recently. I’m very

Timothy Sullivan 5:28
Yes.

John Puma 5:29
what

Timothy Sullivan 5:29
Yes. So I went to a very nice cocktail bar in the city, in the West Village in New York. Uh, it’s called, angel share.

John Puma 5:42
Ah, yes. Ah, the legendary Angel Share

Timothy Sullivan 5:44
The legendary angel share. It’s now in the West Village and it is so fun and the cocktails are amazing

John Puma 5:51
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan 5:53
You know when you go in there and you are in the industry, and I’ve met some of the bartenders there before and they, they do serve Hakkaisan San Sake there as part of one of their cocktails and they were very, very kind to us and welcomed us, uh, as people who are in the industry and one of the suppliers for their products. And when we were leaving they said, would you like to do a shot with us? And so they picked a tequila and I did it. I said, there’s no backing out.

John Puma 6:22
I, I cannot, ima I cannot imagine you doing a tequila shot, no offense.

Timothy Sullivan 6:28
I did it. I did it.

John Puma 6:29
It’s, you see, you understand listening at home, seeing Tim Sullivan let his hair down is a rare treat and. And, and it. happens very infrequently and I clearly missed an opportunity at, at the Angels. I’ve been to Angels Share and all I had was, uh,$25 cocktails. I’d never had a shot. They’re very good. cocktails, by the way.

Timothy Sullivan 6:51
They’re very good. to answer your question, I have done a shot, but never a sake bomb, and I’m okay with that. I think we should lay a few ground rules about this episode because it’s going to generate a lot of controversy online, I’m sure. But one thing I wanna make clear right from the beginning here is that John and I are not doing a sake bomb today on this episode. Right.

John Puma 7:19
I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna lie to you. I wonder why that is, because if we’re doing it, we, we do an episode. and we always drink the thing we talk about. But here we don’t, and it’s not like we can change gears Right. now and suddenly make a beer appear because I don’t actually have any in the house. but what was the, what was the reasoning behind, behind that?

Timothy Sullivan 7:43
Well, I don’t think sake bombs are intrinsically bad. Um, and I don’t think I wanna do it because they’re not something that’s meant for premium sake per se. And I think that, um. If you wanna do that with your sake, that’s fine, but we decided not to do that because it’s not something that I necessarily want to encourage. It’s not a cultural part of the sake industry that I want to promote. I want to talk about it on this episode a little more academically, but, um, I don’t think doing it is going to. Help and support the sake industry, and that is always my number one priority.

John Puma 8:33
Sounds good. I like that explanation. You, you explained

Timothy Sullivan 8:36
Yeah.

John Puma 8:38
fine. I,

Timothy Sullivan 8:39
Yeah.

John Puma 8:39
I’ve also heard many fun things about, uh, about sake bombs, about their place, in the industry and what they bring to the party, so to speak. But, I did not do the, I did not do the studying on this one. You did. So why don’t you tell us, about the origins of the sake bomb.

Timothy Sullivan 8:58
Yeah. well, we should get some facts out there right away first. So

John Puma 9:03
I’m ready for the facts.

Timothy Sullivan 9:05
in Japan, the sake bomb is almost unknown. So the sake bomb is not something that originated in Japan or in Japanese culture and came to the US No, no, no, no, no.

John Puma 9:19
the general so’s chicken of, of sake, imbibing.

Timothy Sullivan 9:24
yes. So it is something that. Was born of American culture and most Japanese people don’t know about it. And when they hear about it, they’re like, wow, that’s really weird. So there’s a lot.

John Puma 9:40
what it is first?

Timothy Sullivan 9:41
Oh, we should do that for sure. Yeah, there may be. There may be people listening,

John Puma 9:46
knows his beer, and I think they

Timothy Sullivan 9:48
beer’s involved.

John Puma 9:49
And. If, if you got, if you’re with us that far, you’re nailing it.

Timothy Sullivan 9:53
Okay, John. So John, why don’t you give us your, uh, description of what a sake bomb entails.

John Puma 10:01
sure. Have you ever had a Jager bomb before you, the listener at home. Have you ever seen an Irish car bomb? Same idea, but it’s sake. Sometimes if they’re being especially fancy, they will take the shot of sake and they will place it on some chopsticks above the beer. You know, kind of as a, a, a, a platform and then you slam the bar. Inevitably the chopsticks will give way. The shot glass will fall into your beer, and then you pound the beer with the sake in it. That is a sake bomb.

Timothy Sullivan 10:35
Yeah, you nailed it. That’s it.

John Puma 10:37
Haha,

Timothy Sullivan 10:38
Yeah. And

John Puma 10:39
I just haven’t done it.

Timothy Sullivan 10:41
yeah, and uh, I will put. If you’re interested in seeing this in action, I will put a video from YouTube into our show notes so you can see the sake bomb in action. Someone else doing one and yeah, so it,

John Puma 10:58
Else, someone is

Timothy Sullivan 11:00
someone else. I wonder if people gonna are gonna think that you and I are on a high horse’cause we’re not doing a sake bomb, but

John Puma 11:08
No,

Timothy Sullivan 11:08
I don’t care.

John Puma 11:09
Um, you know, my horse is

Timothy Sullivan 11:11
I.

John Puma 11:12
I. just, just don’t enjoy beer.

Timothy Sullivan 11:15
Yeah. So you mentioned a few things when you were describing what the sake bomb was, John, and that actually ties into the origin of what it is a sake bomb is actually a cocktail.

John Puma 11:28
Literally. Sure. Yes. It is

Timothy Sullivan 11:31
I, I am here to tell you it is a cocktail.

John Puma 11:35
Okay.

Timothy Sullivan 11:36
there is, uh.

John Puma 11:37
one of those, like is a hot dog a sandwich? Kind of things like.

Timothy Sullivan 11:40
Yes, this is, this is a hot dog. It’s a sandwich. Yes.

John Puma 11:44
is a cocktail done. We have

Timothy Sullivan 11:46
I, I think so. So you mentioned an Irish car bomb

John Puma 11:51
Right?

Timothy Sullivan 11:52
and which is a cocktail,

John Puma 11:53
Right.

Timothy Sullivan 11:54
another one I wanna mention is a boiler maker. Have you heard of a boiler maker? I.

John Puma 11:58
yeah. I. think a boilermaker kind of covers all of these derivative bomb drinks, if I’m not mistaken. Right.

Timothy Sullivan 12:07
Well, a boilermaker is the original, and it started in the late 19th century. So the 18 hundreds, you would order a beer and it would come with a shot of whiskey on the side. Not dropped in, but on the side. So, uh. A pint with a shot that was called a boiler maker. And in the 20th century it evolved into dropping the shot of whiskey into the beer. And that is a modern boiler maker. So. It originated with the shot on the side and evolved into dropping the whiskey into the beer. And then the Irish car bomb, uh, is, uh, Irish whiskey dropped into Stout beer. So that’s a variation.

John Puma 13:01
That may have a mildly offensive name. We didn’t name it. That’s just what it’s called.

Timothy Sullivan 13:06
Yeah, I did look up the history of the Sake bomb to research this episode, and they outlined the evolution from the Boilermaker to the Irish car drink to the sake bomb.

John Puma 13:24
Irish car drink. I love it.

Timothy Sullivan 13:26
Yes.

John Puma 13:27
I do remember the boiler maker and thank you for clearing that up for me. I always, I knew the boiler maker was kind of like, uh, adjacent to the, the bomb. Um, but I didn’t

Timothy Sullivan 13:36
Yeah.

John Puma 13:37
that it was kind of the predecessor and the precursor. That’s where the, uh, good information.

Timothy Sullivan 13:41
Yeah. Have you ever heard of a Jager bomb?

John Puma 13:43
Oh, who hasn’t?

Timothy Sullivan 13:45
Okay, good. That is also in the lineage of these drinks too. A

John Puma 13:50
Yes.

Timothy Sullivan 13:50
Jagermeister with, uh, no Jagermeister dropping Jagermeister into an energy drink, I think is a Jager bomb.

John Puma 13:56
you, you can also do it with beer. Um, I’ve seen both. I think you, like Red Bull, right? Is usually

Timothy Sullivan 14:02
Yeah. Yeah.

John Puma 14:02
the

Timothy Sullivan 14:02
Red Bull.

John Puma 14:04
for a Yeager bomb. Yeah. I don’t,

Timothy Sullivan 14:07
Yeah.

John Puma 14:07
that doesn’t sound very appetizing to me.

Timothy Sullivan 14:10
Yeah,

John Puma 14:11
that’s one where I was too old. It was like, oh, we’re gonna drop jaegermeister into, into a Red Bull. I was like, that sounds like a heart attack. I don’t need that. Uh, so

Timothy Sullivan 14:22
I don’t do that.

John Puma 14:23
that. one I was too old for.

Timothy Sullivan 14:24
I don’t do Red Bulls either. But,

John Puma 14:26
Yeah. No, no, me

Timothy Sullivan 14:27
uh, yeah. So that’s kind of, I think some of the evolution, but part of the timing is when did all this come around? And if you look online, a lot of people kind of postulate or. Suggest that the SAKE bomb was invented by GIS coming back from Japan after World War ii, so in the fifties. But according to all my research, I think that SAKE bombs originated a little bit later, and I actually did some hardcore academic research for this episode, and I went. Online and researched in newspaper databases, and I spent quite a bit of time trying to find the first printed reference to sake Bomb the drink.

John Puma 15:26
A drink.

Timothy Sullivan 15:27
Yes. Do you wanna guess, do you wanna guess what year the first printed reference to sake Bomb. The drink is in any newspaper in the United States. Guess what year?

John Puma 15:43
So I, I don’t think I’m gonna be able to guess the year, but what I’m gonna guess is the 1980s, and here’s why I’m gonna guess

Timothy Sullivan 15:49
Mm-hmm.

John Puma 15:50
’cause the 1980s was that boom era for Japan. There was a lot of investment in the US and honestly, a lot of curiosity. So I’m gonna say the 1980s because that just feels like the right climate for, for Japanese influence to start creeping over here.

Timothy Sullivan 16:07
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. It is in the 1980s, so congratulations. Um, I was thinking that if the sake bomb was invented in the 1950s, that there would be some mention somewhere in some printed newspaper before the 1980s, but I searched high and low and I. Did a really in depth academic search for this. And the earliest printed reference that I can find in any United States newspaper that mentions sake bomb related to the drink is the, um, it’s a Houston, the, the Houston Daily newspaper in Texas from 1987.

John Puma 16:50
I don’t know if I wanna know how you found a copy of a Houston newspaper of 1987, but I’m impressed.

Timothy Sullivan 16:57
Yes. So there’s a restaurant, there was a restaurant, Miyako Japanese restaurant. They, they advertised in the newspaper a sushi happy hour, uh, for sushi,$1 a piece. And it says sake dash bomb,$1 and 50 cents. So this is the first printed reference I can find to. Someone advertising a sake bomb as a thing. But you know, these, these drinks kind of, uh, evolve over time before people, they kind of catch up with popular imagination and then would appear in some kind of documented print. So it’s, it existed for sure long before 1987, but that is the first printed reference to sake bomb in any kind of advertising or, uh, article or anything that I can find.

John Puma 17:51
Interesting. That’s pretty cool. I, I’m very impressed that you were able to find that

Timothy Sullivan 17:56
Yeah, and I’ll put, I, I have a screenshot of the, the ad for Miyako sushi happy hour, and I will put that,

John Puma 18:05
up. I have now brought that, up on my screen and I can now see this, this little like clippy coupon. This is amazing by the way.

Timothy Sullivan 18:13
yeah.

John Puma 18:14
$1,

Timothy Sullivan 18:15
For sushi.

John Puma 18:16
Oh for, wow. That is

Timothy Sullivan 18:18
Yeah.

John Puma 18:19
can we talk about inflation for a minute? Wow, that’s, that’s incredible. Wow. Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan 18:25
It would be great if we ever get our DeLorean to go back to Miyako in Houston and try it out.

John Puma 18:33
Now out of curiosity, Tim,

Timothy Sullivan 18:35
Yeah.

John Puma 18:36
because my mind is always on the money, not really on the money, but my mind is always, on the sake, since we’re not doing sake bombs,

Timothy Sullivan 18:44
Hmm.

John Puma 18:44
are we drinking?

Timothy Sullivan 18:45
Yeah, I thought about that and

John Puma 18:47
you.

Timothy Sullivan 18:48
yeah, I thought it might be okay if we drink a sake that I’m sure many people have used in sake bombs before. So this is a, an entry level Junmai, and it is one of the most popular and most basic entry level sakes You’re gonna see. Wouldn’t you say that this sake’s probably been used in a few sake bombs?

John Puma 19:15
It wouldn’t shock me.

Timothy Sullivan 19:17
Yeah.

John Puma 19:17
And, and you know, it also doesn’t shock me. This isn’t the first time this sake’s been on the show before.

Timothy Sullivan 19:22
I.

John Puma 19:23
Mm-hmm. You may remember, historians sake revolution. Historians may recall that we’ve had this on the show before, and it’s funny that we just reference a newspaper from Texas because I’m pretty sure our guest on the show was from Texas as well. you’re talking about the Sake Bible with, author Brian Ashcraft and We drank the Ozeki one cup, which is exactly what’s in my hand right now.

Timothy Sullivan 19:49
we are gonna drink the Zeki one cup, which is a fine sake. It’s a June Mai, it’s made in Japan. We talked all about this with Brian. It is, a. Fantastic entry level sake. And the one cup form factor is super historic and we can talk a little bit about that. Refresh everyone’s memory. So I’m not saying that, the sake should be disparaged in any way, but I think that. When you’re looking for an entry level, approachable sake that someone might use for this sake bomb cocktail, I think that this is the style of sake that people might grab. It’s affordable. It’s, you find it everywhere.

John Puma 20:29
I agree a hundred percent.

Timothy Sullivan 20:30
Yeah. So do you want to give us the stats on the Ozeki one cup Junmai and bring us up to speed?

John Puma 20:38
absolutely Tim. So this is the Ozeki one cup Junmai. polishing rate on the rice is 78%, which is oddly specific. And yeah. At the time that that newspaper clipping was made in, in 1987, this would’ve been considered foot shoe because I believe at the time, June mine needed to be under, what was it, 70%? Aha.

Timothy Sullivan 20:59
right. You got it.

John Puma 21:01
I

Timothy Sullivan 21:01
A plus. A plus.

John Puma 21:03
History on occasion,

Timothy Sullivan 21:05
Sensei is impressed.

John Puma 21:07
sensei he will remember this. Okay. It is, Nakateshin senbon Rice, Sake meter value is plus five alcohol percentage is 13 and a half. I like that they bring it down a little bit’cause you know it’s a one cup, the acidity is 1.5. This is, a 180 milliliter beverage that was made in Hyogo Japan.

Timothy Sullivan 21:27
Yes. So Ozeki is one of the largest producers of sake in Hyogo. Hyogo is the Prefecture that makes the most volume of sake of any Prefecture in Japan. And this cup was introduced in 1964, the year that Tokyo hosted the Olympics. And. As we’ve talked about on the podcast in the past, one Cups from that moment on became synonymous with riding on the bullet train and having sake to go.

John Puma 22:00
the train was probably, It had already been in operation at that point, but not that long, I don’t think. And I think that having the Olympics is gonna be a time where you can really promote the shinkansen, uh, you know, come to Japan for the Olympics and use the bullet train to go everywhere also have the one cup.

Timothy Sullivan 22:18
Yeah, so 1964 was the Olympics and the start of the bullet train.

John Puma 22:24
really? Uh, for

Timothy Sullivan 22:25
Yep,

John Puma 22:25
it was earlier than that. Wow.

Timothy Sullivan 22:27
yep.

John Puma 22:27
It’s fantastic.

Timothy Sullivan 22:28
Yeah. And um. It says right here on this little tech sheet that there are more than 4 billion cups sold all over the world. Sounds like McDonald’s over 4 billion served.

John Puma 22:41
4,000,000,002.

Timothy Sullivan 22:44
Yes. All right. Well,

John Puma 22:46
Let’s get this open up and uh, have a

Timothy Sullivan 22:47
yeah. Sounds great.

John Puma 22:49
Okay. We should have put this in a shock glass and. it. At least we would’ve been closer to the spirit of the sake bomb. not

Timothy Sullivan 22:58
Yeah.

John Puma 22:59
milliliters though, people at, at home. That is not happening.

Timothy Sullivan 23:03
Alright, so the aroma is very rice-y and a little boozy, right?

John Puma 23:08
Right. I mostly, I’m mostly getting the rice, which is kind of

Timothy Sullivan 23:12
Hmm.

John Puma 23:12
I thought I would get a lot of booze and often when there’s booze, I’m very sensitive to it and I get that aroma really quickly.

Timothy Sullivan 23:19
Yeah.

John Puma 23:19
For whatever reason today, it’s, it’s really given me a lot of the rice, all that, that,

Timothy Sullivan 23:25
Yeah. As it should. As it should.

John Puma 23:27
Sweet. It’s sweet, sweet rice. Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan 23:29
Hmm. classic. It’s classic.

John Puma 23:32
I feel like I’m on a bullet train in 1964, except there’s no smoke in my apartment. I feel like, I feel like the bullet train in 19 four had probably had a lot of ambient secondhand smoke.

Timothy Sullivan 23:42
Yes, absolutely.

John Puma 23:44
would enhance the experience? Maybe, I think, I think, I think a one cup of sake On a bowl of train, 1964, I’m thinking Smoke. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. We’re all there. We’re we’re here.

Timothy Sullivan 23:54
It’s good. It’s, it’s very, basic. It’s super classic. And I think when Ozeki sells this cup, they’re really tuning into the nostalgia of, of this particular sake, which was groundbreaking for the time

John Puma 24:10
Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan 24:10
this form factor, which was groundbreaking for the time.

John Puma 24:13
sure.

Timothy Sullivan 24:14
uh, approachable, affordable, accessible, and, All that being said, I still believe that if people wanted sake for a sake bomb, they would reach for something like this sake. So that’s why we’re featuring it. Yeah.

John Puma 24:31
I, I, I kind, I wanna tell quickly a little OA bomb story

Timothy Sullivan 24:35
Hmm.

John Puma 24:36
one

Timothy Sullivan 24:37
good.’cause’cause I, I have one too. So you go first? Yes.

John Puma 24:41
time I was at a, um, a popular. Sake bar in New York. this sake bar at the time was kind of known for their sake bombs. They may still be, I haven’t checked and. This, you know, uh, people around the bar, everybody ordered sake bombs. The bartender’s like, do you want one? You want? And, and kind of sold so many people on getting sake bombs. And I was there with somebody else, or, or was it, I don’t think I was there literally with them. I think we were just nearby one another. And that person, was a little more knowledgeable about sake and started kind of shitting on everybody having sake bombs being a little uppity about it. Thinking, you know, acting like the sake bomb was bad for sake. After everybody did, the sake bombs, everybody pounded them, and there’s beer sake everywhere. The bartender is like, look, you gotta, you know, you gotta understand like this, this sake bomb, these sake, you may, you may shit on them, but that this stuff is gonna get these people in the sake. More importantly, it’s the thing that, that. Keeps the lights on here so we can have the nice sake that you like to drink because we sell a lot of these and that, you know, and that person was just like, oh shit. And I kinda shut up and went on their way. It was an Interesting. moment of like remembering that like, you don’t, don’t, don’t shit on something just’cause you don’t like it. You know? It’s, it’s good for other people and, and it may have a, it may serve a purpose in the business that you’re sitting in. Which I thought was interesting’cause you don’t really think about it that way in a lot of cases.

Timothy Sullivan 26:08
Interesting. Do you agree? Do you agree with that bartender’s point of view that do you think sake bombs are a gateway to premium sake?

John Puma 26:15
I dunno. Exactly. I’ve never spoken to the people who had them there. I did speak to somebody once, whose first sake experience was a sake bomb. So there is at least circumstantial evidence that it might be the case, at least one situation. so story?

Timothy Sullivan 26:33
yes, my sake bomb story also involves a sake bar that you’ve probably been to. It is no longer open.

John Puma 26:44
Aw.

Timothy Sullivan 26:44
I was having dinner at this Sake restaurant and I was sitting at a table that was adjacent to the bar. So I wasn’t at the bar, but I was with an earshot. And this restaurant used to be on the Lower East side. And there was a group of. I guess I’ll call them frat bros. Frat guys.

John Puma 27:09
say, Bros.

Timothy Sullivan 27:11
Bros.

John Puma 27:13
I don’t think we need to identify the, uh, the type of bro.

Timothy Sullivan 27:19
They might’ve been fraternity bros, but they were broing out. They were broing out with each other and they were not disturbingly rowdy, but they were. A little bit rowdy and they were having a good time

John Puma 27:33
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan 27:34
and they kind of stumbled into this restaurant and they sauntered up to the bar

John Puma 27:40
Ooh,

Timothy Sullivan 27:41
the bartender. Yeah. the bartender went up to them and said, Hey guys, just so you know, we don’t do sake bombs at this bar. No, but they looked like, they looked like they were pro profile. They looked like to me, to me and the bartender. They looked like they were gonna ask for that. They got profiled and they, their, it was so funny, they immediately like sat up straight and. Like their tone like quieted down and the bartender saying that was basically like, you know, you guys are just a scooch too rowdy. We don’t do sake bombs here. And it, I thought it was a very interesting way to like say like, Hey, this is like a little bit of an upscale restaurant. You can’t be coming in here like it’s, you know,

John Puma 28:41
You’re

Timothy Sullivan 28:42
pong

John Puma 28:42
Bombs.

Timothy Sullivan 28:43
beer, beer pong Thursday at the frat house. So.

John Puma 28:46
at the frat house. Beer pong and sake bombs.

Timothy Sullivan 28:50
So they, they immediately were like, oh, yeah, yeah, of course. No, we’re, we’re not gonna ask for that. And, and they were not apologetic, but just like, oh yeah, like, they got the message right away and they straightened up and ordered some great sake. And, you know, story has a happy ending, John. So everyone enjoyed their sake and, uh, but.

John Puma 29:12
avoided sake bombs and got good sake. I have people who, maybe one day they’ll have, you know, uh, the premium experience.

Timothy Sullivan 29:19
Yeah,

John Puma 29:20
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan 29:20
but I think that that point you mentioned before is a sake bomb a gateway to enjoying premium sake. I have a strong opinion about that question, and I’m gonna tell you what it is.

John Puma 29:32
Okay. I, no, I, I thought you might.

Timothy Sullivan 29:34
I’m not gonna hold back. Uh, just like it, it kind of ties into the amazing episode we did with Goto San about sake. Cocktails our sake cocktails a gateway to enjoying premium sake. And I said emphatically at the beginning that a sake bomb is a type of cocktail.

John Puma 29:52
you

Timothy Sullivan 29:53
Um, I, I don’t. Necessarily believe that having these alternate versions of sake, or you know, mixed drinks that have a little bit of sake in them are going to make you a sake drinker. It’s like, oh, if you love martinis, that means in the future you’re gonna be a vermouth connoisseur. Like, no, it doesn’t work that way.

John Puma 30:19
I really, uh, enjoyed me some tiki drinks in Hawaii, and now I

Timothy Sullivan 30:23
Hmm.

John Puma 30:23
good taste for excellent rum, which you

Timothy Sullivan 30:27
So,

John Puma 30:27
get in a tiki drink.

Timothy Sullivan 30:31
so are, are you, you’re the counter argument that

John Puma 30:34
am

Timothy Sullivan 30:34
Tiki.

John Puma 30:35
that anything’s possible.

Timothy Sullivan 30:39
I agree. I think that,

John Puma 30:41
and you are talking to the guy who, who got into sake because he had Hakutsuru draft at the Ginza Lion once in 2006.

Timothy Sullivan 30:49
yes.

John Puma 30:51
Would you have, Would you assume that that there’d be a correlation there? No.

Timothy Sullivan 30:55
on the other hand, there are restaurants that if you go in to the bar and say, can I do a sake bomb here? They’re gonna say no. Like it is not acceptable in certain scenarios,

John Puma 31:10
You

Timothy Sullivan 31:10
I think that’s fine.

John Puma 31:11
to say in polite company, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan 31:15
For a distinguished gentleman.

John Puma 31:17
for a distinguished

Timothy Sullivan 31:17
It is.

John Puma 31:18
as, such as myself.

Timothy Sullivan 31:22
right.

John Puma 31:23
so Tim, what have we learned today?

Timothy Sullivan 31:27
Well. What have we learned? I don’t know what we’ve learned, but

John Puma 31:33
that you can find newspaper clippings from 1987 in another state if you try hard enough and if your target is sake bombs apparently, which is amazing. And I’m super happy that you did this. I

Timothy Sullivan 31:47
That,

John Puma 31:47
how you did it, but I’m happy that you did it. Um, I also learned that sake bombs have a much longer history than I thought.

Timothy Sullivan 31:53
hmm.

John Puma 31:53
I also learned that the shinkansen actually happened in 1964 and not in like 1959 or 60, which I previous, previously had assumed. I learned that, uh, that you can tell somebody they’re being rude in your restaurant by telling them that you don’t serve sake bombs.

Timothy Sullivan 32:14
Yeah. Well that, that’s. John, that’s a lot of takeaways for one episode, I think. Yeah. Well, I learned that you don’t have to do sake bombs in order to research them or think critically about them. So.

John Puma 32:30
Fair

Timothy Sullivan 32:31
gonna hide. I’m gonna hide behind the academic approach here, and for any listeners that think we absolutely should have done a sake bomb, please write in and let us know and we’ll take it under advisement, right John? I

John Puma 32:47
I think so.

Timothy Sullivan 32:48
John, this was really fun. Thank you for listening to my long and winding road explanation of how we got from a boiler maker to a sake bomb. And, I think the history of this drink is really interesting and it is part of American culture. There is no denying that

John Puma 33:07
Yes.

Timothy Sullivan 33:07
we just gotta, uh, you know. Study it in its natural habitat and not try to bring it out of there. That’s what I think.

John Puma 33:15
Yes. Yes, absolutely.

Timothy Sullivan 33:18
All right. Well, it was great to taste with you and, uh, just so much fun to be back in the saddle and enjoying sake with you. John, I’d like to thank all of our listeners for tuning in, but especially I wanna say hello to our Patreon supporters. If you would like to show your support for our podcast. And if you enjoyed this episode, please consider joining our community on Patreon. We’re a listener supported show, and the support we receive from our patrons allows us to host, edit, and produce a podcast for you, um, every month. And we are so excited to welcome you, uh, to our community. To visit us there, go to patreon.com/sakerevolution.

John Puma 34:01
And. are looking up websites, uh, to look at sake revolution. stuff, go to SakeRevolution.com because that’s where the show notes live. We have a lot of visuals associated with the show sometimes. This is one of those shows, for sure, one of those episodes. so you’ll be able to see the coupon, the mystery ad, the coupon from the Houston newspaper from 1987. And I believe also some fun facts about the, one cup Junmai. So on that note, Tim, please raise your cup. remember to keep drinking one Cups and kanpai.

Episode 186. What happens when one of Japan’s most ancient art forms meets your favorite grab-and-go drink? This week on Sake Revolution, John and Tim crack open something truly special — a one cup sake housed in genuine Imari porcelain, the same fine ceramics that were traded to Europe as far back as the 1600s. The brewery behind it, Koimari Sake Brewery of Saga Prefecture, has crafted a series of five beautifully designed cups that double as collectible works of art. And when it comes time to actually taste what’s inside, both hosts are caught completely off guard by a bold, bright acidity that nobody saw coming. Tune in for a tasting that’s equal parts art history lesson, sake education, and pure delicious surprise. #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 05:23 Koimari Sake Brewery

Koimari Shuzo is a reputable, small-scale brewery in Imari City, Saga Prefecture, Japan, established in 1909. Known for premium, award-winning sake like the “Koimari Saki” line, they focus on crafting elegant, fruit-forward, and crisp brews using local rice, soft, natural water, and traditional, small-batch techniques.

Key Aspects of Koimari Brewery:
History & Origin: Founded in 1909 by the Maeda family, who previously ran a kimono shop during the Edo period. They take their name from the historic “Koimari” porcelain, reflecting the region’s cultural heritage.
Location: Situated in Imari City, Saga Prefecture, Kyushu.
Sake Profile: Known for producing clean, crisp, and smooth, with a delicate balance of acidity and umami,often featuring notes of peach, apple, or tropical fruit.

Website: https://sake-koimari.jp/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/sakekoimari/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/koimari_official/
UrbanSake: https://www.urbansake.com/sake-guide/koimari-shuzo/

---

Skip to: 10:32 Sake Tasting: Koimari Nomanne Porcelain One Cup

Koimari Nomanne Fuyoude (lotus flower)

Brewery: Koimari Shuzo
Prefecture: Saga
Classification: Junmai
ACIDITY: 2.5
ABV: 15.0%
SEMAIBUAI: 65%
NIHONSHUDO: +2.0
RICE: Saga No Hana
YEAST: #701

Koimari Nomanne Tachibana (ancient citrus)

Brewery: Koimari Shuzo
Prefecture: Saga
Classification: Junmai
ACIDITY: 2.5
ABV: 15.0%
SEMAIBUAI: 65%
NIHONSHUDO: +2.0
RICE: Saga No Hana
YEAST: #701

---

---

Skip to: 232:52 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s First Sake podcast. I’m your host, John Puma From the Sake Notes, also the administrator over at the Internet Sake Discord, as well as the lead mod at Reddit’s r slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:38
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center, and I’m also the founder of the Urban Sake website. And John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:54
Hey, how you doing, Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 0:57
I am doing good. How about you, John?

John Puma: 0:59
Hanging in there. It’s been, just been, uh, very busy lately and I’m just trying to like, keep just trying to. Hang on and get through it all.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:09
Welcome. Welcome to Modern Life in the Big City,

John Puma: 1:12
Yeah, that’s, I think that’s exactly what I’m experiencing is like, wow. Uh, it’s, it becomes a little overwhelming at a certain point, but, you know, we’ll get through and, and, uh, and you know what helps me get through.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:24
What’s that?

John Puma: 1:25
Okay. Uh, no.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:27
I thought you were gonna say meditation and a healthy diet.

John Puma: 1:30
Oh. Also now I honestly, I really enjoy doing the show. This helps relax me.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:36
Yes. I mean, come on. A good glass of sake after a long day at work is our recipe for happiness and definitely our hobby as well, right.

John Puma: 1:46
Mm-hmm. And, and you know what they say? It is all things in moderation.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:49
For sure, and I think we have a fun episode planned for all our listeners today. We’re going to get funky, but kind of in an upscale way, wouldn’t you say?

John Puma: 2:01
Um, yeah, I would, I, I wanna say Tim, I don’t know, you know, at first when, when I was presented with this, uh, with this sake and I, and you said that you wanted to do a. A funky packaging on this. I was like, Tim, I do not know if this is funky packaging. It is very elegant. It’s elegant packaging. And, and do we have, you know, I don’t wanna make a new series on elegant packaging, so I guess we’ll just roll with it.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:27
Yes,

John Puma: 2:29
So I guess anything that’s, anything that’s unusual is funky. Right? That is the, that’s that’s how we’re doing this.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:35
yes, this is under the umbrella of, maybe it can be fun and funky.

John Puma: 2:39
Yeah. Okay. Alright. We’re not renaming it though, but

Timothy Sullivan: 2:43
No, we’re not.

John Puma: 2:44
We’re not gonna go back and redo all the episodes and be like, it’s actually a fun and funky packaging. No, this is

Timothy Sullivan: 2:50
no.

John Puma: 2:51
funky packaging. So, um, yeah, we’ve, we’ve teased long enough, Tim, we’ve

Timothy Sullivan: 2:57
Yes. So we are gonna be featuring a one cup sake, which doesn’t sound too out there or too crazy, but this is actually a one cup sake that is in a porcelain one cup.

John Puma: 3:14
See, this is why I say elegant, and you say funky.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:17
Yes,

John Puma: 3:19
But it is unusual. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a porcelain, um, one cup apart from the, apart from this, uh, this series that we’re gonna be, um, talking about today. So, Tim, before we get into the question of who is making Porcelain one Cups, I need to, uh, indulge my, my inner Stan Lee and say that every episode might be somebody’s first episode and ask you. What is a one cup for our new listeners at home?

Timothy Sullivan: 3:48
Well, Stan, a one cup is, just what it sounds like. It is a. Cup of sake that is sold in a preportioned 180 ml size, and it usually has like a pull tab, foil cover on it. And usually they’re made of glass and it’s like a grab and go thing. You can get at the convenience store or at the train station, you peel off the top and you can drink right out of the cup. A single serving. And these became popular from the sixties and. They’re viewed as very utilitarian styles of sake.

John Puma: 4:24
Yeah. Yeah. I’d say that’s right and I think that, yeah, for me, I always associate it with those like long. Train rides those long Shinkansen rides. Uh, and, and I’d say the popularity and the growth of the One Cup has probably coincided with that, with that rail system, as you mentioned the sixties, I was like, yeah, that really does line up a little bit, doesn’t it? That’s very cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:46
Yeah, so to have a one cup made out of fine Japanese porcelain is not usual. And dare I say funky. So we’re gonna dive into this really unique packaging today to see what it tastes like and to talk a little bit about the brewery and the design series that they came up with to promote this porcelain beautiful porcelain one cup. Uh, you can buy here in the States. So, uh, it’s gonna be a great, great topic to talk about today.

John Puma: 5:16
Excellent. Excellent. Great. So who is this guilty party that’s using ceramic in their one cups? Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 5:22
Yeah, so the brewery is called Koimari Sake Brewery, and they’re located in Saga. If you’ve ever heard of Imari before, if that rings any kind of a bell for you, uh, you may be into porcelain, uh, because there’s a very famous porcelain called Imari porcelain in Japan. It’s the same area of Japan as Arita porcelain as well. I think we’ve talked about arita porcelain on the podcast before when we’ve done episodes on Saga Prefecture, right?

John Puma: 5:54
Yeah. We actually talk about saga. Weirdly often, I think. Um, so, uh, if you wanna go and talk about, uh, if you wanna go and listen to us talk about, uh, about Saga porcelain, you can go back to episode 29, the Saga of Saga Kuras, which inspired naming on that one. I really like that. And then, uh, Koimari actually got, got mentioned and sipped on when we had Jessica Jolie on the show talking about saga sake in episode 119. So back there and, and look into this, uh, when you’re done listening to this episode.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:27
Yeah. So Koimari Brewery, there is a port town of Imari and that’s where this porcelain was shipped all around Japan and later shipped to the wider world. Um, and they named a series of sake after. This very famous porcelain from their hometown. And this brewery was founded in 1909, but today it’s still a relatively small brewery, uh, making about 700 Koku a year.

John Puma: 6:57
Oh, wow. Yeah. That is small. Could you, um, could you remind everybody at home what a Koku is?

Timothy Sullivan: 7:03
Yes, A koku is a measurement of volume for the production of a sake brewery, and one koku equals 1,800 liters.

John Puma: 7:14
And what does that translate into for like bottles?

Timothy Sullivan: 7:18
do you know the, the 1.8 liter Isshobin party size bottles?

John Puma: 7:23
I sure do.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:24
You sure do. Well if you have 100 of those, imagine that stacked up on a pallet that is one koku, and then they make 700 Koku. So, uh, that gives you an idea of how many bottles, not huge production, I think for Japan, it’s on the smaller side, uh, but they export their delicious sake to the states. So, uh, all listeners here in the States can enjoy these sakes as well.

John Puma: 7:52
Very cool. I’m, I’m glad that they are, getting their, you know, little by little, I’ve been seeing more of their stuff in the States and it’s been a lot of fun, to see them, grow their, their export.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:06
Yeah, so if you’ll indulge me, I just want to talk very briefly about the. Imari porcelain that inspired these one cups. Just a little bit of background. We talked about Aritaware in the past, and Imari is a same region, very similar. I think that, uh, Porcelain falls under the umbrella of the arita region. They’re very, very closely related. This is one of the first types of porcelain to be exported out of Japan for the European market. And that was way back in the Edo period. So in 16 hundreds, little little bits of this porcelain started trickling out, being traded. It’s known for very vibrant colors, usually on a white background. And the designs are influenced by a lot of the popular Chinese porcelain that was available around these times. Brocade patterns are very, very popular and, yeah, it’s just very, very classic. We’re gonna include some photos of. Koimari porcelain in our show notes. So if you’d like to see some really classic examples of what this particular type of porcelain looks like, check out our show notes for sure. And we’ll also post photos of these beautiful one cups that are inspired by this traditional designs of the classic porcelain.

John Puma: 9:34
And I’m glad we are because I think it’s kind of hard to, uh, explain or hard to have people picture what this looks like without having actual, um, images of it. So remember guys show notes.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:45
Yes, this is, here we are again with another VIS visual episode. Uh, trying trying

John Puma: 9:51
happens a lot here on Sake Revolution. But you know, I, I’m sure people, uh, enjoy checking out the show notes.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:58
Yeah, it happens a lot with the funky packaging episodes because we’re talking about the visual appearance of the packaging a lot. So, uh, definitely check out the show notes to see the pictures.

John Puma: 10:09
Very cool. So, uh, let’s get into these cups and, and we’ll talk about what we’ve got in our hands, talk about what they look like, and then after that we’ll talk about what they taste like.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:20
Yes. So, uh, John, you and I both have. One of the, uh, koimari cups

John Puma: 10:28
do.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:29
and we have different designs.

John Puma: 10:30
Yes. Yes, though there, there, it looks like there are quite a few different designs. I’d say at least. Whether there at least five or is it just five?

Timothy Sullivan: 10:40
yeah, there are five classic ones and they just launched two additional ones that are not exported yet. So,

John Puma: 10:48
We’re always one step behind here in the us.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:51
yes, so, I am going to introduce mine first. So it comes in a, a black gift box and the design, there’s a little sticker on the front that shows you which of the five designs is the cup inside, so you don’t have to open it up to see which of the five designs you have.

John Puma: 11:11
No, and I see you’re saying this is not a a gotcha. We don’t have

Timothy Sullivan: 11:13
this is not

John Puma: 11:14
buy, you have to buy all. You have to keep buying them over and over again and hope you get all of off the whole set.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:20
So when we open it up, uh, there is a full sheet folded in there with a front and back color sheet that talks all about this design series and talks all about the, different designs and what they mean. It’s in Japanese and English. So this is absolutely perfect and it’s gonna help us a lot today. And then you pull out the cup itself. Oh wow. That is really nice.

John Puma: 11:48
Yeah. And, and you know, for people at home who have had one cups before, you might think like, well, wait a minute. A box. A box for a one cup. And you know, number one, funky packaging. Number two. since these are porcelain, they are, you know, probably a little bit more fragile than your average one cup. So they wanna make sure these, um, can stand some, some wear and tear.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:10
Yeah. And I have a strong, strong suspicion that these are often gifted

John Puma: 12:15
Mm.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:16
as, you know, a type of a gift or omiyage and having the beautiful, uh, small box to hold these,, porcelain ceramic one cups is really, really a nice touch. So do you have yours out as well, John? I

John Puma: 12:30
I do, I do. So, um, tell me about yours.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:34
Okay, so mine is a very beautiful blue and white design, and it is called in, it is called in Japanese Fuyode Fuyode, and that means the lotus hand. So it’s the lotus hand pattern, and it’s a design that originated in China.

John Puma: 12:56
Oh, and that, that’s a, that pattern, that, that style is something that I’ve seen, you know, many times over the years. I’m sure that a lot of our listeners have seen this style before, probably on like, um, a. Uh, maybe on teacups and stuff like that.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:12
Yeah, it’s a classic indigo, blue and white. Uh, it looks like old school. Porcelain. There’s like a key design around the bottom and some flowers that are meant to invoke, uh, lotus flowers, and it’s absolutely beautiful. I really, really love it. So that’s the story of mine. Blue and white, classic old school porcelain. Which design did you get, John?

John Puma: 13:38
So I’ve got the, uh, Tachibana, it’s listed as being a Nabeshima style Tachibana, and mine has, Kind of a yellow citrus fruits on it, on a, on a tree. It’s a nice little drawing of, trees with, with citrus on it. And I went and took a look at some of the language on this, and it says that the, the tree is bearing fruit of everlasting life.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:04
Oh

John Puma: 14:05
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:05
yeah,

John Puma: 14:06
So it’s not just any fruit. This is some qual high quality fruit.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:11
You, you can’t get that fruit at Whole Foods, I

John Puma: 14:13
No, I don’t think you can. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:17
Tachibana is an ancient variety of citrus. So I, I read it’s like a old version of like a, a tangerine or something

John Puma: 14:26
Probably, yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:27
Yeah, so we have the Tachibana. Ancient citrus and we have the lotus hand in my

John Puma: 14:35
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:35
and they’re both really beautiful. So your design has like yellowish orangeish, citrus fruits on a tree with green leaves in the background. The one thing that’s common among both of all these cups is what I mentioned about. The, co imari porcelain in general, which is kind of vibrant colors on a white background. I think that’s something that is indicative of the style. So we both have that, a beautiful white background that really makes the design pop, doesn’t it?

John Puma: 15:06
It does, it does, it looks great. Um, you know, they, they didn’t mess around here. They, they made something really beautiful.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:13
Yeah. Now looking at the bottle, I noticed that there’s something that is a little incongruous with, uh, ancient. Designs, which is a few, a few QR codes here on the back.

John Puma: 15:28
You know, I got a blend of old and new.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:30
yes. So the first QR code is called The Saga, and this is a sticker that they put on the back here. And this QR code goes to the saga sake Brewers Association and just is kind of a home base for their, you know, their, regional. Style and, a homepage for, what they want to promote as far as what saga sake means. And I think that’s really great. So they’re working hard to promote their regionality and their Prefecture in their regional style. So that’s one QR code. And then there’s the traditional. It, uh, distributors label on the back as well. And this is distributed by New York Mutual Trading here in New York, LA Mutual trading on the West coast. And this has a QR code as well, so you can also get the stats and the tech sheet for this product. Um, and it’s got like the alcohol and the volume, size, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, so a couple QR codes along with our, our ancient porcelain. I love that.

John Puma: 16:34
You know, it’s, uh, you know, gotta gotta bring that, uh, modern touch the saga. That’s a, that’s a great name for it. Oh yeah. And then on top we have another, we have another modern bit, uh, sticker that says GI Saga. Another one of those geographical indicators.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:51
You got it. So saga sake is protected by that GI certification and yeah, so they’ve got this labeled on all sides, making sure we know this is from saga, if the porcelain wasn’t a dead giveaway. And on top of that, there is a plastic cover. On this, which means that if you open the sake and wanna seal it back up, it comes with this removable plastic cap that you can use. I think we talked about this cap before when we talked about one cups.

John Puma: 17:22
we have, and while the cap is very surprisingly good at keeping the sake inside, I would say maybe. Don’t 100% say, oh, well it’s sealed now it’s, it’s covered. But sealed is, is a strong word, and I would kind of treat this as a little bit open once it’s opened.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:43
let’s take off the plastic cover. All right. Yeah. And there’s the foil pull tab.

John Puma: 17:50
Yep. Now in the, in the states, a lot of cups, we have the little tab, like a, like a beer tab, and then it just opens up a small hole. In Japan, generally speaking, with, sake, you’ve got the pull tab where it takes off the entire top of the, uh, the entire top covering.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:06
That’s right. So that’s what we have here. The pull tab is like. Off to the side and when we pull on it, it’s gonna pull the foil off the entire top of this cup. So are we ready to do that? Should we pull the trigger?

John Puma: 18:20
I think we are ready to pull the trigger, or at least the pull tab.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:24
Alright. Okay.

John Puma: 18:29
Ooh, there we go. This is, this cup looks like, it looks like somebody poured me a sake in a very fancy porcelain cup. When I look in, when I put it down on my table and I look at it, I was like, ah, look at that.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:45
Yeah, so. The, the walls of this cup are relatively thick, so this, this looks like, to me, this looks like a, a tall slim teacup or

John Puma: 18:55
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:57
Um, it’s very beautiful and I wanna note that the lip of the cup is also slightly rounded so that the metal has. The metal of the, uh, foil can wrap around and really seal this in. So there’s a little, uh, lip to the edge of this cup, and I’m sure it makes it very pleasant to drink out of as well.

John Puma: 19:19
Yeah. You know, maybe, maybe I was wrong about this lid. Maybe it will do a little more than I thought.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:23
Hmm. All

John Puma: 19:26
Um, we, I think we need to stop here though ’cause we’re getting perilously close to the idea of drinking the sake and we cannot do that until we have talked about what is in the cup. So this is a, Junmai from, koimari, brewery over in Saga, prefecture. Um, it uses saga no Hana rice, which i’m going to, give my amateur opinion and say that probably means. Flower of saga. it has been milled down to 65% of his original size. It’s using yeast 7 0 1, um, relative to the old seven and s meter value of plus two, that net, meter of dry to sweet. So expect something. Very, very slightly dry acidity of 2.5. Tim, I could be mistaken, but acidity of 2.5 is, is a touch on the high side, is it not?

Timothy Sullivan: 20:18
A little on the high side, but let’s, let’s reserve our judgment

John Puma: 20:21
mm We’re just talking about the numbers, Tim. That’s

Timothy Sullivan: 20:24
Yep. That’s crunching the numbers.

John Puma: 20:26
this crunch of the numbers. Um, and then of course, uh, the alcohol by volume is 15%. Sounds like a nice thing to have on a train,

Timothy Sullivan: 20:34
Yeah. Uh, this would be, this would be for the first class car I think.

John Puma: 20:39
exactly

Timothy Sullivan: 20:41
All right. Well, the, uh, well, one other thing we should make clear is that the five different designs, I think they all have the same sake inside. So John and I are tasting the same sake, even though we have different designs on our glasses

John Puma: 20:56
Yeah. It would be interesting if the cups actually changed the way the sake tasted because of what they print on the outside, but I don’t think that’s gonna be the case.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:03
All right. Well. Here we go. I’m

John Puma: 21:06
Well, let’s get a, let’s get the nose. It’s hard to get, hard to get the nose on a one cup. I find

Timothy Sullivan: 21:13
I do smell something.

John Puma: 21:15
me too. Hmm,

Timothy Sullivan: 21:17
So to me this smells, just a little bit creamy and a little bit, rice as well. This is, uh, gonna be. Yeah, gonna be a classic Junmai, so we’re not getting much, tropical fruit here. I think this is going to be one of those more lactic or rice forward sakes, which is a pretty classic style to put in a one cup.

John Puma: 21:40
I think so too.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:42
Yeah, so lovely little bit of cream or maybe butter

John Puma: 21:47
Ooh, that would be

Timothy Sullivan: 21:48
on the nose. Yeah. And then some rice that saga No Hana sake rice.

John Puma: 21:54
Hmm. All right, well,

Timothy Sullivan: 21:58
Smells good to me. It really, it really is a pleasant aroma.

John Puma: 22:01
it is. It is, and I, yeah, there is that, that, that, that ricey-ness not like a, not a aggressively rice, but just like faint, subtle, pleasant, All right, let’s, let’s

Timothy Sullivan: 22:13
Let’s give it a taste. Ooh.

John Puma: 22:18
Oh, that was surprising.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:20
Oh my gosh. That acidity, that acidity is there.

John Puma: 22:25
It’s the very present.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:26
Boom.

John Puma: 22:27
wow. It is. Um, it’s a lot more, um, I’m gonna say more tart than I was expecting from the aroma.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:34
Yes.

John Puma: 22:35
am shocked. I’m really legitimately shocked by this.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:40
It tastes good, but it’s tart. You’re right, it has this tart, a high acidity. Um, and I was expecting something much more down to earth basic with the, with the aroma, but it has this really bright acidity. Hmm. I like it.

John Puma: 23:03
Me too. I just wasn’t in any way expecting it. That’s, I’m just like,

Timothy Sullivan: 23:08
Hmm.

John Puma: 23:09
Hmm

Timothy Sullivan: 23:10
Oh, wow. That’s really good.

John Puma: 23:12
hmm. That’s really nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:14
it. Ha. If you think about, do you remember Sweet Tarts, those candies?

John Puma: 23:18
I two.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:19
It has a little bit of that.

John Puma: 23:22
Of that tart.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:23
sweet, sweet tart candy hint to it. But, it’s balanced with a grounding in like rice flavor. So 60, 65% rice polish. But the acidity of 2.5 really comes through and it’s such an interesting sake.

John Puma: 23:43
Yeah, this is fun. Uh, this is nice. So this is a one cup, and I’m gonna say, with the fact that it’s a one cup combined with this fun acidity here, what do we think for food?

Timothy Sullivan: 23:54
Mm.

John Puma: 23:57
I have some ideas, but I think that, but I wanna hear what you have to say.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:03
Well my, with this high acidity, my. Thoughts go immediately to something with citrus in it. So I was thinking like, if you’ve ever had a lemon chicken that is really lemony, I think like a lemon chicken would go really well with this. So rice, lemon chicken with that lemon sauce, that would be amazing. With this also a, a salad with a citrus vinegarette or, um, you know, those salads that have a little wedge of. Orange or grapefruit in them, something with a citrus, uh, and salad I think would be a great pairing as far as the weight is concerned. Like, um, nothing too heavy. That’s my idea. What, what do you think, John?

John Puma: 24:45
Um, for some reason, my, my brain immediately went and started craving tempura, uh.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:52
Hmm.

John Puma: 24:53
I wanted something a little bit oily like, you know, I, I don’t know exactly why, but, I feel like it’s gonna cut through that a little bit nicely. However, one, you know, I am, I am also very sold on your, on your Citrus idea. That sounds wonderful and matches my cup as a matter of fact.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:10
Mm-hmm.

John Puma: 25:11
But I can really go for something that’s a little bit, um, you know, a little bit on the more oily side of things. So I think tempura, I think a little bit more of the, maybe your, your more oily fishes. Like fishes, you’re more oily fish, like salmon or tuna. that sounds nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:28
Yeah, well my cup has the lotus root flour on it, so maybe I could do I could do Lotus root tempura and you could do the, Tachibana Citrus Salad. While we’re enjoying sipping on this cup, I have a little kind of a, a description. Of the project from the brewery. Now the, the brewery is owned by the Maeda family and the current Kuramoto owner is, Kumiko Maeda, who is one of, she’s a Toji owner and Kuramoto and,

John Puma: 26:07
Togi and komoto and all in that, that’s don’t see that many of those, but it’s, it’s pretty great when they are able to handle all aspects of the, of the brewery, uh, it’s pretty exciting. Double

Timothy Sullivan: 26:19
it’s amazing. Yeah. And this project has a name, it’s called Nomanne. And it was launched by Kumiko, who’s the fourth generation owner of Koimari Brewery. Uh, and the impetus behind this was to introduce the quality of Japanese sake and the traditional beauty of Imari and Arita porcelain to as many people as possible. So the name Nomanne means lets enjoy a drink in the Imari dialect

John Puma: 26:59
Cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:00
Um, this was inspired by a relatively recent trend in cup sake, which is normally produced in glass cups. And this is just a wonderful collaboration with a local pottery manufacturer to promote not only the sake of the region, but also the beautiful porcelain and ceramics that they have. So, uh, and they’re also tying in the connection to the saga Prefecture. Appellation, using Sake Rice. A hundred percent grown in saga Prefecture. So they’ve got all, this is a full court press of promotion for Saga Prefecture, right.

John Puma: 27:39
Yeah. They’re putting it all, putting it all on the line.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:42
Oh my gosh. I’m finding myself like going back and sipping and sipping and normally when we’re recording, you know, we’ll take a sip and we’ll go on blah, blah, blah. But I’m just finding myself just keep reaching back for this cup. It’s so elegant to hold and the acidity is the surprising. Component of this sake. I was not expecting that at all. Oh my gosh.

John Puma: 28:05
And I’ve had a couple of different sakes from koimari before, and not like this. This is not like anything else I’ve tasted from them. I’ve never known them to play with this high acidity stuff. And maybe, you know, maybe we just don’t get. Their, um, you know, their, their junmais or what have you. But this is a super fun, interesting thing. I wanna see more of it. Like, it’s really good. I think there’s a, you know, I, they’ve been dipping their toe in the market here and I’m glad to see it, but I would love to see them do more. Like, this is great.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:37
And John, I don’t think you’ll be surprised by this, but this, koimari, no Nomanne Cup also won a prize for, uh. Attractive Japanese souvenir contest.

John Puma: 28:49
Oh,

Timothy Sullivan: 28:50
Yes. In two, in 2007, this project won a prize as, uh, one of the most attractive Japanese souvenirs, and I think it’s well deserved. I would give this as a souvenir. I love this thing.

John Puma: 29:03
Yeah, absolutely.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:05
Yeah. So, this has been around for several years. This, Imari Cup, one Cup project, and. I think I bought one of these in Japan years ago, just out of pure curiosity, but I don’t remember which one I bought. I don’t remember what happened to the cup, but it is so wonderful that it’s now coming to the states. Like that’s the big difference is that these cups are now being exported to the us. You can, uh, buy them here now and. The description here says that when you’re done drinking, you could use the cup as a vase or a pen holder.

John Puma: 29:44
I mean, I plan to use this as a cup to drink sake out of when I’m done drinking sake out of this,

Timothy Sullivan: 29:49
Yeah,

John Puma: 29:50
uh, because I think it’s a really nice cup. Uh, but yes, I guess it could also be a pen holder if you were so inclined.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:58
yeah. Yep. I went through a phase where I collected one cups.

John Puma: 30:03
Me too.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:04
Yeah, I, I think everyone does. I mean, they’re so, they can be so cute. Right.

John Puma: 30:08
And then you come up, you come to this place where you have way too many you realize you’re not using them for anything except maybe decoration. And then at that point you still have too much for decoration and you need to make some decisions.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:22
Yes, I did a purge a few years back and I kept some sentimental one cups and I have, I do use a one cup as a pen holder on my desk, but it is the original hakkaisan, the old school Hakkaisan futsushu. One cup that they made years ago.

John Puma: 30:45
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:47
They’ve since redesigned it and changed it, but I have one of the original ones from almost 20 years ago that is the old school design. And just as a nod to my connection to hakkaisan, I have that as my pen holder on my desk. And then in my China cabinet, I have some one cups that I are just too cute to give away. Too

John Puma: 31:08
I understand. I understand.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:11
There’s some really cute ones out there.

John Puma: 31:13
So will this one dethrone your Hakkaisan cup as the new pen holder?

Timothy Sullivan: 31:18
I don’t think I’m gonna turn this into a pen holder. I’m with you. I wanna, I wanna use this to drink out of from time to time, and I love that it has the little lid, but you’re right, the lid is not watertight. So this is just, this is just a gentle. Covering. But if you’re keeping something chilled in the fridge and it’s not gonna be jostled around, it’s perfect. And, this is great, but do you know what the problem is? Is that now I want to collect all five. So this is a problem.

John Puma: 31:50
See? Yeah. This is, this is where the issue lies. You see, you’ve, look what happened. You got you hand on one cup and you’re already like, I need ’em all.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:58
Yeah.

John Puma: 31:59
So we are very fortunate that this is actually not a gotcha, because then you would’ve bought like 25.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:06
This is a gotcha moment.

John Puma: 32:07
Yes, the definitely gotcha moment. Wonderful.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:12
John, do you feel a little elegant? Do you feel Bonita?

John Puma: 32:16
I do actually, and I have to say like, you know, uh, I still don’t feel funky. I do not.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:22
Okay. Okay.

John Puma: 32:23
stand, my ground and say, this is maybe not funky, but honestly, the sake ended up being the funkiest thing with that high acidity. It was really interesting and fun.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:31
Yeah, maybe this could be a, uh, secret, underground, funky sake episode, parading as a funky packaging.

John Puma: 32:40
us. We had no idea. My favorite thing is when we, I love when we have the sakes, and neither of us have tasted them before and we’re like, whoa, what the hell this is? It’s always a lot of fun.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:52
Yeah. Well, uh, just one last reminder to all our listeners is that if you’ve been listening to us talk about these designs, be sure to check out our show notes. We’ll have beautiful photos of all the designs and, you can check these out for yourself. ’cause a picture is worth a thousand words. John, it has been.

John Puma: 33:11
think we said a thousand words, so that’s good.

Timothy Sullivan: 33:16
Well, John, it’s been great to taste with you and I am so happy to try a sake that both you and I have never had before. Makes for very fun and exciting tasting. And, uh, this was just great and I really think this packaging is gonna be very successful here in the States. And I hope all our listeners check it out. I wanna, Say thank you to all of our listeners and especially our special community on Patreon. If you’re enjoying Sake Revolution and you’d like to support this podcast, the best way to do that is join us on Patreon. You can visit patreon.com/sake revolution to learn about supporting our show and joining our monthly live happy hour, which is so much fun.

John Puma: 34:03
It is.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:04
Yes, so please. Yeah. So please check it out and we hope you’ll join our community.

John Puma: 34:10
Yes. And, we want to hear from you. So you can contact us over at feedback@sakerevolution.com and give us that feedback directly. You can also get us on social media. Tim will happily take your, your dms, uh, over on, uh, Instagram and other platforms. So I hope everybody’s got a, a cup handy. so until next time, please remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai.

Episode 185. With 2025 over and done, it’s time to take a look back at the sake year that was. Join us this week for some casual sipping and some discussion on the highlights, surprises and challenges of this past year’s sake adventures. It’s also the moment of truth to review our “Sake Revolution Resolutions” – Did we achieve our goals? Whatever the outcome, we look forward to another year of great sake and many kanpais. We also announce some goals and plans for this year! Wishing you good sake in 2026! #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Hosts Welcome and Introduction
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 2:24 Sake tasting: Brooklyn Kura Kita Shizuku

Brooklyn Kura Kita Shizuku

Brewery: Brooklyn Kura
Alcohol: 16.5%
Classification: Junmai
Location: Brooklyn
Rice: Hokkaido Kita Shizuku
Brand: Brooklyn Kura
Seimaibuai: 65%

---

Skip to: 13:28 Sake Revolution Resolutions

---

Skip to: 33:05 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Support us on Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s First Sake podcast. And I’m your host, John Puma. From the Sake Notes, also the administrator over at the Internet Sake Discord. Uh, and that guy who runs, uh, Reddit’s R slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:36
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And John and I will be here always tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:54
Well, hello Tim and happy New Year.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:57
Happy New Year. John, you, you took, you took the words outta my mouth.

John Puma: 1:00
I did. Aha. Uh, yeah. Uh, happy New Year. This is, uh, our, our little traditional first episode of the new year. We try to wrap up the previous year, and we talk a little bit about the things we set out to do. Things we accomplished, things that maybe we didn’t accomplish, and then what we’re planning to do, uh, for this year. And we’ll get to that, and, and whatnot in a little bit. But, but Tim, I don’t know about you. I am, I’m thirsty. The new year has me, has me thirsty.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:32
I think John, we have to do a Kanpai at the beginning to celebrate the end of 2025 and to welcome in 2026.

John Puma: 1:40
Wow. I, I think that, uh, longtime listeners will, will be shocked by that, but somewhere, somewhere the sake ninja is smiling.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:50
All right, well, let’s get our sake open to our Kanpai, and then we can introduce what we’re drinking.

John Puma: 1:56
Sure. Um, sounds good to me.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:59
All right, jp. Well, here’s to an outstanding 2026

John Puma: 2:05
Yeah, let’s, let’s, let’s make it happen. Kanpai.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:10
All right. Now this is one of those fun episodes where you and I are drinking the same thing. So please let our listeners know what we selected for our year end review episode for 2025.

John Puma: 2:24
we are in fact drinking the same thing. And it is, a new, a new batch, a new fun little batch from Brooklyn Kura. Called, Kita Shizuku. Shockingly it is named because the rice is, uh, Kita Shizuku Rice from, uh, Hokkaido. This is, I think the first time they’re doing something like this. And this bottle is not that widely available. I think you can buy it at the tap room and I think you can, you would’ve received it if you are on their subscription list, their kin. But yeah, I, I, the nice thing about, about this sort of thing is they’ll do these small batches and, try stuff out and, this is one of those, and it’s a lot of fun.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:02
Yeah, this is, big news because Brooklyn Kura has never used sake rice from Japan before, and this is our first time making sake with Japanese rice, and it’s from Hokkaido and a little bit of inside intel. We have a.

John Puma: 3:25
Intel. Ooh.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:27
we have a brewer from Japan, uh, Mr. Ume Hara, who is, full-time brewer working at Brooklyn Kura, and he’s from Hokkaido originally.

John Puma: 3:39
Oh, really?

Timothy Sullivan: 3:39
Yeah. Yeah. So. That I think inspired the location of the, where the rice came from. And as you mentioned, this is a kin selection, so that’s their subscription service. It’s not super widely available, as you mentioned, but it is available in the tap room. And if you are a member at Brooklyn Kura, you can get, get this bottle. Uh, but why don’t we, Let our listeners know what we think about the taste here. So, this is, um, something that, uh, is very unique in the world of Brooklyn Kura’s orbit to sake. Rice from Japan. Yeah.

John Puma: 4:16
so I’ve actually had, Kita Shizuku from another. American Sake Brewery in the past,

Timothy Sullivan: 4:23
Oh.

John Puma: 4:23
many, uh, many moons ago, I would say maybe four years, or actually five years ago, um, when I was in Hawaii Islander sake, was using Kita Shizuku from, uh, from Hokkaido as well. And I thought it was one of their, best sakes that they had available for us at the time. It was really, really good. So I was extremely excited when I heard that, uh, Brooklyn Kura got their hands on some, so let’s talk first about the aroma.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:50
Hmm.

John Puma: 4:51
It’s a little, I get like, um, it’s hard to describe it. It’s like the, the aroma’s almost like it, it makes me think of sweet things.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:00
Hmm. For me, I get a little vegetal note, like a little, something, leafy green or a little vegetal. There’s some rice in there too. And, I, I get what you’re saying. There’s a little bit of, compacted sweetness as

John Puma: 5:16
Yeah. Yeah. And, and for whatever reason with my, my sinuses, it’s like going right for it. It’s like I, I detect that sweetness and I, uh, immediately latch on.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:27
The flavor profile on the palate is for me, more like rice forward and, uh, not fruity or juicy. Too much, but, um, it’s a little bit cleaner than most Brooklyn Kura, Brooklyn. Kura tends to be more fruit forward, juicy and viscous in texture, a little richer in texture. And this is leaner. This is, um, not dry on the finish, but more balanced and definitely rice forward. I know that the parents of Kita Shizuku Rice are Ginpu and Omachi. So these are the two rices that were blended together to make Kita Shizuku. And you know, this has you can kind of see the resemblance to Omachi a little bit. Like it’s got, that Rice-y earthy, but it’s, it’s a little bit more restrained than. Full on Omachi Rices, I think.

John Puma: 6:29
I agree wholeheartedly and. Well, you know, one thing that’s very interesting to me is that like, you know, as you pointed out, Brooklyn Kura usually goes for a more of a fruity vibe in their sake. It’s kinda what they’re, I’d say, you know what they’re known for in a lot of circles. And when Islander used this rice, they went fruity. But with Brooklyn Kura getting their hands on the rice, they looks like they wanted to showcase the rice and not the Brooklyn Kura fruit. It’s like, you’ve had that already. This is a different product. We want you to try something a little bit different. And I think that’s pretty cool. I like it when. When breweries get outta their comfort zone and, and try, try new things. This is it. This is a really easy drinking. It’s really light to me. And the, as you point out there, there is that rice forward flavor, but it’s a really pleasant, I think if you’ve had rice forward Omachi, and then you just kind of turn it down a few notches, you’re very close to where we’re at here. It’s really nice and very, very drinkable. One thing that’s, very interesting about this is that. in addition to being the first time they’re using rice from Japan, this is rice was actually milled in a, in a different way than probably the rest of the rice they’ve, they’ve used before. So there’s a, thing that’s been popular in the last few years in Japan of a flat milling or flat polishing. They realize that when you try to polish the, the oval. Shape of the rice grain. You don’t always get as much Shinpaku as you want. Um, at least not without milling pretty far. But with the flat milling, which they’re calling, Henpei, they’re able to get more of that starchy, more of that, that Shinpaku, that starchy center and, um, and leave out a little bit more of the fats. While. Doing it in a less labor intensive way, you’re losing less of your product, you’re losing less of your rice. This was only milled to 65%. I’ve seen flat polishing sakes that were very ginjo, that were like 80%. Um, and so, you know, it’s a very interesting technique we talked about in, in episodes past when we talked about rice milling, it’s like if you, if you have 10 kilograms of rice and you mill it down to 50%, you are down to five kilograms of rice effectively. So, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re losing a lot less of it to get to the, the flavor you want.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:52
I’ve got, if you’ll indulge me, I have a great way to think about this. Henpei polishing. Like if you just think about, yeah, if you think about flat polishing, it’s a little hard to envision. So let me lay this on you. So if you imagine. The rice grain starting like an egg shape, right? If you think about one grain of rice and it’s rounded, maybe you can envision it shaped like an egg. In traditional polishing, you’re gonna put it through this mill, which drops it over a milling stone again and again, and at the end of the day, you end up with something that’s like baseball shaped, you know? So you go from egg shape to baseball shape, but with the. Henpei process, it’s milled in a different way and you get a football shape instead of a, baseball shape. So it flattens the grain out and preserves more of the Shinpaku more of the core on the edges of it. So, uh, I’ve found that, you know, using these analogies of like baseball to football, you get more of a visual of what you’re gonna end up with.

John Puma: 10:00
I like that. And of course, the shape of a football is much more similar to an egg than, than a baseball is.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:06
Yeah, so there’s, there’s kind of like less waste of Shinpaku. Yeah.

John Puma: 10:12
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:13
Yeah. And

John Puma: 10:14
I think it’s a, it’s a, it’s, I love technology.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:19
and this rice was, um. It was able to be brought over because of the rice factory. Have you heard of the Rice factory?

John Puma: 10:28
Yeah. Well actually I looked them up when I saw this, and, it turns out that, if I wanted to get some, some eating rice from like Toyama, I can order it from them. They’ve got it. so yeah, they’re bringing, japanese rice, and selling it to America. And they’re milling it like they’re doing the milling it themselves. They’re milling it, uh, to order from what I understand. And, and you can kind of choose like where you want it from, which I think is like really cool. Not like literally every brief fixture, but they’ve got quite a few. Nice little selection.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:59
Yeah, so the rice factory is like a rice importer, and they do the milling, and as you said, you can order, the rice from different prefectures. The town where I lived in Niigata is very famous for rice and they import that regularly. So if you’re interested in like high-end eating rice from Japan, which I highly recommend. The, the rice factory is where it’s at, and here in New York, it’s available in all the Japanese supermarkets. They have rice from the rice factory and they put, they put the import date and the milling date, and it’s all on the label. It’s in brown craft paper, brown bags, and uh, it’s really, I highly recommend them. They make great, they bring in great rice.

John Puma: 11:40
and Tim is not overselling it. when I visited Tim at Hakkaisan a few years back, uh, we had a meal at the, um, at the, at the company. Cafeteria, is that the right way to put it? The company. Cafeteria. Brewery. Cafeteria. Um, and one of the, you know, one of the dishes was just a bowl of rice and I was kinda like, just a plain bowl of rice, huh? Okay. And then I tasted it and I was like, oh, this rice needs nothing. It, this rice is by itself is phenomenal. This is great. I kept going on and on about the rice. I was very happy with it.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:12
Yeah. It’s one thing I I miss the most from Japan is the rice, but through the rice factory, we can get some of those rices here, so That’s amazing.

John Puma: 12:21
And, and apparently if you’re a sake brewery, you can also make sake with the rice from them.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:26
Yeah. There’s a lot of, a lot of crossover there. It’s very

John Puma: 12:29
Yeah. no, that was lovely. And Tim, thank you very much for tasting with me and, and Kanpai-ing with me. So, so now I gotta ask you, how was, um, how was your 2025 from a Sake Revolution standpoint?

Timothy Sullivan: 12:45
Yeah, it was good. I think you and I were both very busy in our careers

John Puma: 12:51
Yes, very much so.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:53
Our personal lives as well. A lot going on. So we may not have gotten as many episodes out as we wanted or as we have in the past, but, quality over quantity, right, jp?

John Puma: 13:06
I think so. I think so. Definitely quality over quantity, because the quantity of what was was, was,

Timothy Sullivan: 13:14
Yeah. But, but I will say this, we are still going like. That is the main thing. Like we are still at it.

John Puma: 13:22
We may, we may occasionally slow, but we never stop.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:26
That’s right.

John Puma: 13:27
So, uh, jumping into the way back machine, I want to, I want to take us back to the beginning of 2025. We had lofty plans for this year. Your Sake Revolution resolution, if I’m not mistaken, was that you wanted to start doing some, some back to basics education episodes. And you know what, we did it, we got it in right under the buzzer. That was the last episode we published in 2025. Um, did you actually publish that on, on New Year’s Eve

Timothy Sullivan: 14:03
Maybe. Depends what time zone you’re in. But

John Puma: 14:06
very well. Very well.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:07
so we did it. We got it done. That’s, I think that’s one of the good things about resolutions is that, you know, there, there is a time limit and if you want to make something happen, the time limit comes, if you get it done. I think that’s the important thing. Like the accomplishment is the important thing. And, I did wait till the last minute, but it still got done and I’m happy about that. So on a technicality, on a technicality.

John Puma: 14:37
The rule is 2025. You did it. There’s no, there’s no technicality here. This is the, you didn’t fudge the numbers. This, no, no, no, no, no. If you flew to Alaska to release the episode because you were running outta time, then maybe I’d say technicality, but you didn’t. It was perfect.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:56
Yeah. Yeah. By the skin of my teeth.

John Puma: 14:59
Yes, absolutely.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:01
But it got done and I, I, the, the thing that I’m happy about is that the impetus behind the resolution was to bring back the topics that are of concern to people who are beginners or just getting into sake. And there are more and more and more of those all the time. So I think. Our podcast should be a resource for people who are, um, getting into sake and need help with the first steps.

John Puma: 15:34
I agree. Um, and, and so yeah, I think that every now and again, revisiting, and I think we’ve talked about how, you know, maybe, maybe we’ve gotten a little bit better at this too, I hope. We to go back and listen to those, those first episodes. And, woo, I was a little rough. I think you sound the same, but I think I, I was definitely a little rough. Um, but yeah, good times. Um, now on my end of things, um, and this, this story brings us back to the 2024 or I failed to, uh, complete my resolution. And so what I did for 2025 was I did two. I said I was gonna do two resolutions, and you know, for a moment, did I think, John, are you biting off more than you can chew? Yes, I did. I did think that, but I did it for the most part. and, and this one probably a little, probably a few more caveats on mine than there were on yours. But, In my case, I was gonna do two things. One, I was gonna take a photo of every bottle of sake that I had a glass of this year. And by that I mean if I have like a sip at a tasting event, I’m not taking a picture of the bottle.’cause the tasting events, there are hundreds of sakes and I’m not doing that. and the other thing was I was gonna engage in some formal sake education. That was the other thing I was going to do. And I did both of them.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:54
Congratulations. Tell me, tell me more. Tell me

John Puma: 16:58
So, I now have a, uh, w set level one sake, award certification, what are they calling it? Certification. Thank you. And I’ve got a nice little, I’ve got a nice little certificate and I’ve got a pin. did it. I, I did the thing. And the other thing I did was take a lot of photos of sake. we came out with 306 pictures, but some of the pictures have more than one bottle in them,

Timothy Sullivan: 17:23
Yeah.

John Puma: 17:25
and I haven’t gone through to figure out where that comes from. There are, I will say this up front, a couple of evenings where something’s escaped.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:34
That’s all right.

John Puma: 17:35
But they were fun evenings. They were wonderful, exciting, fun evenings that I’m just missing pictures of and perhaps memories. No, that’s not true. Uh, I do remember, I just didn’t take photos anyway. Um, so yeah, that, so we did it. We, both accomplished our stated objectives. Now, we didn’t make a sake revolution, show resolution last year.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:03
No, I guess well,

John Puma: 18:05
I guess yours

Timothy Sullivan: 18:05
mine mine was tied to the show.

John Puma: 18:08
Yeah. okay. but I guess now the question is what are we gonna do

Timothy Sullivan: 18:12
Hmm. Oh yeah. The ever, the ever evolving revolution resolution question is, is at our doorstep

John Puma: 18:23
Yes, it, it’s back. And I’ll tell you, I agonized for a while about mine

Timothy Sullivan: 18:27
Really

John Puma: 18:28
because you wanna do something big and outside of your comfort zone and fun, but you don’t wanna do something that you aren’t going to actually accomplish and therefore end up having to do two in 2027. So. So I tried my best to, uh, to come up with something, um, realistic, achievable, but tricky. Um, what about you? What did you do?

Timothy Sullivan: 18:56
well my 2025. Resolution was related to the show, and I think for 2026, I’m gonna do something that’s still connected to sake, but a little bit closer to home. A little bit more personal.

John Puma: 19:09
Alright. Okay. Did you kind of know what you wanted to do right away or was this something you had to kind of think about a bit?

Timothy Sullivan: 19:15
No, I thought about it quite a bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Puma: 19:18
So I guess the question now is who’s gonna go first?

Timothy Sullivan: 19:20
yeah, you go first.

John Puma: 19:22
Ah, all right. Um, uh, this year I am going to challenge myself to. In one way or another, participate in making sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:33
Hmm.

John Puma (2): 19:34
And I have a few avenues open to me for this. I can try Home Brewing, or I can talk to one of my friendly neighborhood brewer friends and ask them if they have a couple of days that they wouldn’t mind me around and doing some things. or, there are some Education opportunities that involve brewing sake, uh, that I could look into as well. So I’d have options available to me, but I have not figured out how I’m going to brew sake yet, And, and you know, if I do something like that, then it’s, you know, my expectation will not be that I make something from, you know, from washing to bottling. I think that’s a little unrealistic, but, uh, I do think that I would need to get, you know, sufficient hands-on as a result of the, of, of the project. So, you know, pitching the yeast doesn’t, is not enough. But I, what if I were to work on Koji and then also, stirring work on monitoring or pressing something like that. I don’t know. You know, I would have to be a substantial part of making a batch, I think, in order for it to count. And then of course, the, like I mentioned earlier, the other avenue is of course, home brewing. So we’ll figure it out. We’ll figure out what’ll make for, uh, a good story for the show. Yeah. So, so that’s what I’m gonna try and do this year, Tim. Uh, so what about you? What are you gonna do?

Timothy Sullivan: 20:50
Well, well wait before we go there. What? What?

John Puma: 20:54
I’m just trying to speed right through.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:56
No, no, no. I’m not gonna let you off the hook. So what I’ve, I have made sake. In the past, I’ve worked at a brewery.

John Puma: 21:06
For a year you worked at a

Timothy Sullivan: 21:08
and it’s not fun and it’s really hard to produce like super yummy sake. So I’m wondering what’s the motivation, to be the person in the brewery making sake what’s like, what’s, what’s your idea behind the motivation?

John Puma: 21:24
Um, I think it’ll be highly educational. I think that you understand something. Better when you have had your hands in it.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:34
Yeah.

John Puma: 21:34
You know, I’m sure you’ve done cooking before and you, I think you appreciate a dish a lot more when you’ve been in the kitchen helping prep that dish because you understand. What goes into making it, you understand where the variables are a little bit more, where things can go wrong. Um, you know, what, what influences it and you, you understand it in a real way that is more than reading it in a book or watching somebody else.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:01
Yeah.,

John Puma: 22:01
You know, I feel like hands-on education is super important. Uh, and I think I will get a much better appreciation for, for a lot of aspects of sake that perhaps I didn’t before, I’ll, maybe, it’s hard to know because I don’t, I, my, my thought is I’m going to learn things and I, because I don’t know them yet, I don’t know what I’m going to learn. It just seems like a really fun thing to do. Um, and it seems like something that will, um, really help me understand sake better.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:27
I applaud that. I think that’s great. And that’s exactly why I moved to Japan for a year and I lived in rural Niigata and. Made sake for one year is because, not because I wanted to become a brewer, but because I wanted to be in the trenches and I wanted to learn what physically goes into making sake. And I can tell you it. Really ramps up your appreciation. When you get your hands on a good sake, you’re like, wow. Like they worked hard on this one. So, uh, I respect that a lot and I think it’s a great goal. Uh, so I’m excited to see how it works out in your year. Like what, what path you take.

John Puma: 23:13
By the way, everybody at home There’s no scenario where I’m going, where my plan is to move to Japan for a year. That is not in the cards, is not part of the equation. It is not even, uh, no, it’s not in the same league. It’s not even the same sport.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:26
Well, there’s lots of ways to experiment with sake brewing. Lots of home brewers and lots of breweries around New York, so I’m sure you’ll, you’ll find a way to make it happen. It’s exciting.

John Puma: 23:39
I’m excited. I think it’s gonna be fun. Um, win, lose, or draw. It’ll be fun.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:45
Okay.

John Puma: 23:47
So now what about you?

Timothy Sullivan: 23:51
Okay. So for me, I have, been running urban sake for 20 years.

John Puma: 23:59
No kidding. Is it

Timothy Sullivan: 24:00
Yes, it’s 20. Yes. So this, we are currently in the 20th year of Urban Sake, and one thing that I used to produce was a sake tasting notebook, and I have a resolution this year to re-release it and start selling it again on my website. During the pandemic. It kind of went the way of all things and I. You know, didn’t, didn’t put any priority on it, but I’ve come to, have the idea that I think it would be something that’s really good to bring back. So for 2026, I wanna bring back a new and improved version of my sake tasting notebook. And it. I have a lot of ideas to make it better and make it more fun and make it something that people can purchase and, I can’t give away all the details right now, but. It’s exciting to think about different ways I can, make, uh, recording your notes about sake more engaging, fun, and interesting. And it is a totally analog solution. I’m not doing an app, I’m not doing anything online. But, yeah, so. In 2026, I want to release, uh, the version 2.0 of the Urban Sake tasting notebook with all the new bells and whistles, and it’ll be a celebration of 20 years of Urban Sake.

John Puma: 25:31
That is fantastic. I hope there’s some like 20th anniversary signage on the cover. I think that would be fun.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:39
that’s, that’s my goal. I think that it’s something that is a very, very small contribution to the sake community. Something that people can pick up, not too expensive, and something they can bring with them in their bag and keep their notes in an old school way. And I really. Loved doing that when I was learning about sake. So I want to get that back out there in the world and, um, I’ve had time to think about ways that I can improve the product and make it even more fun to try different sakes, and I’m really excited to, to get that back out there. So I’ll talk about that more in the future.

John Puma: 26:20
Very cool. Very cool. I like it. Now there’s something else we’re gonna have to talk about.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:24
Oh yeah.

John Puma: 26:25
yeah. So in addition to our personal revolution resolutions, there’s something else we wanna do and that is to have a sake revolution resolution for sake. Revolution and, yeah. So, uh, Tim, how do you wanna, how do you wanna break this one? How do you wanna talk about this?

Timothy Sullivan: 26:47
well, we have been doing the podcast for five years.

John Puma: 26:53
God, really?

Timothy Sullivan: 26:54
I know. Yes. Five years. And, one thing that I like about what we’ve done over the last five years is that we’ve. Been evolving and growing and changing and adapting. Our way of doing things, seeing what works, what doesn’t work. And you and I have talked a lot about the format of the show and we think that there are some ways that, uh, this year we can evolve the show, uh, to make it even better and more interactive for our listeners. And, uh, yeah. So.

John Puma: 27:31
are we gonna do that?

Timothy Sullivan: 27:32
Yeah. Well there’s one word

John Puma: 27:36
Oh

Timothy Sullivan: 27:36
that, yeah, one word. So this year, I’m not gonna say exactly when, but at some point in this year, we’re, we’re, our plan is to evolve sake revolution from an audio only podcast to a video podcast. How do you like them Apples, John.

John Puma: 27:56
one thing that I I’ve noticed is that, you know, obviously a good looks are wasted on radio and that, uh, this is, you’ve, you’ve clearly done the research and that’s the feedback you got. And who am I?

Timothy Sullivan: 28:10
Yes,

John Puma: 28:10
To debate the wisdom of crowds.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:15
give the masses what they want.

John Puma: 28:17
you know, and by the way, I like that pivot to video was like a big thing in like 2015 and 2016, but now in 2026, we’re getting around to it.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:25
Yeah, no one’s ever accused us of jumping ahead of the curve.

John Puma: 28:29
no, no. I think it’s more important to do, uh, tried and true, uh, technique rather than leaping ahead.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:38
Yeah, so maybe we can talk about why we think adding a video component and, and the first thing, first thing to say for all of our listeners is that if you are an audio podcast listener. There is not gonna be any change for you. We’re still gonna release the podcast as an audio only version, so we are adding, in addition, a video component that you’ll be able to see on YouTube and on video on Spotify as well. So, uh, we’re gonna be making an addition of video, but if you like the audio version and that’s what you want to consume, then that will not be changing. Right

John Puma: 29:15
Right, Right, Exactly. Now, there may be situations where we make reference to something in our hands that, that, uh, you can’t see, but that’s what the show notes are for, I imagine. Uh,

Timothy Sullivan: 29:27
Yeah,

John Puma: 29:27
and, and I, and I figure there’ll probably be a touch less, um, a touch less editing involved because it’s trickier to edit video.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:36
it is. It’s a different, it’s a different ball of wax, you know?

John Puma: 29:40
a different beast. A lot more preparation and a lot less forgiveness when you screw up.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:46
Yes. Well, maybe we can reveal that maybe before the middle of the year.

John Puma: 29:56
Tim, Tim, we said that it’s this year’s resolution. This could, this could happen on New Year’s Eve next year. We don’t know.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:02
That’s right. We have to give ourselves a long runway.

John Puma: 30:05
Yes, yes. However, no, no. All kidding aside, is something that we would like to do, somewhere around midyear. I think we think that would be, a lot of fun and we think it’s something that’s doable with enough. Prep.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:18
Yeah, and we’re also very excited to welcome guests on the show and have them appear in video. I think that’s really exciting. Yeah, and there have been video episodes of many different sake podcasts, but when we convert to video full-time, I think we’re gonna be the world’s first video podcast dedicated to sake. So that’s super

John Puma: 30:42
so, yeah. I think it’s gonna be fun. It’s gonna be a good time.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:47
Yeah.

John Puma: 30:49
I hope people are ready to seem to see, Sunday evening, scruffy face, John Puma, because, uh,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:57
John, that is why the good Lord invented the beauty filter. We’re we, we can. Yes. Oh, I’m letting all the secrets out. I’m letting all the secrets out. No, no, no. We’re gonna, we’re gonna keep it real. I think it’s really exciting. I’ve listened back to some of our shows and we have had things like we’ve talked about labels or we’ve talked about different places and, you know, we had to describe what we’re looking at, but. With the video podcast, we will be able to really show. And honestly, that’s what I’m really excited about. If we, yeah, if we have a, a really unique label we’re looking at, we can show it. If we’re talking about a place in Japan, we can throw up some B roll and show what that looks like, and yeah, and you gotta learn the lingo.

John Puma: 31:50
I know, I know. I know the, I know the lingo. I was just surprised to hear it from you. Don’t forget that, that I was doing video a long time ago. I was doing video before I did this. Video’s hard, The sake

Timothy Sullivan: 32:04
It’s hard. What are we doing? It is hard.

John Puma: 32:07
I think it’s gonna be fun and, uh, I’m excited to about the future. I’m excited about the 2026 sake revolution. Adventure.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:16
Yes. I think it’s gonna be a great year. We’ve got our plans laid out ahead of us. I don’t know if am, am I required to drink the sake you’re gonna be making? I might need some coercing there.

John Puma: 32:30
Um, I will make that call after I’ve tasted it.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:34
Oh, okay. Good. Alright.

John Puma: 32:36
think it’s something that I want other people, other humans to experience. I will share it if I do not, and if it just quietly disappears. We will talk. It’ll be a fun story.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:46
Yeah, well whatever you do, just document what you do and the the, it’ll be like sake journalism, you know. We’ll, we’ll find out good, bad, or ugly. We’ll find out what happens with John Puma’s Moromi.

John Puma: 33:02
Oh yeah, ma. That’ll be a little mini series.

Timothy Sullivan: 33:07
All right. Well, I’m, I’m so happy to have our plan laid out for 2026, and I wanna say a special thank you to all of our listeners who tuned in today and all of our listeners who’ve been with us for five years. That is amazing. I know. Just fantastic. So if you’ve been a long time listener, special thank you. To you today and stay with us for 2026 and our launch into video podcasting in the near future. I also want to say a special, very special hello to all of our supporters who join us from Patreon. If you enjoy the Sake podcast revolution, one of the best ways to support what we do here. Uh, we present this all without ads and. Sponsorships. But we do have a Patreon to help support our efforts here. And we have a wonderful team in our community at Patreon who support the show month in and month out. And we wanna send a very special thank you for all your support in 2025, and we’re looking forward to a fun and exciting 2026. If you’d like to support the show on Patreon, visit patreon.com/sakerevolution.

John Puma: 34:23
And if, Tim and John on sake revolution isn’t enough, Tim and John for you. Well, we also have social media, so, uh, Tim, where can people find you on social media?

Timothy Sullivan: 34:37
Yeah, the best place to reach me is on urban sake. So that’s my Sake Education website that, uh, you know, I’ve been running for all these years. And the best way to do that is you can visit UrbanSake.com or on Instagram@UrbanSake, and I look forward to hearing from all of you. Thanks so much. And how about you, John?

John Puma: 34:58
on Instagram, uh, you could find me as, uh,@JohnPumaNYC. That tends to be more just like life stuff, although sometimes I’ll, I’ll make some sake in there as well. Um, but the Sake Notes is the account that my wife and I both use to do some sake adventures. We’ll be, we’ll be in Japan. Uh, pretty soon. And, uh, that account gets very active while we’re visiting Japan. So do check it out.

Timothy Sullivan: 35:26
Hey, John, one, one quick question for you before we wrap up. Are you gonna keep your photos going in the new year or have you wrapped that up?

John Puma: 35:35
So the short version is, I haven’t decided yet.

Timothy Sullivan: 35:39
Okay.

John Puma: 35:39
The long version is. I have already taken photos of everything I drank this year. So if I decide to do it, I’m already, I’ve got a great on-ramp, because I’ve already started in a way. So yeah, I, I have been, have been doing it just in case I decide that I’m going to do it. Does that make any sense? Probably not.

Timothy Sullivan: 35:59
it’s good. It’s good to have options. good to have options.

John Puma: 36:02
So, on that note, uh, raise your glass remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai.

Episode 184. With a new year fast approaching—and an astonishing five years of podcasting under our belts—we thought it was the perfect time to go back to basics. In this episode, we revisit some of the cornerstone concepts of sake, offering a concise refresher on ingredients, classifications, and production.

Sake remains a niche category in the world of alcohol, and every day new fans are looking for a clear, approachable foundation. Our hope is that this episode provides helpful insight and practical knowledge to support the beginning—or deepening—of your sake journey.

Here’s to a great new year filled with more sake learning, tasting, and plenty of fun along the way.
#SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 03:54 Back to Basics Introduction

---

Skip to: 04:49 Sake Ingredients

---

Skip to: 08:14 Sake Classifications

---

Skip to: 13:07 Sake Production

---

Skip to: 18:18 Sake Tasting: Brooklyn Kura Tidal, Macho King Yamada

Brooklyn Kura Tidal Junmai

Alcohol: 17.0%
SMV: +3
Brewery: Brooklyn Kura
Production Area: Brooklyn, NY
Classification: Junmai
Importer/Distributor: Skurnik
Rice Type: Calrose
Rice Milling: 50%

Macho King Yamada

Alcohol: 15.0%
Brewery: Makino Shuzo
Prefecture: Gunma
Classification: Junmai
Importer/Distributor: Namazake Paul Imports
Rice Type: Yamadanishiki
Rice Milling: 80%
Acidity: 1.7

---

Skip to: 30:27 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s First Sake podcast. I’m your host, John Puma. I’m from the Sake Notes. Also run the internet sake Discord, as as well as Reddit’s r slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:35
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:51
Oh, hello there, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:54
Hey John, good to see you.

John Puma: 0:55
Likewise. How you doing? I think this is the last episode of the year for us. And how’s your sake year been?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:03
It’s been very good, busy and I’ve been teaching a lot of sake classes, tasting a lot of fun sake, a few trips to Japan and it’s been a great and fun sake year all around. How about for you?

John Puma: 1:17
same here. Had a wonderful time. Ended up going up to Boston for Sake Day, which was a lot of fun. Did I had just the one trip to Japan, though. You’re way ahead of me on that. But it was nice to see you there, which was a lot of fun as well. Yeah, great sake year all around. And I’m really excited about what you,’cause this is a very much a Tim driven. Concept today, what you put together for today and what you wanted to do. And I think it’s a really fun thing and I’m super excited to to get rolling with it. So why don’t we talk about what you’re doing?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:48
Yeah. I teach classes all the time

John Puma: 1:50
I have heard that.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:51
Yes, and it’s a lot of fun. And I love meeting people who are just new, just getting into sake, just starting their sake journey and a shameless plug, but one thing I do is I always recommend our podcast and I realize that. Yeah. And. It’s good for people to listen to if they want to get into sake tasting or learning more about different aspects of sake. But I was thinking about it, and we’ve been doing this for five years now. We started in 2020 and I was thinking we haven’t really gone back and revisited the basics. So I thought that. It might be fun to do one episode around five years in that kind of capsulates all the learnings we had about the basics of sake. So if you find our podcast more recently and you want just a quick primer into what you need to know about the basics to start to dive in and enjoy sake, I think I thought that would be a really fun episode to make. Just a quick overview of what the basics are, how to get started and get your feet wet in sake, so to speak.

John Puma: 3:03
Sounds good to me. Getting my feet wet, i think that like when we started this show. We did a series on, a lot of the a lot of the intricacies of making sake and and that big overview and it’s fun to, to return back to these ideas and to to go over them again for folks who have. Who were not with us at the beginning and haven’t gone back and listened to the first few episodes. I also think that you and I have probably matured as hosts in that time, and I think that maybe the product that we put out today might be better than what we did five years ago.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:39
I feel like a very well matured host. Myself,

John Puma: 3:42
All right.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:44
Like a good piece of cheese. I am well matured. Yes.

John Puma: 3:48
piece of cheese. I’m glad, Tim, that I’m glad you are a good piece of cheese.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:54
Yeah. We, yeah, that, that’s the other you make a really good point, John, because when I would refer people who are just beginners and I’m like, oh, I do this podcast about sake. I’m like, oh, you can start at the beginning. And I realized that, we broke up so much of the sake 1 0 1 stuff over multiple episodes. So if you wanna learn about sake ingredients, you basically have to listen to four episodes to get the whole picture. So I thought, why don’t we do a quick summary of the basics you need to know. This is our back to basics episode. So if you’re just getting into sake and want a quick primer, this is it. So I think we should dive right in.

John Puma: 4:33
That sounds good to me.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:35
Yeah, so John, you’re gonna help me. You’re gonna be the man on the street as usual,

John Puma: 4:42
Hello. Nice to meet you.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:44
so. Man on the street I’ve never met before.

John Puma: 4:48
Yes, I, who is this man?

Timothy Sullivan: 4:49
I think one, one thing that is really important to start with, and I thought about a lot about the progress of these topics. You know, When someone asks you at a cocktail party, give me the five minute rundown. What is sake? I’ve gotten that question before, and I always start with sake, ingredients, what goes into sake. John, you know the answer to this. So tell us what are the ingredients in sake.

John Puma: 5:10
It’s funny. You should say that because just so I don’t forget, I actually have it all printed on a t-shirt. So it

Timothy Sullivan: 5:15
That’s right.

John Puma: 5:17
Yes it is water, rice, yeast, and Koji.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:20
That’s right. And I think water, yeast and rice, we don’t have to go into too much detail. I’ll talk a little bit about rice in a second, but the one that is most unfamiliar to most people is Koji

John Puma: 5:34
I agree. I think that’s the one that throws people for a loop. They’re like, okay, I know what rice is, I know what water is. I’ve got an idea about yeast, but what is Koji?

Timothy Sullivan: 5:44
Yeah, so Koji is a type of mold and it gives off an enzyme that breaks down starch into sugar. So this is how we get sugar out of the starches and rice and the. Analogy in the beer world would be malting grain. So if anyone has a concept of what malt is in the beer the idea of breaking down starch into sugar in the sake world, we do that with this fungus called Koji. And that’s, we don’t need to dive any deeper than that. Just understand that koji is a way that we get enzymes into the mash that break down starch into sugar, and we need that sugar. So that the yeast can convert sugar into alcohol. So that’s our two step fermentation that we have with sake.

John Puma: 6:27
Yeah. Whenever people ask me like, oh like. Why Koji? Like why is not just doing it? And I’m like where do you think the sugar is coming from? Because you need sugar to make alcohol and there is no sugar in rice, so you need something that’s gonna change that. And that’s what the magic of of Koji is making sugar where there was none.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:47
Yes, exactly right. And the only thing I want to say about Rice is that we have some specialty strains of rice that are specific for sake making, and they have a unique characteristic to them. Do you know what that is, John?

John Puma: 7:04
So the important thing about sake rice is that all of your starches are towards the middle,

Timothy Sullivan: 7:09
That’s right.

John Puma: 7:10
towards the center of the rice grain.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:13
Yeah, so we call that shinpaku or the white heart, and it’s a starchy core. So sake rice has this starchy core, and that’s so important because it allows us to mill the rice and isolate the starch in the center. So milling or polishing down rice is one of the key cornerstone concepts in sake. The smaller you mill the rice down, the more premium and the more expensive the sake’s gonna be. So that’s another point I always mention when I’m giving people the quick overview of sake. Rice is milled or polished before brewing, and the smaller you mill the grain, the less of the grain remaining, the more premium and the more expensive the sake’s gonna be.

John Puma: 7:53
Because you’re losing part of the product when you’re milling it down. If you have, if you have 10 kilos of rice and you mill it down to 50%. You have five kilos of rice and so on and so forth. Meanwhile, if you mill it down to, oh, let’s say 75%, you have that much more to work with.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:14
Yeah, that’s exactly right. And that takes us to the next topic, which I think is important, which is sake classifications. And this is a little bit more complicated, but I like to explain that. The smaller you mill the rice, the more premium your sake can be considered. And we have, classifications that are based on the milling ranges. Junmai is the entry level to premium for the pure rice style. And then we have Junmai Ginjo, that’s the middle grade of premium. And for that, the rice has to be milled to 60% or less remaining. And then for the super premium sake, that’s called Junmai Daiginjo. And that is. 50% or less remaining. Those are the three grades on the Junmai Style, and those are sakes that are made with rice, water, yeast, and Koji only. So that is a good place to start if you’re just getting into sake.

John Puma: 9:09
Okay. Now wait a minute, Tim, I know for a fact I’ve heard from people, other people on the street that there’s another kind of sake where there is another ingredient and that is a neutral spirit. What’s that all about?

Timothy Sullivan: 9:23
Yeah, there is another, there’s another chart of classifications which exists in parallel to the Junmai styles, and that’s called Aruten or Alcohol added Sakes. And these sakes have an optional fifth ingredient, which is jozo alcohol or brewer’s alcohol. It is a neutral spirit, as you mentioned, and that is added on the last day of fermentation, and it can affect the flavor, texture, and aroma of the sake. So for beginners, all you need to understand is that some sakes have distilled alcohol added, and this is called the alcohol added style, and some sakes are considered pure rice and they don’t have that added alcohol. And these two systems exist in parallel and one is not considered more delicious or more premium than the other. They are both very delicious styles of sake. And you just need to be aware that some sakes are in the Junmai category, and some are in the alcohol added category.

John Puma: 10:23
Now wait a minute, Tim, we’re adding alcohol to my alcohol. Is that gonna make it higher in alcohol?

Timothy Sullivan: 10:29
That’s perfectly logical, and I hear that all the time, but most sake has water added to it at the time of bottling, so they can bring the alcohol level down, whether it’s the alcohol added or the pure rice style.

John Puma: 10:42
Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:43
Yeah, and let me quickly just mention the classification names for that alcohol added side. The entry level to premium is called Honjozo. That’s 70% or less remaining a little bit different from Junmai. And then we have Ginjo that’s 60% or less remaining. And then Daiginjo, which is the super premium, 50% or less remaining. If you would like to see a chart of these classifications, just visit our show notes at SakeRevolution.com.

John Puma: 11:10
Great. Now my understanding though is that there’s sake that is milled way down much further than 50%. Is that still just called Junmai, Daiginjo or Daiginjo?

Timothy Sullivan: 11:19
Yeah, you can mill or polish your rice down well below 50% remaining There’s sake made with rice polished down to 35% remaining, 23% remaining, 7% remaining. And there was almost an arms race in the sake world a few years ago. How low can you go?

John Puma: 11:38
Yes. I used to call that stunt, seimaibuai just like, like hell. This one is this one is 6%. Ooh. It’s like basically dust at that point.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:49
Yeah. So my, my advice to people just getting into sake is don’t chase the milling rate. Just e experience the sake. Yeah. Experience the sake for what it is, and you’re gonna find styles that you like, that you jive with. And the milling rate is. Interesting supplementary information, and it’s good to know what differentiates honjozo from a Daiginjo. But it shouldn’t lead you necessarily as your very first consideration when picking a sake.

John Puma: 12:20
I agree wholeheartedly. I think that’s something that people get wrapped up in a lot of the time.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:26
Yeah. And when you’re learning about sake, you want something to grab onto. You want something to guide you. And the milling rate is a, it’s a number that you can focus on and I understand it’s only natural to want to find a number and say okay, this is what I have to get the most polished. But it’s really not a recipe for getting the best sake you can get.

John Puma: 12:49
And Maybe at one point it meant a little bit more. But I think that these days, the technique that we have that brewers have they can do so much with without having to make something ridiculously well polished. Even though we talked about that arms race that took place not that long ago.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:07
Yeah, it’s an interesting aspect of sake, but it shouldn’t be the thing that guides all your decisions about which sake to drink. In addition to the ingredients and classifications, I want to give a really brief. Outline into how sake is made. And this is just a quick overview. We basically take rice, we wash it, we soak it, we steam it, and then we take that rice and we do a fermentation starter to get the fermentation kicked off. This is a small batch of sake that takes about two weeks to make in the tank, we put in water, we put in the Koji rice. That’s that. Rice with the mold grown on it. We put regular steamed sake rice and we put all the yeast in on the first day. And this small mini batch of sake is our starter, and that takes about two weeks. And when that is done, we transfer the starter to the large sake tank. We add more water, more koji rice, and more regular steamed sake rice. And then that ferments for about an additional 25 to 30 days. And that’s the main mash. And what’s happening during that time is that starch is breaking down to sugar and then the yeast is in there to eat the sugar and make the alcohol. So it’s a two step fermentation process that is unique in the world of alcohol. It’s really cool when you slow down and study it a little bit, but that is how we get the alcoholic fermentation starch to sugar to alcohol, and then. When we’re done with the fermentation, we press the mash, it gets pasteurized, bottled, we add a little water and then that sake is ready to go.

John Puma: 14:49
Excellent. Excellent. Now how long are we talking from end to end here?

Timothy Sullivan: 14:54
It depends. There are some periods of sake making, like after pressing, you can age between three to six months. Some breweries do that religiously. Some skip that if they wanna release a fresh batch. So anywhere from two to three months generally is the timeframe you’re talking about from beginning to end?

John Puma: 15:14
Okay. Very cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:16
Yeah. And then. The only other thing I would mention is that there are a variety of sake styles beyond the classifications depending on different choices you made during the sake production. And I think there’s a few we should talk about real quick. The first one that I get asked about all the time is nigori sake.

John Puma: 15:37
Yes.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:37
Yes. So a lot of customers call this unfiltered or cloudy style. We don’t say unfiltered on this show, but

John Puma: 15:45
We do not Absolutely true.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:48
technically not unfiltered, it’s coarsely filtered but little bits of rice starch from the mash get into the final product and make it cloudy. That’s a really popular style. And the other one I wanna mention very quickly is nama sake. What is nama sake?

John Puma: 16:03
NAMA is sake that has not been pasteurized, which means that it is still. It’s active in the bottle. It’s still a lot more subject to change as far as flavor goes, and you’ve gotta care for it a little bit differently. Definitely a little bit more than you need to take your regular sake care. So generally speaking with sake, most sake, is relatively shelf stable, although we do always recommend putting it in a refrigerator and keeping it in the dark. But with nama, we strongly recommend that you put in a refrigerator and keep it away from light and keeping it in the dark. Tim did I sum that up pretty well?

Timothy Sullivan: 16:40
You’re hired.

John Puma: 16:41
All right. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:44
So nama, as you said, is our unpasteurized style, and it does need to be refrigerated, but you can get rewarded for that extra effort by having something that’s really juicy and fresh and very zingy and zippy. And two other kinds I wanna mention real quickly are Kimoto and Yamahai. These are styles that use an old school. Yeast starter method, and these produce more earthy, funky and bold, umami driven sakes, traditionally. Kimoto, Yamahai, nama, and nigori, these are all styles that you can look out for. And these styles are based on. Production steps. So they’re separate from the classifications we talked about earlier. So you can have a Junmai nama, you can have a Junmai Daiginjo nigori. You can mix and match these based on what the brewery’s producing. That’s another thing I’d like to point out is the difference between classifications, that’s rice milling and ingredients, and the styles. Those are production steps that affect the outcome of the sake. All right.

John Puma: 17:47
That was a sprint through the steps of what is sake a sprint through the basics of sake, just as promised. And I think that you should be rewarded for your efforts by getting to sip some delicious sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:00
Yeah, so you and I both brought. So the brief was if you were gonna introduce someone to sake who was just getting started and gonna hear this 15, 20 minute introduction let’s bring a sake along to taste with them and is it all right if I introduce the sake I brought.

John Puma: 18:17
Absolutely.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:18
Absolutely. Yeah. So I brought a bottle from Brooklyn Kura. So this is a domestic sake, and this is made right here in New York City. The one that I brought is one of the new Brooklyn Kura Junmai sakes. This is called Tidal. It’s made with a hundred percent Calrose rice. That’s a domestically grown eating rice that’s grown in California. And the polishing rate, the amount that they milled this down is 50% remaining. The alcohol percentage is 17% and the sake meter value is plus three and. Tidal refers to the ebb and flow of the tides and the connection between the earth and water. And Junmai is the entry level to premium, and it is a great place to start when you’re introducing people to sake. I love to taste them on a junmai. It introduces the concept of pure rice sake. And this is the one of the. Entry level classifications and it gets people grounded in sake and gives them a great first introduction to the pure rice style. So that’s why I chose the new title from Brooklyn Kura.

John Puma: 19:32
I like that.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:33
And what do you have, John?

John Puma: 19:34
So I have something, it’s a little bit new to the States, but it is a sake that I always recommend. Whenever somebody’s oh, what should I’m going to Japan, what should I try? And I always say, oh, if you see this sake, you should definitely have it.’cause I think it’s a great and a great intro sake. I think that it’s a, it has, it, it paints a wide. Paints with a wide brush we’ll say. So this is the macho King, yamada Junmai. Now, we talk a lot about, on this show about sake, rice varieties and Yamadanishiki is the most popular sake rice that’s made that’s used in Japan for premium sake. And so king, it’s sometimes referred to as the king of sake rice. So King Yamada. Haha, you This is from Makino Sake Brewery in Gunma. It’s apparently the oldest sake brewery in Gunma. This Yamadanishiki is milled down to 80% of its original size, so it’s a little less polished than usual. The acidity is 1.7 and the alcohol is 15%. So yeah. Tim, why don’t we get that Tidal in a glass?

Timothy Sullivan: 20:43
Yeah. So one thing I wanna point out, John, is that the milling rate on your sake and my sake are very different, but they’re both sold as Junmais.

John Puma: 20:51
That is absolutely true.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:52
Mine is 50% remaining, which we mentioned was the threshold for Junmai Daiginjo. But one thing about this classification chart is that you’re not required as a brewer to move up to the highest level you qualify for with your milling. So the brewers can choose to. Once they meet that minimum requirement, they can choose to sell it in whatever of the classifications they feel best, identifies their sake. So if it’s uh, usually more rice forward, more structured they may sell it as a Junmai, even if it qualifies as a Junmai Ginjo or beyond. You have an 80% milling rate, which is very rustic and very full-bodied, especially for Yamadanishiki. I have a 50% on my Junmai, so keep that in mind. Again, we can’t be slaves to the rice milling percentage. No.

John Puma: 21:43
I like that we brought that up earlier, that the rice milling percentage really needs to be something you don’t marry yourself to.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:48
Yeah. Okay, so I’ve got my title. I’m gonna get it in the glass.

John Puma: 21:52
Or I’m gonna get my macho in the glass

Timothy Sullivan: 21:55
Macho, what a great name.

John Puma: 21:57
is and when you look at the show notes, please please do. These labels are, it’s like a cartoony graphic of a, of an, of a, an older man flexing, and in this case, because it is the Amada, he has a crown because he’s the king.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:12
The king.

John Puma: 22:13
I.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:15
All right, I have my Tidal, Junmai in the Glass. I’m gonna give this a smell. So the aroma is relatively light here. It’s not super strong, a little more reserved, but it is a rice forward. And if you think about calrose is actually an eating rice that you know is used a lot in the states. And you get a little bit of that hint of rice aroma. It wouldn’t be Brooklyn Kura if it was, there wasn’t a hint of some fruitiness as well. So it’s a good blend of a gentle very light tropical fruit and some ricey-ness. How about Mr. Macho?

John Puma: 22:54
Mr. Macho is is fruity. The aroma is very like pineapple, like a tropical fruit with a little bit of acidity, a little zing to it. And it’s a really lovely aroma. The aroma on this. And then we, this is a Junmai as it’s milled to, 80%, but the aroma I get on those, it’s a little bit more like a Junmai Ginjo. Even though in, in your sake I would say is has that 50% milling, but where do you think when you do the aroma on that, what do you think that would be if if nobody told you what they were marketing it as?

Timothy Sullivan: 23:28
Yeah, I would never mistake this for a Junmai Daiginjo, I don’t think, because it is not super expressive in the aroma. It’s more reserved and straightforward and a little Rice-y and my mind goes to, June Junmai just based on the aroma alone.

John Puma: 23:45
And then for me, based on this aroma, I would never think this was a Junmai I would think it was something something more elevated.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:51
Yeah. I’m gonna give mine a taste. again, the Tidal from Brooklyn Kura. Yeah, so this has good structure. Definitely rice forward. Again, just that back note of something fruity and a little bit juicy, but really good balance with the acidity. I think the. Rice story, the calrose comes across in a very elegant way. This feels, as we often say on this podcast, this feels like a very food friendly style of sake. This is a bottle you could so easily open when you have friends over for dinner, and you just want something easy, clean, balanced to sip on with pretty much any kind of food like this feels like a sake you could pair with such a wide variety.

John Puma: 24:37
Lovely. Very cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:40
And the SMV is a plus three, so this is a really good balance between sweet and dry. It’s not bone dry, but it’s not super sweet either. It’s striking that really good balance that brings roundness to a Junmai Sake, and as Brandon does so well the rice flavors from the calrose are so well integrated. So great all around. Super easy drinking.

John Puma: 25:04
Excellent. And that’s Brandon Brandon Doughan our friend of the show who who’s been on many times. He’s the Toji over Brooklyn Kura.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:12
Yes, that’s right.

John Puma: 25:14
All right. Now I’m gonna sip on the macho king, Yamada Junmai from Makino Sake brewery. So the body on this is significant. Like it is. It is a little on the thicker side. And the flavors are your tropical mix. You’ve got some pineapple, you’ve got some I don’t know if I would say not so much melon in this case, but maybe some apple also and, and some banana. I think in a former life, I would maybe have said some circus peanuts, but I don’t do that anymore. Definitely some banana here and there is a fun little bit of effervescence. It’s not sparkling, but it’s a little bit frizzy, a a little bit fizzy. And that is very pleasant to me on the tongue. And it helps to keep that full body nature from being too cloying and too thick. So very nice, very drinkable. This is Jo oops. I accidentally had the whole bottle kind of sake for me. Very easy drinking sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:16
So if you ever get an introduction to sake from Man on the Street, John Puma, you can ex, you can expect some tropical fruits in there. I think that’s the takeaway

John Puma: 26:24
Absolutely. Absolutely. If Man on the street, John Puma ever tries to introduce you to, okay, you, you best be ready for some tropical fruit.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:35
Awesome. I think we hit a new land speed record in introducing sake.

John Puma: 26:41
I think so. I think you’re absolutely right.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:44
yeah, but I really firmly believe that it was a good idea to do this episode and give people a episode. We can point to that, say, do you want a 20 minute introduction to sake? This is the episode and I’m so glad we circled back and went back to basics for today.

John Puma: 27:03
Me too. It’s a lot of fun to go back to basics. It’s a, I’m not gonna lie, sometimes it’s a little bit challenging coming up with new episode ideas all the time. So going back and redoing concepts that we’ve done in the past. But doing it through the lens of things we’ve learned over the years is I think a lot of fun.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:20
Yeah. One last thought I’ll leave you with John is that people listening to this who may be who are in the industry and who are experts the majority of people out in the world have zero knowledge of sake. So I think having this information out there is really important, but the fun really comes in. If you get intrigued by any of the aspects of sake that we talked about, there is an unlimited, well you can tap of learning and tasting and exploring. So this is really for all those people who are just getting started. You can consider this like a springboard to like dive into whatever. If you’re intrigued by the concept of. Rice milling. You can explore there. If you heard the word nigori and you’re like, what’s that all about? You can explore there. We talked about different rice varieties, you can start tasting those. So there’s, that’s one thing that got me really into sake as a hobby in the beginning was learning that there’s so many aspects and you can explore all of them. In different ways on your own timeline, and that’s what made sake really compelling and interesting to me. So I hope that will be true for others as well if they listen to this episode and start tasting different things.

John Puma: 28:31
I think that’s great and for. Me, it was, I had a very similar thing where you dip your toe in, you start to learn a little bit, and you’re like, I’m just gonna learn the things, the basics. And then you realize like there’s no end. If you expand out what that, what basics mean you can be educating yourself for years on that idea. That’s really a lot of fun. That’s the they hook you in with the, oh, it’s just water, rice, yeast, and Koji. But then there’s so many little things that it’s fun to learn about. That’s the best, that’s the best part about sake education for me is that it actually is a lot of fun. I enjoy it.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:05
It is a lot of fun and I’ve, over the years I’ve realized that sake’s not gonna be the favorite drink of everyone who tastes it. But for those people who catch the bug and they become passionate about sake, it’s so wonderful to be, a place where people can come and listen to more about sake, listen to some tastings and dive a little bit deeper into different topics. So it makes, doing this podcast also very fulfilling and a lot of fun. And I agree with you. There is no end to the study. You can do. You can go as deep as you want or as shallow as you want. And at the end of the day. When all is said and done, it’s really about the enjoyment of sake. So if we can help transmit that to people, then I think it’s a job well done.

John Puma: 29:51
I hope we do. I hope that people listen to the show and then they wanna learn more and wanna try new sakes. And yeah. It’s, I think that’s a lot of fun. And for me that’s the joy I get from it is getting to take my enthusiasm and try to share it with people.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:03
Awesome. We may schedule a few more Back to basics episode. This was the overview, back to basics overview, but I think that we may do a few more back to basics episode in the new year and keep a lookout for those. But until then, John, I just wanna say thanks for tasting. I wish I could try that macho, but I’ll get some of it. ASAP.

John Puma: 30:24
I think you’d really enjoy it. So yeah I’m excited to share this with

Timothy Sullivan: 30:27
Yeah. Yeah. So great to taste with you, and I want to thank all of our listeners so much for tuning in. We really do hope that you’re enjoying our show. If you’d like to support Sake Revolution, the best way to do that is to join our community on Patreon. Please visit patreon.com/sakerevolution to learn more

John Puma: 30:47
And If you like our sake podcast so much that you’d like to wear something about it, so people walking on the street, you run to people on the street who are wearing Sake Revolution swag. Maybe you might wanna know where you can get some and you can get your sake Revolution swag at Sake Revolution. Dot com along with our show notes pictures of our bottles that, that macho label, you have to see it, it’s really a lot of fun. So please head on over to sake revolution.com and maybe grab a t-shirt or a sticker. And before I forget, a long time ago, Tim, we said that if people run into us at events, we will have stickers for them. And I recently experienced this and I was ready. So it happened. I had the stickers. They were very happy.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:32
Alright.

John Puma: 31:34
So yeah. On that note, please grab a glass. Remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai!

Episode 183. World Sake Day comes once a year on Oct 1st. For sake fans across the globe, this is our big holiday… think Christmas-4th of July-Halloween all rolled into one! What better way for us to mark the day then with a live recording of Sake Revolution in front of a studio audience and featuring an interview and tasting with a Sake Brewery owner and brewer- our friend Byron Stithem of Nashville’s Proper Sake. All the sake lovers who attended this live recording at the Brooklyn Kura Taproom on Oct 1st, 2025, got to taste along with us as we explored the sake and the stories of this outstanding brewer. We also welcomed audience questions for a fun-filled roundtable of sake exploration and learning – with lots of laughs along the way. Listen in as we celebrate Sake Day 2025 live and in person! #SakeRevolution

---

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 01:28 Guest Introductions: Byron Stithem

“When Byron Stithem moved from Kansas City, Kansas to Nashville, he never imagined that his career would evolve into brewing sake. It all started with a barback job—something that made him a little extra cash while studying music business at Belmont University. When work at a record label brought Stithem to New York City in 2010, he scored a role behind the scenes at Clover Club alongside Rising Stars alum Brad Farran. After falling in love with the menu at Sake Bar Decibel in the Lower East Side, Stithem began experimenting with koji alchemy at home. That first batch of koji evolved into a full-blown, sake nano-brewery.

After Stithem’s son was born in 2011, he and his family returned to Nashville where he helped launch Hattie B’s flagship location and joined the opening team at Husk’s Nashville debut. One year later, Stithem was recruited to be a chef for the traveling culinary pop-up experience, Dinner Lab. He was promoted to director of curation, designing menus and coordinating events with young chefs across the country. Still, Stithem dreamed of sake, longing for the pre-modern styles that were impossible to source in the South. After years of research, several training trips to Japan, and endless hours of experimentation, Proper Saké Company was born in 2016. Nashville’s only sake brewery features Japanese-style beers and a variety of small batch, unpasteurized, unfined, pre-modern-style sakes, all made from Stithem’s koji. He continues to collaborate with many restaurants around the South to bring koji and an assortment of fermented ingredients to their menus.”
– Starchefs

About Rice Vice
“Rice Vice” is a new drinking concept by Proper Sake Co. in East Nashville. The focus is on curious styles of sake, some made on site, some curated from Japan, Koji inspired beers, the coldest Highballs in town and records to fill your ear canals with the purest audio around.

Byron is a multi-discipline culinarian with an eclectic collection of fermentation and hospitality experience. His goal is to bring sake and other koji based ferments to every table and fridge in the world.

Discover more about Proper Sake Co. and Rice Vice:
Website: https://www.propersake.co/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/proper_sake_co/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/propersake

Rice Vice Location and Hours:
3109 Ambrose Avenue, Nashville, TN – 37207
Hours
Mon. Closed
Tue. Closed
Wed. 4:00 PM – 10:00 PM
Thu. 4:00 PM – 10:00 PM
Fri. 4:00 PM – 11:00 PM
Sat. 1:00 PM – 11:00 PM
Sun. 1:00 PM – 8:00 PM

---

Skip to: 22:14 Sake Tasting: Proper Sake

Proper Sake Soft Power Kimoto Daiginjo

Brewery: Proper sake
Classification: Junmai Daiginjo Kimoto
Alcohol: 16.0%
Brewery Location: Nashville, TN
Seimaibuai: 40%
Rice Type: Titan
Brand: Proper Sake

Purchase this sake: https://shopcraftspirits.com/proper_sake/soft_power_-_kimoto_daiginjo_sake_113541

---

Proper Sake Spirit Guide Yamahai Honjozo

Brewery: Proper Sake
Classification: Yamahai Honjozo
Alcohol: 16.0%
Brewery Location: Nashville
Rice Type: Titan, Yamadanishiki, Omachi
Seimaibuai: 66-70%
Brand: Proper Sake

Purchase this sake: https://shopcraftspirits.com/proper_sake/spirit_guide_-_yamahai_honjozo_167301

---

Skip to: 38:58 Audience questions

---

Skip to: 57:25 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s First Sake podcast. I’m your host, John Puma from the Sake Notes, also the administrator over at the Internet Sake Discord, and the moderator at Reddit r slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:37
And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center, and I’m the founder of the Urban Sake website. And John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:55
Tim, I, I can’t get used to hearing the music when we’re actually doing this live. It’s like, so for people at home when we do this normally, like it would just kind of pretend the music is playing and then I do the thing and blah, blah. But like hearing, I’m like, oh wow, this is actually pretty cool. Yeah. So normally I only get that in post.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:12
Well, John, I have to say happy sake day.

John Puma: 1:15
Happy sake day.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:16
We are here. Live with all of our friends at Brooklyn. Kura. Say hi everyone. Yes. Alright. And we have to welcome our VIP guest for Sake Day. Byron Byron Stithem. Byron is the owner and brewer at Proper Sake and the owner of Rice Vice in Nashville, Tennessee. Byron, welcome to the show.

Byron Stithem : 1:42
Thank you. Thank you. It’s great to be here.

John Puma: 1:45
Byron is no stranger to this show, though. Is that right? I think, yeah. I think you’ve been here a few times.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:52
Byron, do you know how many times you’ve been on Sake Revolution?

Byron Stithem : 1:55
I believe I’ve lost count.

John Puma: 1:58
Well, wait a minute. Don’t, don’t say that because, uh,’cause you’ve been on, uh, three times and I bet you can count higher than three.

Byron Stithem : 2:07
You’d be surprised.

John Puma: 2:08
So yeah. If you’ve been on, uh, a whopping three times, you’ve been first, uh, back, way back in July of 2021, which was one of the first times we ever sat in a room and did a show together. And it was you and me and Tim and Tim’s apartment, Tim’s living room.

Byron Stithem : 2:25
Yeah.

John Puma: 2:26
Um, with a bunch of mics and a lot of mic bleed. Yeah. Which I imagine we’re gonna get tonight too, which is great. Uh, then, for, in March, 2022, we did our episode 100 Call In where we had all of our friends jump in and say hi to us and you or one of our friends jumped in and said hi to us and we really appreciate that. Uh, but we weren’t done with you yet. And, and it’s, it keeps like, it’s always weird situations’cause it’s like, you know, we had the one where like we were in Tim’s living room and then we’ve got the call in and now, uh, going on we’ve got the craft sake fest where you came over to our tent after winning an award and uh, and, and chatted with us for a little bit and did a little episode with us. We’ve yet to do like the normal zoom with you. And I think that’s, that’s kind of your thing now you’re on So revolution a lot, but it’s never just a regular episode.

Byron Stithem : 3:10
I’d prefer to do this in person, whatever we can.

John Puma: 3:14
Yeah. Uh, well now you’re at three, outta four, so Yeah. That’s pretty good.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:18
Alright, so we, we’ve had you on three times and we’ve told some of your story before, but I’m sure we’ll have a few listeners who didn’t listen to those previous episodes so for them, can you give us a little introduction to yourself, proper Sake and Rice Vice.

Byron Stithem : 3:31
Yeah. So proper sake started, uh, about 10 years ago and we predominantly do kind of old world style sakes. So Yamahai is Kimoto, but emoto’s and since then it has evolved into a multi-location and multi-product line. But the baby of the whole operation is of course, still sake. But we do anything Koji based. So we do koji based beers, we do chu, we do gin and whiskey, all with Koji. And then we now have, yeah, a bar in Nashville, a bar in New Orleans, a where we highlight all of these things, and hopefully demystify them for, for people in person.

John Puma: 4:10
Ooh, I I like that callback. That was nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:13
Yeah. That’s awesome. So. One thing you said is something we had not heard before. You have a Rice Vice in New Orleans? We do. Well, tell us how did you get there and how did that happen and why New Orleans?

Byron Stithem : 4:27
Yeah, it’s, it doesn’t make a lot of sense really, but, uh, we, we’ve always loved New Orleans. My business partner lives there most of the year and we thought it would be an interesting place to try out a second location. And so far it’s been pretty well received. It was not, uh, from a permitting perspective, an easy venture, but we’re finally open and so far it’s been been a lot of good times. And, uh. Yeah, we were there to open up for tales of the cocktail, which is a big thing. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, coming into month four here. Wow.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:03
Okay. I’ve got a very important question for you in your New Orleans location, which day is more important Sake Day or Mardi Gras

Byron Stithem : 5:12
Uh, TBDI mean, he’s here consider on Sake Day, but we do have events going on in Nashville and New Orleans as we speak. Alright. My phone’s actually been buzzing quite a bit.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:23
Awesome. So, uh, we also wanted to ask you if you have any new sake products that are coming out or hitting the market.

Byron Stithem : 5:34
That’s interesting that you ask because it seems like you’re leading the witness a little bit.

John Puma: 5:41
Just just a touch, just a touch, just a little bit.

Byron Stithem : 5:43
Um, so a, another item that I mentioned that we started doing recently is distilled products. And part of the permitting headache that is involved with certain subsections of sake production is the distillation portion. And, uh, as of as of last summer, we also now have the licensure. To operate, a certain special style of sake called honjozo. And, although we had been beta testing in and around the fringes of legality, we, we do finally have the correct licensure in place to produce, a very interesting style of sake called honjozo.

John Puma: 6:21
Nice. Nice. And, so Honjozo for our listeners who may not be familiar, and then, and shame on you for not listening to our episode on Aruten, what is Honjozo?

Byron Stithem : 6:33
So, uh, Honjozo sake would be sake where a small amount of distilled spirit is added towards the end of fermentation. And the idea being that you can extract some of the, more insoluble compounds that would be trapped in the water and rice in a normal production process. Um, what’s interesting about what we’re doing is we are also using. Distillate that is made from previously brewed sake.

John Puma: 7:00
Ah,

Byron Stithem : 7:01
so it’s, it’s like triple sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:03
Yeah. So the, the normal distillate, when you make this alcohol added style of sake, the normal distillate that is added is a distillate of sugar cane. It’s a neutral spirit that brewers in Japan just call brewers alcohol. And you said that you’re using leftover sake. Is that right? Or you’re distilling sake?

Byron Stithem : 7:24
Yeah, we’re distilling sake. So we’re, we’re carving out a little bit of every single batch. Mm-hmm. And reserving that for distillate just for this purpose. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:33
One way that I recently heard, uh, alcohol added sake being described is that alcohol helps dissolve things. It’s a solvent. And when you add it to the mash. You can dissolve additional rice, you can bring out additional flavors, you can round sharp edges. And, uh, people often wonder when they hear about alcohol added sake for the first time, like, why are you adding booze to booze? What’s the point of putting distilled alcohol into sake? And it really is, um, boosting aromas, rounding flavors, dissolving additional rice. And, it is, uh, really fun when you do a sake tasting to taste a pure rice style, one that doesn’t have the added alcohol and one that does kind of side by side.

John Puma: 8:23
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:23
Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And, uh, any other news coming out of, your world, uh, that may

John Puma: 8:32
involve our world

Byron Stithem : 8:35
perhaps? So we, we recently finally started working with a New York distributor, so with any luck in the next month or two here, we’ll have. Proper sake products in the New York area. Mm-hmm. And yeah, that’s part of this trip is finalizing all of that. Thank you for having us. It’s, it’s wonderful to finally be here. That is some

Timothy Sullivan: 8:58
hot goss right there. Yeah,

John Puma: 8:59
that is, uh, that makes me very happy because previously, in order to get my hands on delicious, proper sake, I needed to contact you and then go to your, like, vino shipper and, and get things sent up here. Uh, and having it just local is so much easier and I cannot wait to be able to hop into a place and get your stuff here.

Byron Stithem : 9:18
I agree with all this.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:19
Yeah, that’s really big news. But I lured all of our guests, I lured them here with the notion that, uh, proper sake is not available in New York. Yeah. So for today, that’s still true.

Byron Stithem : 9:31
It’s still true. Okay. It’s not a lie.

John Puma: 9:35
literally is true tonight, here. Tonight. Yes. So it’s a, a fib. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:42
Well, hopefully this will, will this bring you up to New York more often?

Byron Stithem : 9:46
That’s certainly my hope, especially as I continue to rack up revolution appearances,

John Puma: 9:52
we call them revolution credits, sir. Yes. And

Timothy Sullivan: 9:55
there’s a, there’s another Toji that you want to, you know, have more visits then, right? Yeah, maybe. Okay. Mm-hmm. I don’t know if we’re gonna name him, but,

John Puma: 10:06
but he works upstairs.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:10
All right. So, you know, we’re gonna do a tasting of the proper sake tonight. I hope everyone’s looking forward to that. Uh, it’s gonna be in just a bit, but before we get into the tasting, I wanted to ask you if you could talk a little bit about your philosophy of sake brewing. One of the things that, as I, as I’ve studied sake over the years that’s been really valuable is to taste. With the person who made it. And they can talk about what sake means to them, what aspects of sake they really value, what they look out for when they’re producing the sake and what they want the customer to get out of drinking their sake. And we’d love to hear a little bit of that from you. Before we taste your sake, what’s your general philosophy around that?

Byron Stithem : 10:55
I, I think we came to this from a very old world perspective in that when I first started drinking sake, I fell in love with, with some of these more robust, rich styles of sake, like Yamahai and Kimoto and living in Tennessee, that’s not something we have readily available. So a lot of the impetus for the business was just to learn how to make these sakes so that I could enjoy them myself. And over time, that has really spun into some adjacent ventures, but more importantly, hopefully learning to grow the craft of Yamahai and Kimoto sake. So we definitely lean towards the more rich side. I also find that there tends to be, uh, an interesting acidity to Yamahai and Kimoto that works really well with. American cuisine, especially in the South, where it tends to be a little heavier. our flagship products are probably more of a, a blend, hopefully more versatile. They’re, they’re very, uh, very old world meets, new world in that hopefully there’s some nice aroma and they, they have a dryness to them that makes them really approachable with a wide array of cuisines. But, the sakes that we’ve brought tonight are definitely more the, the rich, full-bodied styles, and I hope that you all are, are interested in going on that journey too.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:17
Yeah. Do you have any particular food pairings that you like with your sakes that you serve at rice vice? Anything in particular you bring in to pair with your style of

Byron Stithem : 12:28
brewing? Yeah, I think anything grilled is always a winner, but outside of that, we try and mix it up with some pretty esoteric styles of cuisine. And, uh, more often than not, it seems like lately we have a lot of Italian and adjacent cuisine where you’re really kind of relying on the umami of tomatoes and aged cheeses mixed with the umami and similar compounds that you might find in a yamahai or Kimoto sake.

John Puma: 12:57
Nice. Nice. So, um, you’ve been, we’re gonna go back a little bit. We’re gonna rewind to when you, when you first got, uh, rice Vice going and, uh, it’s been some time now. And so how has kind of the Nashville market for sake changed with you there for the past bunch of years?

Byron Stithem : 13:16
I think it changed in a big way when we opened because. There was really nothing like it at the time. Mm-hmm. And still isn’t. Mm-hmm. For better or for worse. But, um, there’s really not anywhere else that you can go drink sake from a purely educational standpoint and or just a purely frictionless enjoyment standpoint. There, there are more and more restaurants where you can, uh, access a cool list of sake. Mm-hmm. But at the same time, it’s still not a place where you could go and sit down and learn kind of at your, your, your own leisurely pace and or your own expedited pace. Uh, so that really is the, the mission and the goal, and I hope that people find value in that as well.

John Puma: 13:59
Yeah. And so, and so, as you mentioned earlier, you, your business partner lives in New Orleans, so that was one of the reasons that you went over there. Uh, what else drew you to saying like, this is the second place, this is where we’re gonna go.

Byron Stithem : 14:11
Well, I kind of felt like he wasn’t doing enough. No, it is. It is more that we knew the market. We have a lot of friends there. Mm-hmm. And it is obviously, you know, a well-known drinking town.

John Puma: 14:23
I’ve heard that.

Byron Stithem : 14:25
So we knew that the food component could be minimal and people would probably still be interested. Mm-hmm. Uh, it’s also an interesting place from a cocktail perspective because it is also somewhat world renowned for its cocktail culture. Mm-hmm. And we wanted to lean into that a little bit with a lot of our new specialty products, whether it’s chocho or gins or whiskeys, things that we can leverage that community to think of new and interesting ways to enjoy a lot of these Koji based ferments. And also, you know, sake of course, but, um, how do you just get people in the door? Because the ultimate goal is to trick people into drinking sake, right? Yeah. I

John Puma: 15:04
mean, it’s. We are all alleg. At the end of the day, we’re all ninjas. We’re just trying to slide sake into somebody’s life and be like, aha, we’ve got you.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:14
Yes. As I like to say, welcome to the dark side of the force. Yes. When we, when we get them into sake. Now the sake educator in me is coming out a little bit. We’ve mentioned Kimoto, we’ve mentioned Yamahai, how this is a driving force for you and for our listeners and for our people here today. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about, Kimoto and Yamahai, just a brief description of what it is and what you mentioned higher acidity, but what else draws you to those styles and maybe a little education piece on that.

Byron Stithem : 15:48
Yeah, so the process of making a Kimoto or Yamahai sake requires kind of a whole precursor that wouldn’t exist in a normal sake production, where you are building up a lactic acid. shubo or yeast starter, with which to ferment the whole batch. Mm-hmm. And the difference between that in a traditional or contemporary sake would be that you are building up this lactic acid culture naturally, and along the way you get all sorts of fun flavors and bacteria that add to the depth and versatility of the sake, in my opinion. Along the way, you also, because of those interesting bacterium, get some higher acidity components. And although the, the product takes twice as long to make, I think it’s twice as good.

John Puma: 16:34
Twice as good. Yeah. Shots fired.

Byron Stithem : 16:36
Be three times. I don’t,

Timothy Sullivan: 16:38
when I, when I describe Yamahai and Kimoto, if I’m standing behind a table and I just have a few seconds to describe it, I often describe it as an old school brewing method. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And I think that’s a really good shorthand for understanding what Kimoto and Yamahai are. It’s, it’s the precursors to the modern yeast starter, and it’s known for funkier flavors, more acidity, more boldness. And, um, I think people can, I don’t know if you agree with this, but some people have a love-hate relationship with Kimoto and Yamahai. There’s some people that really get into those bolder, richer earthier flavors. And some people, I’m not naming names, but some people prefer cleaner crispr sakes. Right. Really? Yeah. Oh, how about that? Interesting.

Byron Stithem : 17:24
It is interesting. But, but we definitely try and have a spectrum and some of, uh, myos most inspirational sakes and sake breweries are the ones that really find that balance between old and new. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I think most of our, especially wider range distributed products, hopefully fall in that category where it has the depth and versatility of a Yamahai Kimoto, but it also has the nose. Some, some dryness and some, some elegance that you might expect from something more contemporary.

John Puma: 17:57
Yeah. I think the, the first time we had you on the show, you had coin for me coined the phrase pretty Yamahai.

Byron Stithem : 18:03
Yeah.

John Puma: 18:03
And I think it was, we were tasting diplomat that day. I was like, this is what he means. And yes, this is again, really because I’m, I’m not the Yamahai guy, neither is Tim. Um, but, but having, you know, having that and being like, oh, this really, it, it’s bridging that gap. It’s got that fullness, but really does like, still have a little something for, for the, for the ginjo heads like me. Uh, and it really is just a really tasty sake.

Byron Stithem : 18:29
I mean, that is the million dollar question. How do you make a sake for everyone?

John Puma: 18:35
That’s, that’s hard. Yeah. I think that’s a really hard question to answer. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:38
But one thing that I think really speaks to the Kimoto and Yamahai style that you make is that when you get into the discussion of food pairing, it just opens up a door that takes you to different places. You can pair a wider range of food with Kimoto and Yamahai styles, and it all comes back to the U word umami. Mm-hmm. This is, uh, one of the cornerstones of what we get to when we talk about sake and food pairing and Kimoto and Yamahai, those old school styles that give us that deeper flavor, more umami. You can. Open doors to food pairing that I think are not possible with light, clean, dainty styles. Right.

Byron Stithem : 19:25
Yeah, I would agree with all of that. And especially living in the South, that is a, a super prevalent concept with, introducing people to sake in relatively foreign environments. So we do have a lot of Japanese cuisine, but even still, it is not a predominant part of the market. So figuring out how we can get sake into these different, uh, more western cuisine focused restaurants is, is always part of the, the calculus.

John Puma: 19:55
Yeah. And I, it’s, you know, taking that a tiny bit further, those light sakes that I tend to like and lighter fruitier sakes, I tend to like when you have heavier. More flavorful Western food with them. They, they get completely lost. Like when you, when you have some of that food and then you sit that sake, it’s like you, they’ll lose, you lose the, the elegance. You lose the thing that makes that sake special in a lot of cases. But with the yamahais or Kimoto, those, those pre-modern styles, it’s just like, Nope, this is fine. They’re, they’re welcoming it. They’re just like, oh, come on in, let’s go. And that’s, uh, that, that’s kind of the fun part about that style for me.

Byron Stithem : 20:32
For me too.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:34
Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, switching gears a little bit, I think that one thing I’ve noticed this year, 2025 in particular is that I’ve felt through hearing about many different breweries, yours included, that it feels like there’s a real momentum picking up in the US sake industry. I’d be curious to get your thoughts if you think that, there’s, growth happening. If you think there’s momentum happening. You know, people have asked me about sake and I said, oh yeah, it’s the latest craze, 2000 years in the making. You know, it’s like always been on the cusp of becoming the next big thing, and I’ve been in sake for 20 years, and, um, but I, I do feel that there is real growth happening in the US industry right now. What’s your perspective on that? Have you noticed anything happening?

Byron Stithem : 21:24
I feel like sake’s kind of the little engine that could in that department, because. It’s never been explosive in growth, at least in the time I’ve been here, but it does continue to grow year over year and interest in Japanese culture and Japanese cuisine continues to grow. You only have to look at Kyoto this year to, to highlight that. Yeah. Um, but I, I think all in all, that’s pretty effective in the way that sake’s grown into the market. It’s, it’s been organic, it hasn’t been an overnight success. And I, I hope that means that it’ll have longevity, uh, and we’ll continue to grow as well.

John Puma: 22:02
Excellent. Uh, so Tim, uh, I’ve noticed that while we have been chatting one of our glasses. Has some sake in it now.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:11
Interesting. Yes.

John Puma: 22:12
And I think that’s a sign.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:13
Yeah. I think we can transition to our first sake tasting. Mm-hmm. And as we do, I want to encourage all of you to write your questions on the paper. If you have any questions that have come up during our initial discussion, we’re gonna be collecting those right after our second sake tasting. So, uh, please get those questions ready. And, uh, whenever you’re ready to pour the second sake, I think we can do that as well. Um, so, uh, we are going to, uh, start our first sake tasting.

Byron Stithem : 22:43
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:44
And I love to taste sake with the sake maker because we don’t have to introduce it, John. No, we can.

John Puma: 22:50
I normally, I’d be getting ready to read off stats, but I, I have a living, breathing version of that right now, right next to me, so this is great. Yes. Uh, so, uh, so Byron, uh, in my glass here, I have the proper sake soft power Kimoto Daiginjo, by the way. I love that name. Well, we’re gonna talk about that in a minute, but, uh, first tell us a little bit about this sake and what we’ve got in our hands.

Byron Stithem : 23:13
Yeah. So the original version of this sake is very much the meet in the middle. New meets. Old, uh, previously, but this one has actually been aged for two years, unpasteurized. So this is a special glimpse. What into Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:32
More hot goss.

Byron Stithem : 23:33
Yes.

John Puma: 23:34
This is like, is normally how, how this goes out? Or is just something you did special for today?

Byron Stithem : 23:38
No, this is something that I keep around for special occasions. Oh. Um, hopefully that’s okay.

John Puma: 23:44
No, no, no. It’s very Okay. It’s more than,

Byron Stithem : 23:47
okay. Okay. Okay. Uh, so yeah, this one is a Kimoto Daiginjo, two styles that don’t normally go together. So the rice is milled to 40%, um, indicative of a cleaner, more elegant style, but it is also a Kimoto. So it has that old world school production where you’re trying to draw out that acid in umami and the, the super fresh. Soft power is very aromatic. It’s a, it’s a contemporary yeast, so, um, a lot of what you get would be more floral and, boisterous on the nose. After two years of aging at five degrees Celsius, it, it has become a very subdued version where all of that aroma I think goes into the body and now you’re dealing with, with the palate instead of the nose, hopefully.

John Puma: 24:38
Interesting.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:39
All right, so this was hand carried for us because they’re, you, your distributor is starting soon, but not yet. Yep, it’s true.

John Puma: 24:47
And I don’t think they’re distributing these special for special occasions. Bottles,

Timothy Sullivan: 24:51
yeah. Now when I taste this, oh, can we get a few of the stats because Yes. Oh yes. That would be good too. So, uh, the sake

Byron Stithem : 24:59
rice and the rice milling. Yeah. So the Sake Rice is grown in Arkansas. It’s a varietal called Titan.

John Puma: 25:06
Mm-hmm.

Byron Stithem : 25:07
And it is milled to 40%, so 60% removed, 40% remaining. The yeast is 1801, so a very modern yeast. Mm-hmm. And again, the production style is Kimoto, so old world production. It’s a four week process just to get the yeast starter going, and then we start brewing after that. Nice. Yeah.

John Puma: 25:27
And then you’ve had this unpasteurized for two years? That’s correct. And is this, has it since been pasteurized or is this still anama?

Byron Stithem : 25:33
This is still a nama-nama.

John Puma: 25:34
Wow.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:36
Yeah. All

John Puma: 25:36
right.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:37
Well, I can give my initial reaction very freely, and I think that if you ever need an example of what umami in sake tastes like, this is it. Get your bottle of soft power. Mm-hmm. Keep it bottle pasteurized and age it for two years, and you can experience the umami we’re tasting. There is a lovely, uh, combination of savoriness and rice flavors. I think that balance beautifully here. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.

John Puma: 26:08
Did you go ahead and sip without us, Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 26:11
I did. Yeah. Sorry. I too, I jumped ahead. You did? Oh, goodness.

John Puma: 26:16
Yeah. Well, well, Byron, how you doing? Come by.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:21
That’s for the end. Come by. Well, we can, we can do the aroma as well.

John Puma: 26:25
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:27
Yeah, but I think the, the, the flavor is, I like how you

John Puma: 26:30
were so excited. You just like went for it. I know you never do that.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:34
Yeah. I jumped ahead.

John Puma: 26:35
I know you usually set the pace. I’m the one that usually has to hold back, so I get, I’m getting like, it’s a little cheesy notes that I’m getting, but not in a bad way. I know if only people here may know that I do not enjoy cheese, that doesn’t mean I don’t dislike the aroma of cheese necessarily. It just means I don’t enjoy eating it.

Byron Stithem : 26:57
Yeah. So the lactic acid bacteria that is present mm-hmm. In a lot of these ferments was, would be, uh, similar to what you might experience with a yogurt or another lactobacillus culture. So there’s definitely no dairy in here. No, no, no. But yeah, and I think you wouldn’t

Timothy Sullivan: 27:14
be wrong. Yeah. Lactic, lactic. Aromas and tastes are something that are quite common in sake. You can think of cheese, cream, yogurt, butter, those, uh, lactic characteristics are common and can be very delicious. And in my mind, whenever I smell that or taste that, it opens up the idea of pairing with cheese. Of course. Absolutely. Which is my secret weapon. Yes. To bring people to the dark side of the force. Yes. Yes. If only you had some

John Puma: 27:46
kind of a episode of the show where you went into cheese and sake, or perhaps a series, we’ll say Yes.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:54
So I’m very passionate about sake and cheese.

John Puma: 27:56
Yeah. So I’ve now caught up now and I’ve had my sip, and I have to say that. So the aroma really set me up for something that I thought was going to be a lot more, lactic forward, uh, heavier. And when I sip on it, I’m like, oh, this is so. Dangerously drinkable and, and I’m really, really loving this. This is really nice. yeah, I really was expecting something that was gonna be a lot more like punch in my face and said it’s, Really, uh, just, there’s nothing wrong with a punch in the face sometimes with, with a good sake. Um, yeah, no, it’s just like, so, so it’s a lot more, um, a lot smoother than I expected. Yeah, think very nice.

Byron Stithem : 28:31
I think the, the Daiginjo component of this, especially with the very cold aging, helps keep a lot of the traditional koshu aged flavors kind of at bay. And Yes. And hopefully gives you

Timothy Sullivan: 28:43
best of both worlds. And let me translate for you, Byron, when, when John says punch in the face, he, he means it as a compliment. I think

John Puma: 28:50
he does. Absolutely. You, you’ve had a, you’ve had a really like, you know, good piece of alcohol that’s like, been like pow, like, you know what I’m talking about? Yeah. I don’t, don’t pretend

Timothy Sullivan: 29:03
it’s a nama. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, do you have any thoughts on food pairing for this particular sake?

Byron Stithem : 29:11
Yeah, so I think this one, similarly if you’re leaning into grilled elements. Maybe on the softer side, not something too aggressively charred. Um, I think it’s really great with various grilled vegetables of, of the yakitori variety. And then, you know, back to the Italian thing, as long as it’s not too heavy, maybe a light pasta with a, a lemony sauce. Mm-hmm. Maybe some butter, not, not cream. Let’s not go with cream.’cause that’s just gonna overdo it, but yeah.

John Puma: 29:44
Mm-hmm.

Byron Stithem : 29:45
Yeah.

John Puma: 29:45
Uh, and, and soft power.

Byron Stithem : 29:47
And soft power.

John Puma: 29:48
What, uh, what brought that on? Was that something you, you were, you like tasting it and trying to put together, like what, what’s the name for this?

Byron Stithem : 29:55
Well, is is a couple of things. One is that the soft power component being you have old world meets new world. Mm-hmm. You have soft, you have powerful. But the, the very first sake that we put into distribution is called the Diplomat. Mm-hmm. And so there’s been a kind of ongoing diplomatic theme throughout our naming. Mm-hmm. Uh, conjunctions and processes. And so this was just kind of a layup in that regard.

John Puma: 30:20
Excellent. I like it.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:22
Yeah. And we should also describe the label for the people at home.

Byron Stithem : 30:29
The label is also in that direction, but there’s not much to do with diplomacy. It has a cat on it. Uh, but it’s a, it’s a cat that is screaming kind of violently into the void and, uh, it’s also a kitten. So yeah, it’s cute, but powerful hopefully in, in many other ways. That sums up what this sake is trying to do.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:52
Yeah. So if anyone needs a visual image for the label, if you’ve ever seen that poster that says, hang in there. Yeah. And there’s a kitty kitty hanging from a rope. It’s kind of like that vibe a little bit. Exactly. Yeah. And it’s very, it’s very cool. All your labels are cool. Thank you. Yeah. Great. Fantastic. graphic design.

John Puma: 31:11
Wonderful. And I think, uh, with that we may pivot to our second sake. The spirit guide.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:18
Okay. Yes, yes. So the second sake we’re gonna taste is proper sake. Spirit guide, honjozo. Yeah. This is an alcohol added style of sake, as we mentioned at the beginning. Mm-hmm. So, Byron, do you want to give us the rundown on some of the stats for the sake, the rice, the milling, et cetera.

Byron Stithem : 31:36
So the, the rice for this one is, is kind of a mixed bag. We had a handful of rices that we were interested in doing from a mill rate. So, uh, these just happened to be in-house Titan, of course, because we always have that. And then, we did have some yamadanishiki, but we also did have a sprinkling of omachi. This was, uh, so everything, everything in here is 65% except for that omachi, which was 70. Nice. And technically, you know, honjozo is supposed to be 70 or under. I don’t know if it’s under 70, but anyways, give us, give us a break, you know? Yeah. You got it.

John Puma: 32:18
It’s, it’s, it’s okay. Since you’re in America, it is not nihonshu, so it could be whatever you’d like.

Byron Stithem : 32:22
Yeah. It actually doesn’t matter at all, does it? Exactly right.

John Puma: 32:24
Yeah. Um, as long as it’s delicious and we all love it. Honestly, I’m, I was surprised a little bit by that because I assumed, like a lot of places do with their honjozo, is that, that it would just be, the diplomat, but with your, aruten component. So I like that you kind of went outside of that and had a little fun with it.

Byron Stithem : 32:41
We’ve done a few different ones and, and this one especially, we had a real grab bag of rice left over from various projects and, and wanted to see how those might express themselves in, in harmony. That’s nice. Yeah. Ooh, so let’s give it a smell.

John Puma: 32:56
Yes. All together, Tim.

Byron Stithem : 32:59
Uh, you might find this hard to believe, but it’s also a Yamahai. I do not find that hard to believe.

John Puma: 33:07
I feel like we should have said something about that. That’s our back. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 33:09
Yeah. Well, this is a brand new product, right? It’s true. Yeah. So

John Puma: 33:14
we’re allowed to trip over it a little bit. Yeah. And we,

Timothy Sullivan: 33:16
we need the, the toji to guide us on this. So our spirit guide, this is, this is a Yamahai. I’m stumbling, but we This is get a Yamahai. A Yamahai honjozo. Yes. And similar to Kimoto. Yamahai is one of the old school starter methods that introduces acidity and umami into sake. Um, and when I smell this, I get, call me crazy, but I get a little hint of something cherry.

John Puma: 33:41
I know what you’re talking about. Yeah.

Byron Stithem : 33:45
I certainly hope so. Yeah. Yeah. Alright, so this is a number nine yeast. Yeah. And again, mostly 65% mill rice. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, yeah. The spirit that’s added right before we, we press the sake is, um, a collection of sake distillate. Mm-hmm. So previous batches of sake that have been distilled. Wow.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:06
The thing that’s so cool about that guys is that I mentioned earlier that most brewers use a distillate of sugar cane to fortify their sake, but using a distillate of sake is super old school. Like that’s what they used to do in Japan before industrialization came along. Yeah, yeah. Awesome. That was certainly,

John Puma: 34:26
I trying to say, they didn’t have part of the counter neutral sugar cane, uh, spirit. Alright, let’s give it a taste. Yes.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:34
Mm-hmm.

John Puma: 34:36
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:36
So when I taste an alcohol added sake versus a pure rice sake or a Junmai sake, the thing that always jumps out at me first is the texture of the sake, the mouthfeel. Absolutely. How rounded it is versus a pure rice style. So sake number one is pure rice style, and it has, it’s a little more, uh, streamlined, straightforward. This coats the palate more, doesn’t it?

Byron Stithem : 34:59
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Uh, a chemical component of distillates, which is really interesting. And if, if you taste this particular distillate on its own, you can kind of get a, a feel for what that palate coating texture is.

Timothy Sullivan: 35:15
Yeah. And adding alcohol to sake. Also, many brewers have told me when I visited breweries in Japan that it boosts aromas as well. And I think if you compare sake one and two here, the second sake is gonna have more, a more, um, pronounced aroma for sure. Yeah, absolutely.

John Puma: 35:32
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s saying something. It’s hearing the first one is a two year Yeah. It is very coating on the palate. It is, it is thick with a couple of seas, uh, and very tasty. Uh, it does beg for food. I’m glad I have some, some, some mixed nuts up here. Yeah. So I am having it with some salty food, which is really nice.

Byron Stithem : 35:53
This might be our, our most food friendly sake yet.

John Puma: 35:56
Mm. And you’re, and you, you aim for that. That’s like, that’s not saying a little bit from you, you know? Yeah.

Byron Stithem : 36:01
It’s the world I came from and it’s the world that I will always be, you know, stuck in. So. Still good?

John Puma: 36:08
Oh, no, no, no, no.

Byron Stithem : 36:10
Well, we all eat.

John Puma: 36:12
It’s true. We do.

Byron Stithem : 36:13
It’s something I think about

Timothy Sullivan: 36:14
every day.

John Puma: 36:15
Mm.

Timothy Sullivan: 36:16
So, as we are enjoying the last sips of these two sakes, I’d like to ask, K.C. and Linnea to collect our questions. We’re gonna be doing our audience q and a sessions, so everyone, if you have your questions, have them ready. We’re gonna get them collected and we’ll give some to John, some to me. And we’re, Byron, are you ready for this? Probably not. I think you’re gonna do great. Okay. That’s okay. I’m not ready. It’s generous. Yeah. So while we’re waiting for that, any food pairing recommendations for your spirit guide?

Byron Stithem : 36:48
Hmm. The, I think you can go a little bigger on the flavors. I think spicy cuisine, especially because that sake is gonna stick on your mouth for a little bit longer with any luck, uh, especially, you know, southeast Asian, Thai, maybe some Korean cuisine. But, um, yeah, also I feel like this one’s been working really well with, with barbecue lately. Ooh, that sounds

Timothy Sullivan: 37:15
good. Can I, can I give you my inspiration that I had? Yes, please. Okay. Uh, I don’t know if it’s the autumnal vibes in the air, but I’m feeling like this would be the perfect sake to bring to Thanksgiving. Oh my God. Think about Turkey stuffing mashed potatoes. Right.

Byron Stithem : 37:33
I, I think that’s right. Yeah. We, we accidentally did it. We cracked the code.

John Puma: 37:41
I, I brought a, I brought sake to a family Thanksgiving once and my thought was Yamahai, like I had to bring Yamahai. There’s no way anything else was gonna really work with like that American Thanksgiving food. So I’m, I’m glad that my, my, my guest several years ago ended up. Standing up against, uh, some scrutiny here.

Byron Stithem : 38:01
Yeah, I’m, I’m from Kansas and it’s very casserole heavy, so maybe that informs a lot of what I do as well. So maybe when I am talking about pairings in the future, it’s, it should really just be casserole based.

Timothy Sullivan: 38:17
I love a good casserole. You’ve heard it here first, everyone, sake and casserole is gonna be the,

John Puma: 38:23
you also heard today that Tim loves a good casserole.

Timothy Sullivan: 38:27
I do. You know what, actually, I have to be honest. Uh, when I tasted this, I thought about my favorite part of Thanksgiving, which is stuffing like. You know, for Thanksgiving is just a stuffing delivery vehicle for me. It’s like, all I want is the stuffing. And, uh, that is what the spirit guide made me think of. Interesting. I’ll take it. Yeah. We’re being honest here. I love it. We can let our hair down, right? Yeah. Okay. In fact, I don’t know if I can, you might see stuffing on the rice vice menus

John Puma: 38:55
from here on out. There you go. Just stuffing. It’s a bowl of stuffing.

Timothy Sullivan: 38:58
Okay, so this is my favorite part of our live shows, John Puma. Oh, really? Really? Yes. Oh, we got, oh, we got a napkin. We got a question on a question on the napkin.

John Puma: 39:07
Do we wanna lead with that one? Regardless of what it says.

Timothy Sullivan: 39:12
Alright. Okay.

John Puma: 39:13
So, uh, I, I, I’ve got a, I’ve a winner, so I’m gonna go for it. And so, and this is like, shame on us for not asking this question, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 39:20
Go for it.

John Puma: 39:21
Byron, thank you for coming. Your sakes and temperature, what kind of temperatures do you like to play with, with your sakes?

Byron Stithem : 39:32
Um, a wonderful question and. One that I spend a good amount of time thinking about, depending on what the occasion is. Mm-hmm. I tend to prefer super cold, which is kind of counterintuitive to these full-bodied styles. Mm-hmm. Because I, I also really like the bitter components that you might get in that environment. Um, that said, you know, the most honest perspective, the sake is gonna give, is gonna be more of a room temperature. Mm-hmm. Um, but most of what we do also kind of lends itself to, to being warm. Mm-hmm. And I come from the, the Philip Harper School of Thought that like, it can’t be hot enough, you know?

John Puma: 40:11
Uh, yes. He also keeps his sake in refrigerator so it doesn’t get too cold. So there is that. Yeah.

Byron Stithem : 40:17
He also says once it leaves the brewery, he doesn’t care what you do with it.

John Puma: 40:22
Yeah. He is a, he’s one of a kind.

Byron Stithem : 40:24
He’s a, he’s a real character. Yes, he is. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 40:27
Okay. Tim, what do you got? It’s my turn. Mm-hmm. Okay. This is a question for Byron.

Byron Stithem : 40:31
Wow,

John Puma: 40:32
Byron, popular. If you could

Timothy Sullivan: 40:33
have, if you could have one piece of equipment or ingredient from Japan, what would it be? Ooh,

John Puma: 40:40
I like that

Byron Stithem : 40:41
man. Well, there’s a lot of pieces of equipment that we need from Japan, so I’m gonna go with, with one ingredient, and that would just be fresh yuzu.

Timothy Sullivan: 40:53
Yuzu.

Byron Stithem : 40:54
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 40:54
There’s a tiny little yuzu farm in New Jersey, but there, it’s hard to get.

Byron Stithem : 40:59
It is. Yeah. Yeah. People love yuzu, myself included. And, um, when you put it on the cocktail menu, it, it seems to do very well. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:08
John, you’re up.

John Puma: 41:11
Sorry. These are pretty good. I’m trying to decide what to use here. Okay. So, this one actually has two questions. We’re gonna lead off with the first one though. So as far as we’re all aware is Propers spirit guide, honjozo, the First American Honjozo or aruten.

Byron Stithem : 41:28
You heard it here first folks.

John Puma: 41:30
Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. I think

Byron Stithem : 41:31
so. Uh, yeah. I, I don’t wanna speak out of school, but I don’t know of any others. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, I’m sure people

John Puma: 41:39
have done beta testing and, and, and played around with things before. Um, you know, maybe even in their own homes perhaps, but, uh, but I think as far as like a, a product with a, with a label on it, this is probably it.

Byron Stithem : 41:51
Yeah. Yeah. Um, that could be. And it’s available online. It’s available online coming soon to New York.

John Puma: 41:56
Yeah. Well, and then the follow-up question is, what is gonna be coming to New York? Oh, that’s a good

Byron Stithem : 42:00
question. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so hopefully a little bit of everything. Nice. Yeah, we, we will be hopefully in the market of the next few weeks to month here. Mm-hmm. And I think there’ll be a nice array of products from all of the sake skus, but also hopefully some of the spirits in our beer as well.

Timothy Sullivan: 42:18
Yeah. Okay. So we are doing a live stream today with our Patreon members. Mm-hmm. So if you wanna support Sake Revolution, you can join us on Patreon. And we have some people outside of New York who wanted to be part of this evening. So we’re streaming live on Patreon, and we have a few questions from our Patreon audience. Okay. Uh, so this is for Byron. How do you introduce Lactobacillus to your ferments addition or natural occurrence? That’s also, so when you’re doing your starter, that’s also

Byron Stithem : 42:47
a great question. Yeah. And we do both ways. So, Ooh. A we do is traditionally Yamahai, where you are introducing it naturally just based on what is existing in the brewery and in the rice. Um, sometimes we also do what’s called hot Yamahai, where we do an expedited process. Um, and that would be where you introduce a, a precor off lactobacillus culture. And so early on in the process when we were doing Yamahai, we were collecting all these different lactobacillus cultures and figuring out which ones worked most effectively, had the best flavor. Uh, so we, we store those and prop them up for certain batches as well.

John Puma: 43:30
All right. completely changing gears. So this podcast is in case anybody hasn’t figured it out, sake revolution. And apart from the sake revolution, Byron, what is your favorite revolution?

Byron Stithem : 43:45
My favorite revolution. Way to go. You know, it’s hard to say. There’s probably not been a bigger revolution than the sake revolution or a more important one. but I would just say go out there tonight and drink some sake and listen to rage against the Machine. You can have your own micro revolution.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:07
Right? Like it, I like it. Yeah. Okay. We have one more question from our Patreon viewers. Uh, I like your beers, but it’s nice to see you have shochu as well. Is it made with sake Kasu? So this is a question about your shochu.

Byron Stithem : 44:22
Yeah. Yeah. So we do a Kasutori shochu, uh, which is a shochu that’s made with sake byproduct that’s refermented and distilled. We also do any number of other shochus, some that are just purely rice-based, some that are essentially sake, that’s distilled. We do agave, we do sorghum. We’ve done one recently with sourdough bread. That’s been pretty fun. So we take sourdough from a, a local bakery that’s pretty, pretty renowned in Nashville. And once we have a critical mass of sourdough, we will ferment that again and make alcohol with it and then distill it.

Timothy Sullivan: 45:00
I bet that shochu is crummy.

John Puma: 45:03
I am. I am deeply curious as what that’s gonna taste like. I’m a big sourdough fan. I’m like listening. I’m like, Hmm, all right. All right. I, I want sourdough booze. That sounds pretty good.

Byron Stithem : 45:15
You know, it’s not as wild as we had hoped and expected. It’s actually quite palatable. Oh. Which was a surprise. I, I,

John Puma: 45:21
I appreciate that. You want me to temper my expectations? Yeah. Oh. So yeah. in what ways has the Nashville, uh, food culture and just culture in general and flavors influence proper sake?

Byron Stithem : 45:35
I would say initially the, the biggest reason for starting the brewery was that we just didn’t have these styles of sake. Mm-hmm. So for better or worse, that did have some, um, amount of information to get the whole thing off the ground. And then, yeah, the, the general culture around heavier cuisine, um, which continues to evolve, certainly probably played into the style of sake we make, um, over time. It’s also been really interesting to see Nashville’s as city grow, which for those of you not in there regularly or living there, it’s more or less doubled in size in the last decade. And that has been really interesting, from a culinary perspective because we have a lot of amenities and chefs and interesting beverage options that wouldn’t have existed previously. Uh, and it’s been kind of a, uh, an interesting adolescence and growth process to go along with that as well.

Timothy Sullivan: 46:34
Okay. I’ve got a good question here. Mm-hmm. For Byron, how much of your sake is the result of happy accidents versus, or scientific planning? Hmm. What goes into the different styles you brew? Happy sake day.

Byron Stithem : 46:50
Thank you. Happy sake day. Um, I would say we’ve been pretty fortunate with the amount of accidents that we’ve had, uh, happier otherwise, and part of that probably being that the more robust styles of sake lend themselves to these wilder flavors anyways, so it’s possible that. A happy accident I found to be more interesting than not. Um, I would say one interesting development as of late is now that we’re distilling, if something doesn’t taste exactly as we’d like, it goes into the rot map and now it gets distilled and we’re gonna find it in our spirit guide.

John Puma: 47:33
No, not a chance. And it comes back to the sake again. Nice, nice. Um, so I have a, I have a question. I’m gonna anonymize this. This is from, from somebody from Japan who’s going back to Japan tonight. They were very, yes. Who could it be? Anyway, uh, they’re, they were really impressed by the aroma and the taste of, of the sakes that you brought tonight. But I wanna know how, how you think that we can, like mainstream, this kind of thing in the U.S. how do we get sake into places that are not just Japanese cuisine? Because that’s always been the trick. That’s the question. That’s like the thing everybody wants to crack is how do we get this into other places?

Byron Stithem : 48:16
Yeah. I think that is the gazillion dollar question. Mm. And I guess I would come back to the original thesis around, what our idea is, is to take sake directly to the people. And the goal there is that people can. access and learn about sake at their own chosen speed. Um, and hopefully that is accretive then to the greater market, um, which we are always trying to sell sake to non-Japanese restaurants and more and more pick it up over time. but I think it is interesting that the market continues to grow and more and more of these, whether it’s Michelin starred restaurants or, you know, interesting non-Japanese restaurants begin to pick up a wider sake list because they realize it works better with cuisine than, than a lot of different wines or beers. Uh, I, I guess ultimately it all comes back to the, the slower growth process that sake has, whether intentionally or otherwise brought upon itself. Um, that will hopefully lead to, you know, very sustained and long term growth. Again, it seems like it is one of the few beverages that is doing okay in this downturn of alcohol consumption. Yeah,

John Puma: 49:30
yeah. Yeah.

Byron Stithem : 49:32
Do you have any more questions?

John Puma: 49:33
Um, uh, I do. How, how are you doing? I

Timothy Sullivan: 49:36
have

John Puma: 49:36
two more. Yeah, two more. Go for it. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 49:38
So this is a question for Byron. What is a less commonly visited Prefecture for sake, that you would recommend? Mm.

Byron Stithem : 49:46
We were talking about this earlier. Fukushima is a fun one to go visit and, you know, it’s not like they need your support, but they would love it, I’m sure. Yeah. There obviously were incidents that happened at some point that maybe made it difficult for brewers to keep their operations above, above water, I hate to say. But, um, yeah. Yeah. That. The idea being that Fukishima has some of the most interesting sakes and it’s finally being highlighted again. Mm-hmm. Um, in a really interesting way. And we’ve even seen some specific, brew related activities in New York, which was brought to my attention tonight. Mm-hmm. Yep. Anyways, yeah, I would highly encourage people to go visit. It’s a very short train ride from Tokyo. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 50:37
And Fukushima, they win ton of awards in Japan. Absolutely.

John Puma: 50:41
And, uh, I think that the aforementioned events have also discouraged people from visiting area and it’s a beautiful area and people should go over there. I mean, so many people are visiting Japan record numbers every year. Mm-hmm. And they’re going to the same few places. And I think that it really, behooves people to have a different experience by going someplace like Fukushima or, or going up north or. Know plenty of people go into Kyoto, Kyoto’s gonna be there later. It’s gonna be there.

Byron Stithem : 51:07
And also, yeah. You know, if you want to drink sake, yeah. Might not be the best place.

John Puma: 51:12
That is the question though. I think that we can open up though. Tim, what places do you like for people to have sake from?

Timothy Sullivan: 51:19
Well, I have to say niigata, I’m, I’m contractually obligated to say we got, alright.

John Puma: 51:24
Uh, imagining you are not contractually obligated.

Timothy Sullivan: 51:26
My number two is, uh, one place I visited off the beaten path is fukuoka fukuoka, Japan Is. Such a, it’s far from Tokyo and it’s such a wonderful place to visit, and, uh, that’s something I highly, highly recommend. It’s worth the trip and amazing sake, amazing food. Love it. How about you?

John Puma: 51:46
I, over the years I’ve become increasingly attracted to Aomori. Uh, for sake, I think that they have a lot of really good brew. I think there’s a few that get highlighted, but there’s a lot of great stuff from there. They have a style that, uh, reminds me of, of, it’s like Yamahai n kind of got together and. Made sake together. And so it’s, it’s got that fruit, it’s got that little bit of that, that, that dryness to it. Wonderful stuff. The regional style there is really fun to drink. Yeah. Fantastic. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 52:15
Are you ready for the napkin question? I don’t know. Yeah. So this is addressed to Tim and John, but I want to include Byron in this as well. Uh, what is your favorite sake Revolution episode? Oh, geez.

John Puma: 52:30
Oh, I wish you would’ve like, given us a, given us a hint of the beginning and that we needed to come up with the answer to

Timothy Sullivan: 52:35
this. Well, why don’t I go first?’cause I’ve had time to think about this. You have had

John Puma: 52:37
time to to, to ferment this idea.

Timothy Sullivan: 52:39
Yes. Oh, boo boo. Yeah. Yes. So, one of my favorite episodes is the episode where we talked about sake in cosmetics, and I made John Puma wear a face mask. Apply a sake kasu face mask. Yes. And he has a beard, so it kind of fell off the lower half of his face completely. And um, I did have to do some arm twisting to get this episode, to happen. But we did it and I really loved it. And I, I have a number two. My number two favorite episode is when you got sidelined and I got to do cheese and sake pairing with your wife. Myshell, so Sake and Cheese with Myshell mm-hmm. Is probably my number two favorite episode.

John Puma: 53:26
Oh, uh, Tim, I have a question here. Do you have plans to do another Sake and cheese episode with Myshell?

Timothy Sullivan: 53:31
Yeah, the answer is yes.

John Puma: 53:34
Oh, good.

Timothy Sullivan: 53:34
Yes.

John Puma: 53:35
Uh, I can still remember the, the cold wet all, all over my face from the mask of the mask. It was terrible. It was, it was fun. It, it was a lot. Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 53:48
John, do you have a favorite episode?

John Puma: 53:50
Honestly, and this is, this kind of just is, speaks to how I feel about television sometimes, I guess. But I loved the hundredth episode where we, we had like all of, all of our friends, all of our guests that came on to just pop on and say hi. And, you know, I just, it really like, it made me smile the entire time we were recording and we recorded that over the course of like, two hours. Yeah, it was just such a great time and so much fun to just kind of reminisce and talk to everybody and, about this journey that we had all been on together and, and their part in it, it really just made me smile. It was so great. Yeah. Yeah. And Byron. And Byron, which of one of your appearances?

Byron Stithem : 54:31
I mean, my favorite episodes definitely don’t include me, but, Aw. the early episodes during the pandemic. Oh, I mean, when we talked like this, pop, pop, you know.

John Puma: 54:44
So I think what was saying is that we were better when we were, were were less comfortable.

Byron Stithem : 54:48
It was, it was refreshing. I guess I needed that at that time. Mm. Yeah. So thank you for, for doing what you do. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 54:55
So, Sake Revolution was born of the pandemic.

John Puma: 54:59
Well, that wasn’t the plan though.

Timothy Sullivan: 55:00
It wasn’t the plan, but it happened. It was our pandemic project. It was our pandemic project. And, it’s been so much fun. Yeah. Uh, thank you for that. So We have a few other questions for you. The first one is, Byron, what’s next for you? And what’s next for Rice Vice? What, where are you headed next? Give us the tea.

Byron Stithem : 55:21
Interesting. Um, we have another bar in the works. Oh

John Puma: 55:28
yeah.

Byron Stithem : 55:28
So number three. Nice. Um, yeah. It’s still pretty early, but mm-hmm. We’re looking at Huntsville, Alabama. Nice. Which is, yeah.

John Puma: 55:37
No, I, I, I am familiar with the area. Yeah. Yeah. They could use a good sake bar.

Byron Stithem : 55:41
Yeah, I think so. I think so too. We’ll see. Um, and in terms of, of beverage offerings, we are always working on small batch ferments and small batch distillations. Um, especially to try and refine our cocktail menu and ultimately introduce things that will trick people into drinking sake. Yeah. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 56:02
Awesome. Love to hear it.

Byron Stithem : 56:03
Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan: 56:04
that’s great. That’s more fantastic, uh, information coming from you. Yeah. I wasn’t expecting that drop. That was nice. This is a, we’re gonna have to call this a news episode. This is a, yeah. Breaking news.

Byron Stithem : 56:14
Hopefully we can follow through on this.

Timothy Sullivan: 56:16
Yes. Alright. So our last question to you, Byron, is where can people find you online? If they wanna learn more about proper sake or Rice Vice Let us know. The dets.

Byron Stithem : 56:27
Yeah. Um, our, our Instagram page, which has gotten a little convoluted with all of the operations, will probably be split into three different spaces pretty soon. Mm-hmm. So if you want to follow all of those, you can. Um, if you’re looking for more in depth stuff, the, the newsletter is probably the place to go, which you can sign up on the website. Um, and I. Promise to be gentle with my newsletter offerings.

Timothy Sullivan: 56:52
Oh my. Yeah. So why don’t you tell us the, um, the current Instagram handle and the, your website?

Byron Stithem : 57:00
Yes. So, proper sake underscore Rice vice mm-hmm. Is gonna be currently the Instagram handle and then proper sake.co, rice, vice.co.

John Puma: 57:10
Do co. So, okay. Great. And alright, so here we got all of that. Tim, I think we’ve got most of our, yeah, our mainline items. I think we start to

Timothy Sullivan: 57:23
to

John Puma: 57:24
bring us

Timothy Sullivan: 57:24
out. Yes. It’s another sake day in the books. Oh my. I don’t know if I can revive go back and revise my answer about my favorite episode. I think it might be this one.

John Puma: 57:33
Aw, yeah. You’re so sweet.

Timothy Sullivan: 57:38
It’s very generous. Aw. Alright. Well Byron, thank you so much for coming to New York and being our special VIP guest for Sake Day 2025. It’s an absolute pleasure.

Byron Stithem : 57:50
Anytime Gents, anytime. And by that I mean. Anytime.

John Puma: 57:55
Well, anytime, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 57:57
Yes. Anytime. Well, we’re looking forward to having your sake in New York and we are so thrilled that you are able to join us today. This is very meaningful for us and very special. And, uh, we’re so happy to have you. So thanks again. Thank you. Yeah. Alright, and for all of our listeners who are joining us today, we want to thank you so much for tuning in and for all our Patreon supporters who are live streaming today. We want to thank you for being here

John Puma: 58:22
and in this room

Timothy Sullivan: 58:24
and in this room, at least a handful in this room. Yes. And, uh, we want to thank you so much for your support. If you’d like to support Sake Revolution, you can join us on Patreon, it’s patreon.com/sakerevolution. You can check that out to learn more.

John Puma: 58:39
Yeah. And normally I kind of pick one of these things from the list, but I’m gonna kind of go through a few of them today. So number one, show notes. We’ve got show notes that go on, uh, on the website for every episode. Tonight’s show notes will include photos of the labels for all the sakes you had tonight. It’s gonna have all the information about Rice Vice, about proper sake, you know, their newsletter, everything you’re gonna want to see. So even if you’re here in the room, you probably wanna check that out. We always have a written transcript of the episode, and I have mercy on whoever has to transcribe this one because it was, it was a lot. We have, uh, swag and t-shirts over at the shop at SakeRevolution.com. And you know, the algorithm still rules. So if you have a place you like to listen to podcasts, please go ahead and leave us a review. So on that note, please raise your glass. You guys catch some sake, right? Okay. Remember to keep a drinking sake and Kanpai!. Woo.

Episode 182. In December of 2024 “Sake” received a special recognition from UNESCO – the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. UNESCO is probably most famous for recognizing cultural heritage sites… like Mount Fuji or Himeji Castle. But in the case of of sake made with koji, it was recognized officially as an “Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity”. How cool is that? While this is not exactly hot-off-the-presses breaking news, we wanted to take a moment to recognize and reflect on this milestone. The craft of making sake with koji is worth protecting, celebrating and handing down to the next generation of artisans. Join us as we sip some some sake and enjoy our favorite Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity together. #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 01:31 Unesco

Traditional knowledge and skills of sake-making with koji mold in Japan

Sake is an alcoholic beverage made from grains and water that is deeply rooted in Japanese culture. Craftspeople use koji mould to convert the starch in the ingredients into sugar. They oversee the process to make sure the mould grows in optimal conditions, adjusting the temperature and humidity as needed. Their work determines the quality of the sake. Viewed as a sacred gift from deities, sake is indispensable in festivals, weddings, rites of passage and other socio-cultural occasions. Although it is mass-produced today, craftspeople continue to make sake the traditional way. Chief sake makers, called ‘toji’, lead sake brewery workers, called ‘kurabito’, in the practice and transmission. Originally, sake was made only by women. As demand increased, men became involved in the process. Today, people of all genders can master the knowledge and skills. Sake-making is transmitted through apprenticeships. Regional unions also support breweries, and two national organizations established by craftspeople contribute to the systematic transmission of the practice, with the financial and technical support of the Japanese government. Since sake-making requires many hands and strong teamwork, the practice promotes social ties among the craftspeople. It also unites them with local residents, including the farmers who provide the ingredients, thus contributing to social cohesion.

– UNESCO WEBSITE

UNESCO Website: https://ich.unesco.org/en/RL/traditional-knowledge-and-skills-of-sake-making-with-koji-mold-in-japan-01977

---

Skip to: 1:41 Sake Tasting: Brooklyn Kura Ashokan & Blue Door

Gangi Natsu Karakuchi Junmai

Alcohol: 15.0%
SMV: +9
Brewery: Yaoshin Shuzo
Classification: Junmai
Importer/Distributor: Mutual Trading
Rice Type: Yamadanishiki, Saito no Shizuku
Rice Milling: 60%
Yeast: Kyokai 901
Acidity: 2.0

Suigei Koiku 54 Junmai Ginjo

Alcohol: 16.0%
SMV: +6.7
Brewery: Suigei Shuzo
Classification: Junmai Ginjo
Importer/Distributor: Mutual Trading
Rice Type: Gin no Yume
Rice Milling: 50%
Yeast: kumamoto Kobo
Acidity: 1.7

---

Skip to: 30:38 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:22
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first Sake podcast. I am, uh, your host, John Puma. I am the guy who runs the internet sake Discord, as well as Reddits r slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:40
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center. As well as the founder of the Urban Sake website, and every week John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:59
Well, hello Tim. How are you doing today?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:04
Hey John, good to see you. I’m doing good.

John Puma: 1:07
Excellent. I’m glad to hear it. today’s episode is gonna be a little more, uh, informative, I think or, or focused on information and Yeah, but, but not, but not the normal kind of how sake is made. Kinda information. We’re not gonna be talking about Ginjo necessairly and what, but we’re gonna be talking about something a little bit more, uh, a little bit more, um, intangible maybe. Maybe,

Timothy Sullivan: 1:31
Well. I, let me start by asking you this. If I say the word unesco, first of all, unesco, do you know what that stands for? And what do you think of when you hear the word unesco?

John Puma: 1:44
I think of high school ’cause I think that’s when I first heard the term unesco. I think it’s also the last time I knew what UNESCO stood for.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:54
Well, I can refresh your memory. UNESCO means the United Nations Educational, scientific and Cultural Organization. So this is an agency of the United Nations fosters international cooperation with education, science, and culture. So it’s a, it’s an agency of the United Nations. And I think there’s one thing that UNESCO is really famous for, right?

John Puma: 2:20
I know that they do the world heritage stuff. They focus on kind of finding things that are like culturally relevant to different, to different countries, uh, and, you know, and their, and their impact on the world at large. And try to represent and, and focus on these things and be like, okay, this is special and this is why it’s special.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:40
Yeah. What I think most people think of when they think of UNESCO is the World Heritage Program, which, uh, is a program that UNESCO runs to identify, preserve, and protect cultural and natural sites that they say are of outstanding universal value, and. In the US we have a number of UNESCO World heritage sites. The Grand Canyon is one. The Statue of Liberty is one, but they also have some in Japan. So Himeji Castle and Mount Fuji are both cultural heritage sites. Um, yeah. Everywhere around the world they have about. 1,248 as of right now. So there’s 1,248 of these, uh, world Heritage sites around the world.

John Puma: 3:34
Cool. That’s pretty nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:36
And that’s like, that’s I think, the most famous thing that you UNESCO does. And when you visit a place and they say, oh, we’re a World Heritage site, you know, that has a certain cachet, right.

John Puma: 3:47
Right. Or or at least, or at least they want you to think so. No. No. Um, no. Uh, yes. Absolutely. Yes.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:55
Yeah. So, but in addition to that, UNESCO has, uh, many layers to, to what they do. They also have a program that recognizes what they call intangible cultural heritage. So the, the world heritage sites are physical places.

John Puma: 4:13
Sure.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:14
And the intangible cultural heritage of humanity is another thing that they focus on, and that’s more. Uh, you know, as intangible as you said before, it’s, it’s things that are, uh, traditions or expressions of humanity that are passed down from ancestors, ancestors to descendants. These could be things like performing arts, rituals. Festival events, but what we’re gonna focus on today is something that was recently added to this intangible cultural heritage of humanity that has to do with sake. And this falls into the tradition of preserving traditional crafts.

John Puma: 4:58
So now sake is considered a traditional craft.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:01
Yes.

John Puma: 5:02
Ooh, sake making, I guess I should say.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:04
yes. So. The official description of what they have recognized as an intangible cultural heritage of humanity is the traditional knowledge and skills of sake making with Koji mold in Japan.

John Puma: 5:22
That’s very specific.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:24
Let me, let me read that again. The traditional knowledge and skills of sake making with Koji mold in Japan.

John Puma: 5:30
So, hang on a second, is you said sake making.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:35
yes.

John Puma: 5:35
I’m an American, so I need to ask you, are we talking sake making h you making or are we talking sake making alcohol? Making,

Timothy Sullivan: 5:45
Yeah, so that’s a really good point, John. In Japan, the word sake means alcohol in general. I think we’ve mentioned that before on the podcast.

John Puma: 5:55
if we didn’t, we’re not to run our jobs.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:57
No, I remember we did the How to Order Sake in Japan, episode one of our most popular travel. Travel sake vocabulary episode, and we mentioned there that the word sake in Japan means alcohol in general. So when they say here that they’re recognizing the traditional knowledge and skills of sake making with Koji mold, they’re referring to making alcohol with Koji. That includes what we call sake nihonshu, but it also refers to awamori and Shochu for that matter.

John Puma: 6:32
Interesting. So, so even though we’re talking about sake on this podcast, nihonshu, if you’re in Japan, uh, this unesco uh, recognition is that, is that the right word for it?

Timothy Sullivan: 6:46
yeah. That’s right.

John Puma: 6:47
Okay. This recognition covers the whole thing, the whole gamut.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:53
Any alcohol in Japan made with Koji Falls under the recognition of this UNESCO listing. And there are over 670 elements that have been added to UNESCO’s intangible cultural history lists. Um, in Jamaica, reggae music is recognized as an, uh. As a intangible cultural heritage of humanity. And in India, they’ve recognized yoga.

John Puma: 7:25
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:26
Uh, in Japan. In Japan, they have a number of intangible cultural heritages, including kabuki theater that was recognized in 2008. Um. washi paper making, you that Very delicate Japanese paper making. And also washoku, which is traditional Japanese cuisine. So Japanese cuisine was also recognized as an intangible cultural heritage of humanity. So to this li very esteemed list, they

John Puma: 7:57
right up there with reggae? No, I, I actually, I, I honestly am like, yeah, reggae should be on there. That’s like, awesome. I think that’s really cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:07
Yeah. And it’s, if you know, we’ll put a link to the UNESCO World Heritage Site and it’s fun to just like look through and see what for different cultures of the world, like what they’ve petitioned to be recognized as something that is of such a value to humanity, that it should be preserved and protected. And I think that, you know, I’ve listened to a few interviews with. Representatives from Japan, and this is something where you have to do a lot of paperwork and applications and you know, you have to apply to have this recognized, and it’s a political effort to, to get everyone in your country on board with submitting this to UNESCO and getting it recognized. But I think that there are, three reasons why they wanted to do this for sake, making with Koji.

John Puma: 9:01
Hang on a second before you go any further. I love that you said that there’s a lot of paperwork and, and, and effort that goes into this. And lemme tell you, if there’s a country that has people that, uh, that have that respect and appreciate the effort of paperwork, it is Japan. So they

Timothy Sullivan: 9:17
my

John Puma: 9:17
been like, let’s go, you know, let’s do this.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:20
You have not lived until you’ve gone to a Japanese stationary store. Oh my gosh. It, it is like a little slice of heaven for me. Uh. So that’s true, John. Yeah, they, they were down with that and they got it done. So this recognition was officially registered with UNESCO in December of last year, so 2024. So this recognition isn’t even a year old, but it was so much work, so much paperwork, so much political will to get this done. Why would they want to do this UNESCO recognition for. Sake made with Koji.

John Puma: 10:03
Well, I, I, in my mind, I feel like just is something that Japan would want with, with sake being a, a, a special thing to them and with. Sake, breweries popping up outside of Japan, at a rapid clip these days. And also, you know, sake making in Japan is a little bit in under threat, not just through, not just due to climate change, but also, uh, due to kind of like lagging domestic sales and things like that. I think this is something that they were hoping could maybe, uh, kind of given a punch in the arm. Was I right on any of that?

Timothy Sullivan: 10:36
Well, you were right saying that. The market for sake in Japan is shrinking. No one can dispute that it is shrinking and the market is not growing in Japan. But from the interviews I listened to for the different, uh, representatives that they actually have an ambassador to, uh, the UN from Japan, and that person kind of leads the charge for these types of recognitions. And I listened to an interview with him and he mentioned three things that. Really we’re the driving force behind wanting to get this recognition for sake making with Koji. Uh, the first one is that they hope that for everyday regular Japanese citizens, this will renew the interest in sake.

John Puma: 11:19
Okay. So, so that, that number one, it’s that, that, boom, I got that one.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:26
Yeah. And I think that makes sense. If something that is every day. In your culture is recognized on the world stage like that, how can it not help you, like, refocus your energy on that? I think that one is good. Uh, the next thing they mentioned was, uh, transmitting the skills of Koji making and sake making to the next generation. So when you have this renewed interest, maybe there will be more young people up and coming who will wanna learn these. Skills. It’s been recognized as something that is of cultural importance to humanity, not just to Japanese people, but to humanity. And these, uh, traditional crafts and methods of making Koji need to be preserved and protected. So that was another hope that this recognition will get people of younger generations to wanna learn how to do this.

John Puma: 12:18
Okay. All right. That makes sense. I, I got the, uh, the pop, the aging population, and, and I think we’ve talked about this on the show before. Now, I’m sure we’ve talked about this on the show before, but there is this, this idea in Japan among, specifically among the young people that sake is like the grandpa’s drink, right? It’s not, I don’t, I don’t even think it’s like your dad’s drink anymore. It’s probably moved on to like grandpa’s drink. Uh, and so, you know, a lot of the, the Sake Izakayas is that do really well or ones that are appealing to younger people and able to get them in the door and uh, and, and, and bring this to a new generation.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:54
Yeah. And the, uh, the third thing that they mentioned was connected to exports. Like the, the one area of sake sales that’s really growing is the export market for Japanese made sake. So, um, bolstering the reputation of sake on the world stage through this UNESCO recognition. I think they also hope that that will support and. Continue that trend of exports growing year over year and having it recognized, um, should support that according to the ambassador to the UN from Japan. And I think all those things make sense and, uh, yeah.

John Puma: 13:37
that’s pretty cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:38
So do you think they’ll be effective with those things? What do you think about this type of recognition? How does it land with you, JP?

John Puma: 13:46
I’m very glad they’re doing this, and I think that. It is important to showcase, you know, things that are special about your culture. And to me, obviously, I, I am a person that journeys to Japan every year to try new and interesting sake. And I live in a city that is very friendly to receiving sake. So, yeah, like I, I think that, it fits the bill, right? This is something very special and unique about their culture, about their situation. Uh, and I, and I, I love the idea of, the rest of the world stage, recognizing that at least that that’s my takeaway. That’s my main takeaway.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:30
Yeah. Well, maybe as. A button on this whole discussion. I actually went to the UNESCO site and I mentioned there was paperwork and forms to fill out, and there’s actually an application form for this recognition that was online. And they had a brief summary of their argument for wanting to get this recognition. And maybe as a way to conclude our discussion, would it, would you indulge me and let me just read this little paragraph about, uh, their thinking on

John Puma: 15:02
Please.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:03
Alright, so this is from the brief or the application to become a. Intangible cultural heritage of humanity for sake making with Koji. this is the nomination of the traditional knowledge and skills for sake making that have been developed through the accumulation of experience of craftspersons since ancient times

John Puma: 15:27
Mm.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:27
sake, also known as a Japanese alcoholic beverage made from grains and quality waters is deeply rooted in Japanese culture. An important feature of this element or of this application is using Koji mold, which converts starch in the ingredients into sugar craftspersons sprinkle koji mold spores onto steamed grain to start the fermentation process and oversee it to make sure the Koji mold grows to its optimal condition. They make adjustments to the temperature and humidity, which requires full use of their five senses. Their labor decides the quality of the sake, the skills using koji mold have been developed reflecting the natural features and climate of regions. And gave rise to various kinds of sake, meaning various kinds of alcohol such as nihonshu, which we know as sake, Shochu and awamori.

John Puma: 16:32
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:33
So they are proud of their skills and the public and private sectors that support them. This application is vital in present day Japan as a living heritage.

John Puma: 16:47
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:47
So they explained that really the crux here is the use of Koji and kind of harnessing koji mold as a way to get sugars out of grains and makes different alcohols from that is really at the crux of this application. So I think if you, if you look at the headline for this, it sounds like, oh sake is a cultural thing. By unesco, but it’s really not. It’s not what you and I call sake. It’s really alcohol made using Koji and the craft of using Koji and how important that is. And I think that’s really cool. You do have to dig a little deeper. You have to scratch the surface to get down to the true meaning of this intangible cultural heritage. But, uh, it’s really worthwhile to read the descriptions and learn what they’re really protecting here, which is the traditional craft and knowledge of making Koji.

John Puma: 17:50
Yeah, I, I wanna say that, you know, prior to looking. Further into it. And this is Oh, absolutely what you did here too. Uh, you know, when I, you first hear, oh, sake, blah, blah, blah, blah, unesco, and you think that they’re recognizing nihonshu like that is, uh, the, the immediate thought. Um, because in the West we just think of it that way and, and, uh. Even in my circles, in my head I hear, because they’re saying sake. I didn’t think to think they meant the Japanese term for sake. It is very interesting that it is the broader definition. Um, but yeah, it’s a thing that I’m glad they’re doing. You know, it’s a, I think it’s, it’s important. I don’t know, you know, I never know how much of an impact these things are gonna have. You know, I, I, all we can do is try, but we never know what, you know, what the end result will be. Uh, what do you think?

Timothy Sullivan: 18:36
Yeah, I think that 99% of the English speaking world when they read sake making with Koji, they’re gonna think of, of nihonshu of sake, that the way you and I understand it, and unfortunately I think that’s gonna leave Shochu and awamori a little bit. Uh, forgotten, but they’re in there too. They’re, they’re totally a part of this. So anyone who digs a little deeper will get the full picture. For me, as someone who has sake as a career, having this, as something to talk about in my classes, to talk to my students about this. You know, being recognized as a cultural heritage of humanity and how this craft needs to be passed on to the next generation and how important it is. Uh, that’s just really, really cool. And I think it’s well, well worth the effort

John Puma: 19:26
I think so too. Um, speaking of, quality products made with Koji that have the word sake in them, um, you know, we haven’t had any sake yet, Tim. I think we’ve got a, if we’re gonna be talking about, uh, about this and celebrating this,, this achievement, we should. We celebrated our own way and sip some of it. Now, I don’t have any shochu or Awamori on my desk right now, but I do, I do. As often. Is the case on this show have a nihonshu? Uh, and I believe you do too. Is that, is that the case?

Timothy Sullivan: 20:01
Yes, do not, do not tell Japan distilled, but I am freshed out of Shochu right at the moment.

John Puma: 20:07
Well.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:08
I think we’re gonna have to go with some old fashioned nihonshu, as we say, Japanese sake. And, uh, you and I have both selected one of our. Favorite brands each. And a wonderful, a wonderful expression of sake made from Koji. And uh, so John, why don’t you give us the lowdown on what you are tasting and then I’ll do the same for my sake.

John Puma: 20:35
This is. A sake I did not expect to have on this show because one thing that we always try to focus on is sake that you can get in the United States, and this is a sake that earlier this year I had in Japan, and the reason I had it was because the brand I love dearly, and it was a bottle. I thought there’d be no chance we’d be coming to the United States. So when I was in Hiroshima. I was at a, an izakaya and I saw they had this bottle of the Gangi Natsu Junmai, the, the Summer Sake from Gangi. And I absolutely love Gangi. Gangi is from Yamaguchi right by Hiroshima. Really, really great stuff there. And so I had, I had a sip of it, and this is, and I thought it was lovely, and I thought that was gonna be the last time I had that sake for quite a while. Lo and behold. Our friends here in New York at Mutual Trading have picked up this sake, and it’s now available here, and I could not be happier because I, I’m, again, a big fan of their stuff and, and I also really like Natsu sake. I’m happy when people bring it over and I’m always happy to see more of it here. So,

Timothy Sullivan: 21:46
Now, let’s clarify. You’re saying Natsu. Natsu, which means summer?

John Puma: 21:53
This is summer sake. This is not anything else. Oh my goodness, Tim, I didn’t even think of that. Uh. Anyway, so, um, this is, um, I’m gonna be drinking the, uh, Gangi Natsu, uh, they’re, they’re calling it Karakuchi, so it is a little dry, apparently. Uh, Junmai, uh, it is made with, Yamadanishiki for the Koji. And, uh, Saito no Shizuku for the Kakemai, the, uh, the Starch component. The rice polishing for both is 60%. We’re dealing with, Kyokai 9 0 1 yeast. The sake meter value, that measure of dry just sweet is plus nine. So that karakuchi was true. It is a touch dry, um, uh, a little more than a touch. The acidity is two and the A BV is 15%. So, uh, touch light, not as light as some natsu, but but a touch on the lighter side of things. Now, while I’m getting ready to pour this, Tim, why aren’t you talking about what you’ve got?

Timothy Sullivan: 22:52
Yeah, so I also wanted to pick a very classic and much loved brand from Japan to highlight this UNESCO honoring sake making with Koji. So I went with a sake from Suigei, Often known in English as drunken whale. This is a Junmai Ginjo, and this is their Suigei Koiku 54.

John Puma: 23:17
Yes, Uh, that’s a wonderful sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:22
Yeah. Uh, the rice variety that’s used is Gin no Yume polished to 50% remaining. The alcohol is 16%. Uh, the SMV is plus 6.7 with an acidity of 1.3. Uh, so I think this falls into the light and dry cleaner category. Right? Sounds right up

John Puma: 23:44
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:45
And, yeah. And the Prefecture is Kochi Prefecture.

John Puma: 23:51
Yeah. Wonderful sake from a wonderful Prefecture and a wonderful brewery.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:55
Yeah. All right, so I’m going to open this and get it into my glass.

John Puma: 23:59
Mm-hmm. And while you are getting that one into your glass, I’m going to take a little whiff of the aroma on my Gangi Natsu

Timothy Sullivan: 24:12
All right, John, so go for it. Why don’t you do your tasting first? Let’s hear. Um, I, I have not had the Gangi Natsu, but I don’t think it’s a secret If I reveal to the world here and now that I am a Gangi fanboy of the first order,

John Puma: 24:26
It just means you have taste, Tim. It’s okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:28
okay.

John Puma: 24:31
Hmm. Uh, so the aroma on this is, it is just a nice light, like fluffy kind of, um, pillowy aroma. Like a, like a very, not, not ginjo ka in your face, but a soft sort of, um, almost sweet rice. Very, very soft hints of fruit. This is wonderful. Very subtle. Uh, and then on the taste on the palate. Mm. So this is nice and dry, especially on the Finish. Nice and crisp. You would love this, Tim. This is right up your alley. Uh. there’s, there’s a tiny, it’s still a little bit of acidity on it too, not nothing too distracting just really goes really well. It’s all very well balanced. Hmm. It’s dry. It’s not aggressively dry. This wants food desperately. And I think it’s gonna go with a lot of nice things that you compare with it. That dryness is gonna go super well with fish, especially, I think this is the sushi lover’s dream right here. Hmm. Really good stuff. I’m very happy about it.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:40
Let’s talk for one moment about Natsu sake, um, summer, summer sake. What? If I’m a consumer and I see that the bottle says Natsu or summer sake on it, what can you kind of expect from that? Like what do you think I’ve, I’ve got some ideas about what it means and what, how I would serve it, but do you have any thoughts on that?

John Puma: 26:04
I do In my mind, uh, the Natsu, the Summer sakes, you’re generally gonna get a little bit of a lower A BV because this is, you know. You’re not just dealing with summer in, in whatever part of the world you’re in, you’re dealing with summer in Japan, which can be punishingly, hot and humid and super high A BV sake. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s not a great idea. When it’s really hot out, it’s gonna, you know, dehydrated. It’s, it’s not a, you know, it’s not the move. So, a little bit lower on the alcohol content and. also a little bit tend to be a tiny bit like crisper and drier, which I really enjoy. you know, just, just very like, you know, soft and drinkable stuff with a, with that, with that nice little bit of crispness on the, on the finish. I see that a lot. You know, you don’t get the, the viscous fruit bombs. You get the lighter, thinner, soft-bodied stuff, not the heavy, you know. It’s hot out. I’m gonna drink this heavy, high alcohol sake. Like, no, it’s gonna be stuff that’s gonna go nice and cold. It’s gonna be stuff that’s nice and smooth.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:07
Yeah, I think for me the primary note on serving a Natsu sake Susa is that it should be nice and chilly willy, like nice and cold. Uh, it is summer in Japan, as you said, and if you’re out there sweating to the oldies. Getting around Japan, you know, you want something that is gonna be cold and crisp, and I think that the drier styles lend themselves to that serving temperature, so, so well. So, uh, when I see Natsu, I think like this should be served icy, cold and crisp.

John Puma: 27:43
Absolutely.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:44
Yeah.

John Puma: 27:45
So let’s talk about the Suigei.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:48
Drunken whale.

John Puma: 27:49
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:51
Koiku 54. Uh, again from Suigei. If I give this a little, aroma test. Let’s see.

John Puma: 27:58
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:59
Okay, so this has aromatics that lean more towards the Rice-y side of sake. I’m not getting. Tropical fruits or a classic ginjo ka, I’m getting more of a balanced rice aroma, and it gives me the impression from smelling this, that I might get a hint of dryness on the palate, uh, just from like my intuition from smelling this type of aroma. So a little bit on the rice side, but very balanced, not overpowering, uh, not too much ethanol or alcohol aroma. Just really good balance, but more, more on the Rice-y side and let’s give it a taste. Hmm. So this is, really interesting. It does. It is overall dry. The finish is dry, uh, but it’s not crisp and light. This has a little bit of layered richness to it, and the rice flavor comes forward. The most. So again, I’m not getting much of a fruity characteristic at all. It’s, uh, bringing that Gin no Yume rice flavor forward.

John Puma: 29:03
Uh, for everybody at home. The Gin no yume was a rice cultivated by sake, well, not by sake brewers, but by farmers in Kochi, for sake, brewing specifically. So it is a local, specifically a local rice that’s been, that’s been bred specifically for Kochi sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:19
Yeah. When I sip on this, the word that keeps coming to mind is like layered or depth of flavor. Like you get the initial hit of the flavor and then it unlocks a few more layers. As the sake washes across your palate, and these are a little bit more grain or rice forward. Again, not getting much fruitiness or, uh, tropical fruits here, uh, more, uh, rice forward, but really delicious and above all, the balance is there, which is a danger when something. You’d call it rice. Is it too rice? No. You’ve got balance between the, small amount of residual sugar, the alcohol and the rice flavor. That kind of, um, like a, just a, a, a whisper of umami as well. All kind of play together really well and bring great balance. So I think this is a food friendly sake. The finish is, is a little drier than I was expecting, but I’m really enjoying it.

John Puma: 30:17
I mean, Ika is kind of known for making dry sake. I think they, the Tokubetsu Junmai is like the king of dry sake in some cases. Some people encountered that as their first, like first like super dry sake and they really like it a lot for that reason.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:30
yeah,

John Puma: 30:31
I think that this comes in a little bit lighter than, um, than the Tokubetsu Junmai. I think it’s a fabulous sake that’s so drinkable.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:39
Yeah, the Tokubetsu Junmai from Suigei, which we’ve had on the show a few times as well, that is like the poster child for medium bodied, dry sake. You know, just like, just, you know, if you’re out with your friend and they don’t know what to get, just say, just give them that and just say, here, drink this. You’re gonna love it. And it like wins every time.

John Puma: 30:59
It’s really good.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:00
Yeah.

John Puma: 31:02
So, Tim, this was a lot of fun. I, I, I learned a few things today about unesco. It’s been a long time since I’ve even thought about unesco. Uh, and thank you for bringing it to my attention. Uh, also fun to sip this with you.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:16
Yeah, I think that, you know, this happened last December, so we can’t classify this as breaking news. but I thought that this still warranted an episode and it warranted us taking a moment to pause and alert our listeners, who are all. You know, emerging sake fans of, all levels that, this is something that happened late last year and it’s something we can all look to, to raise the profile of sake across the world. So, uh, we couldn’t let it. Go without acknowledging this amazing elevation of, sake made with Koji as an intangible cultural heritage. So happy to talk to you about this. Thanks for indulging me, jp.

John Puma: 32:04
always a good time. Always a good time.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:07
All right. Well, it was great to taste with you. We had two amazing sakes on the show today. Um, I also want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. Thank you so much. We hope you enjoyed this episode. A special hello and thank you to all of our Patreon members. If you’re looking for a way to support Sake Revolution, one thing you can do is join us and support us on Patreon. Please visit patreon.com/sakerevolution to learn more.

John Puma: 32:35
And if you’re a fan of ours and you wanna check out our show notes, we talk about our show notes a lot on this show. And honestly, that’s because we put a lot of effort into them. And so, um, you know, there’s. Not just, uh, you know, pictures of the bottles for everything that we drink. We have a lot more in depth statistics on a lot of the sakes that we have. We also have a full transcript. If you, you know, wanna read something instead of listening, that’s completely fine. Yeah, so get over to sakerevolution.com and, uh, and check all of that out. Now, Tim, grab your glass and you went home too. Make sure you grab your glasses, we’re gonna congratulate sake on its intangible cultural heritage recognition from unesco. So remember to keep drinking sake and kanpai.

Episode 181. Sake Day, celebrated every year on October 1st, will be here before you know it, and Sake Revolution is here to be your guide! In this special episode, John and Timothy map out the most exciting Sake Day celebrations happening across the country in 2025, from San Francisco’s legendary 20th anniversary Sake Day to exciting events in Boston, Denver, D.C., San Diego, and New York. For devoted sake fans, Sake Day feels like all our favorite holidays rolled up into one, and we can’t wait to celebrate it. Wherever you are on your sake journey, let us help you plan the perfect place to have your own Kanpai on Sake Day! #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 1:41 Sake Tasting: Brooklyn Kura Ashokan & Blue Door

Brooklyn Kura Ashokan Junmai Ginjo

Alcohol: 15.5%
SMV: 0
Brewery: Brooklyn Kura
Classification: Junmai Ginjo
Importer/Distributor: Skurnik
Rice Type: Yamadanishiki
Rice Milling: 60%

Brooklyn Kura Blue Door Junmai Nama

Alcohol: 17.0%
SMV: +3.0
Brewery: Brooklyn Kura
Classification: Junmai Nama
Importer/Distributor: Skurnik
Rice Type: Yamadanishiki, Calrose
Rice Milling: 70%

---

Skip to: 06:12 Sake Day Calendar for 2025

---

Skip to: 08:08 Sept 20th, 2025: Sake Day San Diego

9th Annual San Diego SAKE Festival

Event Description: Get ready to sip, savor, and celebrate at the San Diego Sake Festival 2025 — proudly presented by San Diego Sake Club in collaboration with the JETRO LA. Taste your way through a curated selection of premium sake from Japan and the U.S., all in one unforgettable afternoon!
Date: Saturday, September 20, 2025
Location: JULEP Venue – 1735 Hancock St, San Diego, CA 92101
Time:
• VIP & Nonbei Entry: 2:30 PM
• General Admission: 3:30 PM
Tickets:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/9th-annual-san-diego-sake-festival-tickets-1373416348269?aff=oddtdtcreator

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA4pNWWV6VI

---

Skip to: 09:35 Sept 27th, 2025: Sake Day San Francisco

Sake Day San Francisco

Event Description: Taste Sake, Learn Sake, Buy Sake. We are back again and ready to Get Our Sake On! 20 amazing years and 20 years of “Sold Out” SAKE DAYs – so don’t miss out – order your tickets now.
Date: Saturday, September 27, 2025
Location: HOTEL KABUKI 1625 Post Street, San Francisco, CA 94115
Time: 4:00 PM
Tickets:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/sake-day-2025-tickets-1357275861639

Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Q1gXuXTDo

---

Skip to: 13:34 Oct 1st, 2025: NYC – Sake Revolution LIVE!

Sake Day 2025: Sake Revolution Podcast LIVE!

Event Description: Join us on SAKE DAY, Weds Oct 1st, 6PM, for a LIVE studio audience recording of America’s first sake podcast: Sake Revolution! Your hosts John and Timothy will be live and in person at the Brooklyn Kura Taproom and invite you to join in the studio audience, laugh and sip along with us and experience Sake Revolution LIVE! On this very special Sake Day episode, we’ll be interviewing the master sake brewer of Proper Sake, Byron Stithem. Byron is coming up from Nashville to join us in person and is bringing two sakes for us all to taste as we are recording – which is included in your ticket price. In addition, audience members will be able to submit questions to be answered live during the broadcast. This will be a fun, interactive and delicious podcast experience! The Brooklyn Kura taproom will be open before and after the recording to hang out, meet our special guest and purchase additional sake and snacks to make your Sake Day complete!
Date: Weds, Oct 1, 2025
Location: Brooklyn Kura Taproom 34 34th Street Brooklyn NY 112332
Time:6-9 PM
Tickets:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/sake-day-2025-sake-revolution-podcast-live-recording-and-tasting-event-tickets-1573729119159

https://www.brooklynkura.com/pages/events#id=sake-revolution-podcast-live

---

Skip to: 16:38 Oct 3rd, 2025: World Sake Day NYC 2025

World Sake Day NYC 2025

Event Description: Celebrate World Sake Day in NYC 2025 with the best sake tastings, food pairings, and cultural experiences!
Date: Friday, October 3 ·
Location: The W LOFT 240 Kent Avenue Brooklyn, NY 11211
Time: 5-9 PM
Tickets:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/world-sake-day-nyc-2025-tickets-1496911014139

---

Skip to: 17:54 Oct 4th, 2025: Denver’s Queen City Sake Festival

Denver’s Queen City Sake Festival

Event Description: Denver’s first craft sake festival. Taste a selection of over 100 sakes with passionate experts that make and love them!
Date: Saturday, October 4, 2025
Location: Finn’s Manor. 2927 Larimer Street Denver, CO 80205
Time:
• VIP Session: 12 – 1 PM
• General Admission: 1 – 4 PM
Tickets:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/denvers-queen-city-sake-festival-tickets-1458944555439

Video:
https://d1xykzbd1twk8p.cloudfront.net/ef9fef4a-1344-4975-b6a4-1ceff659d3ee_480p_vertical.mp4

---

Skip to: 19:26 Oct 4th, 2025: Boston – Sake Day East

Sake Day East 2025

Event Description: Are you ready for another amazing celebration?!Sake Day East 2025 Tickets on sale now! Join us at New England’s largest Sake Day celebration!

Date: Saturday, October 4, 2025
Location: 100 High St. 100 High Street Boston, MA 02110
Time:
• General Admission: 5 – 8pm EDT
Tickets:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/sake-day-east-2025-tickets-1344346940889

---

Skip to: 21:41 Oct 5th, 2025: DC Sake Co Kanpai to Sake Day in DC

DC Sake Co Kanpai to Sake Day in DC

Event Description: D.C. Sake cō celebrates its 4th Annual Kanpai! to Sake Day in DC at Love, Makoto with diverse sakes, deep insights & great food!

Date: Sunday, October 5, 2025
Location: Love, Makoto. 200 Massachusetts Ave NW. Ste. 150. Washington, DC 20001
• General Admission: 12-4 pm EDT
Tickets:
https://resy.com/cities/washington-dc/venues/dear-sushi-at-love-makoto/events/4th-annual-kanpai-to-sake-day-in-dc-love-makoto-2025-10-05

---

Skip to: 22:59 Oct 5th, 2025: NYC – Brooklyn Kura Sake Day Tasting Event

Brooklyn Kura Sake Day 2025

Event Description: Premium Sake Tasting: Taste sake from dozens of breweries from all over Japan. The SAKE will be flowing and featured brands and varieties being poured will change at 7pm~
5-7pm: Premium Sake Tasting Round 1
7-9 pm: Premium Sake Tasting Round 2

Interactive Brewery Tour!
Join us for a “taste along” brewery tour! Join a walk through of our brewery and taste each step along the sake brewing process:
Taste steamed sake rice at our Koshiki rice steamers
Taste koji rice outside our koji room
Taste moromi sake mash in our fermentation room
Taste kasu “Sake Lees” in our sake pressing room
Finish the tour with a freshly pressed Shiboritate Brooklyn Kura sake!

Date: Sunday, October 5, 2025
Location: Brooklyn Kura 34 34th street Brooklyn NY 10025
• General Admission: 5-9 pm EDT
Tickets:
https://www.brooklynkura.com/pages/events#id=brooklyn-kura-sake-day-2025

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/brooklyn-kura-sake-day-2025-tickets-1584479363429

---

Skip to: 24:38 Oct 10th, 2025: NYC – Sake Con Sake Day

Sake-Con Sake Day NYC 2025

Event Description: Prepare to immerse yourself in an epic SAKE-CON extravaganza!

Date: Friday, October 10, 2025
Location: 55 Broadway 55 Broadway New York, NY 10006
Time: 6-10 PM

Tickets:
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/sake-con-nyc-sake-day-2025-tickets-1486869549849

---

Skip to: 30:38 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:15
Hmm. Okay. Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s First Sake podcast, and I am your host, John Puma. I run the internet sake discord and also Reddit’s r slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:36
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center, as well as the founder. Of the Urban Sake website, and every week John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:54
Hey, Tim. How you doing?

Timothy Sullivan: 0:55
I am good. How are you, John?

John Puma: 0:58
Great, great. So, uh, my understanding is that today we’ve got something a little bit different. We’re gonna, we’re gonna flip the script slightly, is that right?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:06
That’s right. We are going to start with some drinking. And then get to some thinking.

John Puma: 1:12
Alright, starting with drinking. Excellent. That sounds fantastic. It’s my, the best way for me, uh, to start a podcast, I think is to start with the drinking. So, we’re not gonna be tasting the same thing today, but we will be tasting things from the same brewery. Is that, is that, do I have this right in my head?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:27
Yes. We need a little something to sip on while we talk about today’s episode. So let’s. Flip the script as you said, and start with our Kanpai John, why don’t you let us know what brand we’re featuring and which sake you are tasting.

John Puma: 1:41
So, we’re gonna be tasting some Brooklyn Kura. It’s a, you know, local sake that we’re both very familiar with, and I am gonna be having a, a newer product from them. Uh, I’m a fan of this one. Um, see Ashokan, Junmai Ginjo uh, and Yamada Nishiki Rice, and they’re milling it down to, 60% of its original size. Sake Meter value is plus three. And, uh, A BV is, 15%. When I first heard the name, Ashokan, I thought it was like some kind of Japanese word I didn’t understand. And then I was told later on that it’s actually named for the reservoir. Uh, upstate where they get where they get the water, which I thought was interesting. A bit of a, a bit of a anti-climactic finish for that one for me. Uh, Tim, what about you? What are you drinking?

Timothy Sullivan: 2:29
I am gonna be drinking a sake. We’ve featured a few times on the podcast before. It’s the Brooklyn Kura Classic Blue Door.

John Puma: 2:36
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:36
This is one of their foundational sakes that they’ve had for years, and it is a junmai sake that’s made with Calrose and yamadanishiki rice. Rice milled to 70%. The sake meter value is plus two. We have an acidity of 1.8 and a little bit higher alcohol percentage of 17%. And this is also a NAMA or unpasteurized sake.

John Puma: 3:03
Yeah. Why don’t we, have a couple of sips and, uh, then we’ll get started talking about our topic today, which Tim, why don’t you, um, begin opening up your, your sake and I’ll quickly mention what our topic is. Sake Day is coming up and every year it feels like there’s more sake events for Sake Day. And we think that, it’s kind of cool to do a little primer and kind of get everybody. Up to speed on what’s coming and, uh, you know, if they’re local to any of the areas or if you like traveling, you know, what, what’s in store for them if they decide to go to one of these sake day events. In some cases, Tim or I have been to some of these events and we have some, some hands-on that we can talk about, about our experiences. So Tim, do you have that blue door opened up?

Timothy Sullivan: 3:47
I got it poured. And John, I just want to tag onto what you just said. Sake day is our Christmas. Thanksgiving and 4th of July all rolled into one. For sake, people like you and me, this is the highlight of our year. So we got a plan, our strategy for getting to as many of these events as we can. So I’m so excited to go over the calendar with you from, it’s literally from coast to coast. We have sake events coming up,

John Puma: 4:16
Literally, quite literally, yes.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:18
So I’ve got my blue door poured. How about you, John?

John Puma: 4:22
Um, yeah. So I’m going to grab this Ashokan. And I’ve got that in the glass now. Uh, Tim, I also think, if I’m not mistaken, this ashokan is also a blend, which I find a very interesting thing that we’ll probably need to go in depth on this in the future.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:38
Yeah.

John Puma: 4:39
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:40
All right. Well, John, here’s Sake Day in advance.

John Puma: 4:44
Here’s to Sake day Tim, and it’s weird to do this so early in a show, but

Timothy Sullivan: 4:48
Here we go.

John Puma: 4:49
Kanpai,

Timothy Sullivan: 4:52
Mm. Now my Blue Door from Brooklyn Kura is one of their sakes. They’ve made for a long time. It’s a little more rice forward. But you get that richness from the unpasteurized side of it, really food friendly and uh, just a great foundational sake for pairing with food. You can open it and pair it with just about anything. It’s really great. Always a winner.

John Puma: 5:21
Nice. And this is Ashokan despite being newer to their line of sake is, It’s very light, very crisp and there is a really nice, pleasant acidity across the whole taste, which I really enjoy. So, yeah, this is, this is some good stuff.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:38
Hmm. Can’t go wrong. We’re gonna start out, and I wanna say that, this calendar from. Mid September to just after Sake day, is going to be available in our show notes. So if, if any of the events are near you or you want to travel to them, if you want details on where to buy tickets, that will all be in our show notes. So please visit SakeRevolution.com. Check out the show notes for this episode, and we will have a full calendar of all the events we’re highlighting today.

John Puma: 6:12
Wonderful. Wonderful. Cool. So, so Tim, where do you wanna start?

Timothy Sullivan: 6:16
Well, first I think we should take just one minute and talk about what Sake Day is, when is it,

John Puma: 6:23
we have an episode about that, but I will, I’ll let, I’ll let this, I’ll let the reminder happen in this case.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:28
Oh, thank you. Yeah. So Sake Day is October 1st, right?

John Puma: 6:34
Yep.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:34
And what’s the deal? What’s it all about?

John Puma: 6:37
Uh uh, it is, uh, the day is the day the brewing season starts.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:43
That’s right. So it’s a, it’s a day that is set aside to kind of celebrate the kickoff of the brewing season. And it’s a day to stop and celebrate all things sake and focus the world’s attention on the beverage that we love so much. And I think it’s a great day to celebrate. And, you know, beer has St. Patrick’s Day. Tequila has Cinco de

John Puma: 7:05
that, is that what has St. Patrick’s Day? I don’t know if, I don’t know if, if the Irish agree with beer having St. Patrick’s Day necessarily, but, we’ll, you know, we’ll let them write in and tell us what they think about that.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:22
Well, I’m just, I am just glad sake

John Puma: 7:24
does tequila have you say

Timothy Sullivan: 7:25
Cinco de Mayo.

John Puma: 7:26
Mayo. We’re

Timothy Sullivan: 7:29
No. Am I wrong? Am I way off base?

John Puma: 7:31
I don’t know. now. All right. But, but we, but we have Sake Day. We do

Timothy Sullivan: 7:37
We have Sake Day, and there’s, there’s no, there’s no ambiguity about it. Sake day is dedicated to sake, and it is October 1st. So the, the events start happening in like late. September through early October, so all cluster around October 1st. And I thought it, it would be great to do a little overview for all of our listeners all around the country to see which sake day events they might want to go to. So coming up first is the ninth Annual San Diego Sake Festival in celebration of Sake Day, and that’s gonna be on Saturday, September 20th. So this is San Diego, California’s largest sake celebration.

John Puma: 8:25
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:26
have you ever been to this one?

John Puma: 8:27
Uh, San Diego you say.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:29
San Diego?

John Puma: 8:30
No, I’ve been to a different San based,

Timothy Sullivan: 8:35
We’ll get there soon. We’ll get

John Puma: 8:36
get there soon, but no, I’ve not, I have not been to San Diego in,, since I was a teenager, so it’s been a while.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:41
Alright, well. This is a Sake Festival that’s been going for nine years, so that’s a pretty long time for celebrating Sake Day in San Diego. Uh, this is going to be, again, Saturday, September 20th. They have a VIP entry at 2:30. General admission at 3:30 and the tickets are on sale already. So if you are in the San Diego area, this is one not to be missed. The tickets are on Eventbrite, but again, just visit SakeRevolution.com. We have a YouTube video from a past year, so you can kind of get the vibe for this event. And then, tickets, will have a link for that.

John Puma: 9:19
So Tim, have you ever been to this one?

Timothy Sullivan: 9:21
No, I’ve never been to the San Diego Sake Festival, but it has been around for a while. And, uh, definitely the early, early side of Sake Day celebrations.

John Puma: 9:32
of course. Yes. Uh, okay. So what’s next?

Timothy Sullivan: 9:36
We’re gonna stay on the West coast for what I would call, you know, my favorite phrase, the big kahuna right here.

John Puma: 9:42
Mm,

Timothy Sullivan: 9:44
Sake Day San Francisco

John Puma: 9:48
Now this one?

Timothy Sullivan: 9:49
Oh my gosh. We’ve both been

John Puma: 9:51
Yeah. This one I’ve been to

Timothy Sullivan: 9:53
when? Is this year’s happening?

John Puma: 9:55
This year it’s, Saturday, September the 27th. So they’re, they’re getting in there ahead of time.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:01
Yeah, that’s good. It’s on a weekend, which is always appreciated.

John Puma: 10:04
I think it’s important for, to do a weekend.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:07
It’s gonna be from four to 8:00 PM at the Hotel Kabuki, and there are tickets online at Eventbrite, but last time I checked, this event is already sold out.

John Puma: 10:19
Yeah, this one sells out fast, and I don’t even think it matters how soon we would’ve done this episode. This would’ve sold out beforehand. It’s a very, very, um, popular event. There’s a lot of people there. It’s probably the biggest of the events we’re gonna talk about, but. Man, is it, it’s a lot of people. It sells out real fast. It’s a great time though.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:39
Yeah, and this is the 20th anniversary for Sake Day San Francisco. So this is the first Sake Day event that. Was held in the States. This is the a big granddaddy event, and uh, it is very popular, very successful. You and I have both been, so let’s hear about your experience at Sake Day, San Francisco.

John Puma: 11:01
Um, so for me it was a. It was a very special event because not only was it my first trip to Sake Day, San Francisco, but it was coming outta the pandemic. It was the first one they’ve done since then. And it was for me and Myshell, like the first time we went to a big social event. You know, outside of like New York. And so going over there, getting to the West Coast and, you know, during the pandemic we met all of these really wonderful people, um, on the discord and on different sake tasting events on virtual, like onnomis and stuff like that. And so it was great to finally see and meet and drink with so many of these people that I had, I, I had. Known, quote unquote, but had never actually sat and, and, and broke bread with, or, or kanpai’d with. And it was a really wonderful experience. And on top of that, just the event itself is just so big and it’s just, you know, so much wonderful sake. And if you are an East coast person. There’s something you should know, and that is the West Coast. Even from the same importers gets different sake. You can try just stuff that you can’t get in New York.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:04
Yeah, I went last year for the first time and I was pouring Hakkaisan Sake as a vendor and I got, got to break away for a little amount of time and walk around, but it’s on two floors. There are dozens and dozens of tables, representing different brands, distributors, importers, and it was so full of sake. Goodness, you could not believe it. So.

John Puma: 12:33
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:33
Really highly recommended. Um, and for this year there’s actually going to be, I’m privy to a little bit of insider information. There’s going to be, yes, there’s going to be a sake Samurai reunion and sake samurai table at this year’s Sake Day, San Francisco.

John Puma: 12:51
how are you gonna do this? You gotta split your time, like what’s going on?

Timothy Sullivan: 12:55
Yeah, so there’s one table dedicated to Sake Samurai and they will be pouring, I think every 45 minutes. It’s gonna change. A couple samurai’s are gonna come in and pour certain sakes and throughout the night you can meet all the different Sake samurai’s from the years. And uh, I’ll be on one of those shifts when I’m not at the Hakkaisan table.

John Puma: 13:16
Wonderful. So yeah, if you can, if you are there, you can meet Tim twice. You meet him at two different, completely different tables.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:26
Yes. And if you say you are a fan of Sake Revolution, you will get a sticker.

John Puma: 13:32
Oh, is that it?

Timothy Sullivan: 13:34
so John, the next event is hitting very close to home

John Puma: 13:38
Yeah. Um, yeah, so the next event is October the first on Sake Day itself on a Wednesday. Um, and it is, uh, pardon, pardon the. Strong self-promotion. Here

Timothy Sullivan: 13:55
Shameless,

John Puma: 13:56
shameless self-promotion here, the shameless self-promotion. Here it is. Sake Day. Sake Revolution live. And so it’s gonna be me and it’s gonna be you, Tim. And we’re gonna be at Brooklyn Kura and we’re gonna do, uh, a live episode of the show. On stage. There’s gonna be sake to drink. There’s gonna be. Uh, you know, other, I’m sure there’ll be other fun people to hang out with there as well. There always are. And yeah, we’re gonna do a special episode. We’re gonna have a guest, which is gonna be a lot of fun. So, uh, Tim, who’s going to be our special guest

Timothy Sullivan: 14:32
We are going to have Byron Stithem, the owner and Brewer from proper sake in Nashville, Tennessee. Byron is gonna fly up and join us as our special guest, and we’re gonna be including, uh, two sakes from his brewery as the tasting flight that every attendee who comes to our live recording is gonna be able to taste along with us at the Brooklyn Kura tap room. So it’s gonna be fantastic. Now we have to mention we did this last year with, Shinobu Kato and Brandon Doughan from Kato Sake Works and Brooklyn Kura. So we’re continuing on with the theme of having a US brewer in the house with us. And I don’t know about you, John, but when we did our live recording last year for Sake Day, I had an absolute blast. Like it was so much fun. It was so much fun.

John Puma: 15:24
it was, I had a great time also. It was just, Such a, you know, just blast is the right word. Yeah, it was such a fun time and I was, I think I had to like get on a flight the next day too. So I was very nervous about making sure that everything was in order and all that. So I’m really looking forward to being able to enjoy it a little bit more and have a little bit, you know, a little more relaxation on it. Very excited though. It’s gonna be such a, a great, uh, event.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:48
So if you are in the New York City area, and we are the only event I found that’s actually happening on sake day, proper sake, October 1st. If you’re in the New York City area, please join us at the Brooklyn Kura Tap room. Tickets are available at brooklynkura.com and also on Eventbrite. And as always, for all these events, just visit our show notes to get the link directly to tickets and. This is an affordable event too. It’s only$15. That includes, uh, entrance to the live recording, uh, tasting flight of two sakes. There will be other sakes available for purchase along with snacks, but it’s a great affordable price to come in and be with some fellow sake nerds for sake day.

John Puma: 16:31
Yeah, I hope to, uh, you can get over there and join us. I be a lot of fun. So Tim, what’s after that?

Timothy Sullivan: 16:38
Okay. After that, we have another. New York City Sake event. This is World Sake Day, New York City 2025, and it is on Friday, October 3rd from five to 9:00 PM at the W Loft Rooftop in Brooklyn. Now, have you been to this event before? They’ve had it for a few years now.

John Puma: 16:56
No. So last year, as mentioned, I was going outta the country right after our event. So I missed everything else that went on that weekend, which, uh, very sad about. It was nice to go on vacation, so I’m not complaining too loudly. This does look like a lot of fun, though. I’ve never, have you ever been to the W Loft? In Brooklyn.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:13
No, I have not. But I do have some details about this event. Uh, the admission is$65 and that will get you 15 tasting tickets. And then, uh, they say they’re going to have 35 Japanese and US sake breweries represented.

John Puma: 17:33
Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:34
Um. And the tickets will be available on Eventbrite. And again, see our show notes for more details. so moving on. That’s October. which is the Friday, and moving to the Saturdays. So this is that, valuable weekend, right after

John Puma: 17:51
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:52
day when a lot of events happen.

John Puma: 17:54
Yes, yes. Saturday we’ve got, Denver’s Queen City Sake Festival for those in the, uh, in the Denver area or would, or those who would like to be in the Denver, Colorado area, uh, this is an event for you.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:07
And this is gonna be Saturday, October 4th from one to 4:00 PM Mountain Time.

John Puma: 18:12
Ooh. Afternoon. It’s a little day drinking going on. Alright.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:17
Now, did you know Denver was known as Queen City?

John Puma: 18:20
No, I thought that was like Charlotte.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:23
I don’t know. They say, they say it’s Queen City, so I did not know that. Um, this is an event that features over 100 sakes

John Puma: 18:33
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:33
and they have a few different tiers. They have a VIP early access ticket and they also have a general admission ticket. And it looks like it comes with a free, locally handmade. Sake cup as part of your admission and I have a video of this event as well you can check out on our show notes and it looks like a whole lot of fun. This is held at a place called Finn’s Manor in Denver, and it is gonna be a fun afternoon of hashtag day drinking.

John Puma: 19:06
Uh, yeah, I, I’ve actually never been, not only have I not been to, uh, this event, I’ve actually never been to Denver. Don’t, uh, don’t get out much. Go to Japan a lot. That’s about it.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:16
Yeah, well on Saturday, October 4th, there’s this event in Denver, but there is competition on the East coast. Uh,

John Puma: 19:25
what else is there?

Timothy Sullivan: 19:26
the other event happening on Saturday, October 4th is Sake Day East.

John Puma: 19:32
Ooh, I’ve heard of this one.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:34
Yes. So it’s called Sake Day East. This is New England’s largest Sake Day celebration. Uh, they’ve been doing this for several years. Have you been to Sake Day East, John Puma?

John Puma: 19:45
no. I, like I said, I don’t get out much.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:50
Well, I’ve been to Sake Day East several years, and it is very fun.

John Puma: 19:56
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:57
this is an interesting event. They do the tasting event, which is your standard walk around tasting. Uh, but they have a pre-event guided seminars. So they’re doing a little education piece that starts at like three to 5:00 PM

John Puma: 20:14
Oh, okay.,

Timothy Sullivan: 20:15
for an additional fee, you can come early and do a guided tasting with several sake experts that will be there. We have Todd Bellamy doing one. There’s a representative from Heiwa Shuzo is gonna be there. Our friend Josh from Joto Sake is gonna be there. And so they have these, pre-event seminars that they do, which is really fun. And then the main event kicks off, either at five or six o’clock if you want, early admission or not. So there’s a lot of options, a lot of education, a lot of tasting you can do. Uh, this is a really rich event. Lots to, lots to check out here.

John Puma: 20:58
Nice, nice. Being, uh, being on the East Coast is something that maybe I should consider. It’s only an Amtrak away.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:04
That’s right. Yeah. Fantastic. So it’s a great event. I’ve really enjoyed it, uh, the past years that, that I’ve been able to go there. And I know that, Brooklyn Kura will be represented along with a whole bunch of other distributors. I, the one year that I went, they had a, a cheese purveyor there who did these little bento boxes of cheese and you could buy those with your sake and like nibble on the cheese and walk around. It was great. I loved it.

John Puma: 21:31
Nice. Well, if, um, you’re on the East Coast and going up to Boston is a little out of the way for you, perhaps you’ll enjoy going down to DC because on Sunday, October 5th there is the DC Sake Co Kanpai to Sake Day in DC That’s

Timothy Sullivan: 21:50
Where, where is it?

John Puma: 21:51
it’s, I think it’s in dc Uh, and I think that you’re doing Kanpai-ing and you’re having sake in dc. this is uh, run by DC Sake Co’cause their name’s right in the front and we’ve had Reiko from there on the show before. And, uh, so she’s a friend of the show

Timothy Sullivan: 22:06
Yeah, so the unique thing about this DC Sake co event, it’s that it’s gonna be held at a restaurant. They’re doing this in collaboration with a restaurant in DC called Love Makoto, which is a fabulous restaurant. So I think they have the ability to do these seated luncheons as a, first step, and then they do general admission later in the day. So this is, this is an afternoon. Day drinking event, which again, two thumbs up, we wholeheartedly approve. It allows you to go on and enjoy the rest of your night and, uh, but this, this is just fantastic.

John Puma: 22:42
Yeah. Let’s say you are on the East Coast, um, but you know, DC’s kind of far and Boston’s kind of far, uh, and you happen to be in New York on Sunday, uh, October the fifth. Well, we’ve got you covered. There’s an event in New York for that as well. Uh, Tim, what do we have?

Timothy Sullivan: 22:59
Yeah, so this is another little bit of shameless self-promotion. You can’t deny us that, uh, Brooklyn Kura is gonna be doing its own celebration for Sake Day on Sunday, October 5th, and that’s going to be in the Brooklyn Kura tap room. Uh, we’re gonna be inviting a number of distributors to come and, uh, tickets will be available on BrooklynKura.com and also on Eventbrite. And this will be a really fun walk around tasting. We’re going to have some. Guest chefs come in and do pop-up food. We’re going to have a DJ playing music. We’re going to have a, uh, enhanced interactive brewery tour we go around the brewery and you’re gonna be able to taste steamed sake rice by the steamer. You can drink Moromi in the fermentation room. You can. Do a whole lot of tasting of Koji by the Koji room. And you can also taste some kasu by our Yabuta sake press. So as we walk through the brewery, you get to nibble on all the stages of the sake brewing process. And it’s really fun. We don’t do this very often, but for special events like Sake Day, we’re gonna do these interactive brewery tours. And uh, Brandon is also gonna get out his Shizuku drip as well.

John Puma: 24:19
Oh, nice. Those are always fun. He like does those for special occasions too. Yeah. Cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:25
Yeah. So if you can come out to Brooklyn Kura on Sunday, October 5th from uh, five to 9:00 PM we’d love to see you. It’ll be a great event with, so many types of sake. All our importer and distributor friends will be there.

John Puma: 24:38
Nice. Nice. Sounds good. uh, so yeah, we, we’ve got our next event here. So we’re moving past, past sake day, weekend, and moving into Friday, October the 10th. And this is, Sake-Con, which I love the name sake, Con sake day, NYC 2025. And, um, Tim, tell us all about sake. con.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:02
This is gonna be on Friday, October 10th from five to 10:00 PM Eastern. And this is gonna be at an event space in Manhattan. So if you’re in the city’s and you want to go to, evening time Sake event and you kind of miss all the stuff around the first, uh, this is a great event that will follow up a little bit later. That there are just like many other events, there are some early bird options to get in early. A general admission prices range from.$35 to$45.

John Puma: 25:37
Well that’s interesting. Cool. Um.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:40
So that, uh, if you want to look up the Sake con, sake Day, New York City 2025, that’s on Eventbrite. Or you can also visit sake revolution.com. So John, that is our calendar. I think that Sake Day 2025 is probably the most robust offering of events that I’ve ever seen. What do you think?

John Puma: 26:03
Yeah, I think that, and I think that every year we get a little bit more, which I love. I think it’s great to have, to have options, to have variety, uh, and, and, you know. America’s a damn big place. And so having events all over the country, um, it’s good for people who are just not necessarily just in New York or California. I’m talking to you Denver. I’m talking to you Boston, and I’m talking to you DC I think it’s really awesome that, that we’ve got these things going on outside the big city. so, so where are you gonna be?

Timothy Sullivan: 26:33
Alright, so I’m definitely gonna be at Sake Day San Francisco and it goes without saying that I’m gonna be at the live recording of Sake Revolution on the first. Yes, I’ll be there and then I’m gonna be at Sake Day, Brooklyn Kura on the fifth on that Sunday. And those are the ones I’m guaranteed to be at for sure.

John Puma: 26:58
Cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:59
What about you?

John Puma: 27:00
Well, unfortunately, I’ll definitely not be in San Francisco, but I I will absolutely be at Brooklyn Kura for our live show. And I, I honestly haven’t decided if I’m gonna do part of me wants to go up to Boston. I, I, I haven’t gone to Boston in like 15 years and it seems like it would be a fun thing, um, and. So maybe that, maybe I’ll do the, you know, sake con thing. Maybe I’ll do the Sake Day Brooklyn Kura if I don’t go to Boston.’cause I don’t think I could do both, so, you know, I’ll figure it out. I’m still, for me, my, in my mind is kind of early. I’m gonna try and suss out what I, what I’m feeling and, and how I want to do this. But, you know, I’m excited to get out there and go to some fun places and, and sip sake with folks. I think it’s gonna be a good time.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:45
Yeah, and that’s why I wanted to do this episode a little bit in advance so that we could be like Paul Revere and get the word out there and let all the sake lovers know. Whe when the events are happening, if people do wanna travel, it’s in my book. It’s like totally worth it. Like if you want to go to Boston, it’s a great city to visit for a, a weekend or a long weekend. And if, if sake Day East is your anchor for, for that visit, like, that’s great. That’s a wonderful thing to do for a getaway. And if you see John or myself out at a Sake Day event, please say hello as a listener and you two can get a free sticker.

John Puma: 28:25
So now I have promising stickers. Okay, got it.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:27
too. Yes.

John Puma: 28:29
I’m on it.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:30
All right, so jp, let’s check in with our sakes. We’ve had our Brooklyn Kuras in the glass for a little bit,

John Puma: 28:38
I didn’t finish my glass at all, Tim. That’s right.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:42
so you’re not repouring right now.

John Puma: 28:44
I am totally not repouring right that, that sound was, uh, stirring vigorously. Uh

Timothy Sullivan: 28:51
All right.

John Puma: 28:52
hmm. Now, now I will have to say that my sake, despite having been in a bottle that’s been sitting on my, desk for the past 40 minutes or so. Probably a lot cooler than it usually is because you bought me a wonderful birthday gift.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:06
Happy birthday

John Puma: 29:08
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you got me this, Husky just husky, this husky, bottle cooler. And I just, it’s a metal device that you wrap around your bottle and it keeps it nice and cold, even when you’re doing a long podcast with, with your friend Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:23
Yeah, it’s like a stainless steel insulating sleeve that kind of screws over the bottle and the neck of the bottle sticks out the top and it keeps your sake chilled at the table for up to four hours. And I thought, who better? To have this then my podcast buddy John Puma. So happy birthday.

John Puma: 29:40
having just poured and sipped a little bit more, I’ll tell you it keeps it cool for at least 40 minutes.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:44
Alright, good.

John Puma: 29:47
So far, so good.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:49
40 minutes and counting.

John Puma: 29:50
40 Madison County. How is your NAMA dealing with

Timothy Sullivan: 29:53
Hmm. Well I ha I do not have, that, cooler so my sake in the glass has warmed up just a little bit and. As you would expect the warmer temperature, just a few degrees warmer. It brings out a little more of the nuttiness, and rosiness in this sake, brings out the savory notes, but still totally pleasant, really enjoyable, and just not as, uh, crisp as before, but a little more savory that comes through as the sake gets closer and closer to room temp. And I’m loving it. I, I just think this is a great sake.

John Puma: 30:29
Glad. So Tim, I think it’s time for us to wrap up, let’s tell the good people at home what’s going on.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:38
Yeah. Well. We do hope that all of you listening enjoyed this episode and we do hope you can make it out to support Sake Day wherever you are in the country. I want to thank you all so much for tuning in. We really do hope that you’re enjoying Sake Revolution. Now if you’d like to show your support for our show, uh, the best way to support us is to join our Patreon. You can visit Patreon.com/sakerevolution to learn about different ways to show us your support. I don’t wanna forget to send a special hello and thank you to all our existing patrons. We love to see you all on our monthly happy hour that we do live on Zoom. And if you’d like to join the happy hour and chat with us yourself, uh, join us on Patreon. We’d love to have you.

John Puma: 31:24
And if you would like to check us out over on social media, we Are Sake Revolution or Sake Revolution Pod on just about every platform out there. No TikTok yet. Still after all these years, Tim, we’ve talked about that. It still still hasn’t occurred, but maybe one of these days we’ll get there. And if you want to, uh, reach out to us about mistakes we might’ve made, if we missed a sake event that’s going on for Sake Day, please reach out to us and you can do that at feedback@sakerevolution.com or one of those aforementioned social media outlets. okay, everybody, please make your Sake Day 2025 plans. Remember to keep drinking sake and. Kanpai

Episode 180. In this episode, we again shine a light on the role of Sake Yeast in our series known as the Kobo Chronicles. “Irradiation” and “mutant” are not typical words you’d find in sake marketing, but Tokushima Prefecture makes it work in promoting their “LED YUME” sake yeast. By exposing yeast to blue LED lights, they’ve created new strains of sake yeast for use specifically by Tokushima Prefecture breweries. The brewers at Narutotai have taken this yeast and made a sake that give us sweet flavors – we’re talking jammy notes of pineapple and mango. A noticeably high acidity balances out the sweetness and rounds out the palate. If you’d like to see the major role that a mutant yeast variety can play in a sake, join us and listen in! #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 04:05 LED Yume Yeast
A completely new yeast born from LEDs. “Narutotai LED ” uses “LED Dream Yeast” developed by Tokushima Prefecture. LED lighting, which is now commonplace, spread rapidly around the world after a company in Tokushima Prefecture invented blue light-emitting diodes. Tokushima Prefecture is conducting research into applying this technology to various fields. And so “LED Dream Yeast” was born. It is a rare yeast that is only used in sake breweries in Tokushima Prefecture. By continuously irradiating existing yeast with various types of LED light, a new yeast was developed through mutation. This has made it possible to produce a completely new type of sake .

Sour, sweet and tropical: The LED Yume Yeast 3826 Type 2 used in Naruto Tai LED is called the polyacid type, and is designed to have a very high acidity and a sweet finish. When chilled and served in a wine glass, the sour aroma of yogurt is complemented by a subtle sweet apple aroma, stimulating the appetite. The tropical and juicy flavor is expressed on the label with

Layered colorful motifs: In homage to the invention of the blue light-emitting diode, the blue layer on the label is accented with foil.

---

Skip to: 15:31 Sake Tasting: Narutotai LED Junmai Ginjo

Narutotai LED Junmai Ginjo

Acidity: 2.5
Alcohol: 15.0%
Brand: Narutotai (鳴門鯛)
Brewery: Honke Matsuura Shuzo (本家松浦酒造)
Classification: Junmai Ginjo
Importer/Distributor: Prestige
Prefecture: Tokushima
Rice Type: Awa Ichiba Yamadanishiki
Sake Name English: LED
Seimaibuai: 58%
SMV: -20.0
Yeast: LED YUME Yeast

---

Skip to: 27:38 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s First Sake podcast and I am your host, John Puma. I’m from the Sake Notes. I’m also the administrator over at the Internet Sake Discord and the lead mod at Reddits r slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:39
And I’m your host, Timothy. Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website and every week John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand. Hello John. How are you?

John Puma: 0:57
Oh, you beat me too. You, you were quick on the draw there, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:01
Yes.

John Puma: 1:01
I, I appreciate that. Uh, I’m doing, I’m doing rather well. I’m doing pretty, pretty well. Uh, how are you doing

Timothy Sullivan: 1:09
I am doing good. I have been working hard teaching sake classes, and it’s been a lot of fun living the dream, as they say.

John Puma: 1:20
Nice. Nice. I wanna just get in there really fast and say that, my Sake Revolution resolutions, they’re coming along well, one of’em is coming along. I haven’t done anything with a cert with certificate yet. I haven’t signed up for any classes yet, but. But I have been taking photos of the new bottles of sake that I open. And it’s been number one, it’s been really fun to do. Like I’ve really been enjoying that. it’s fun to have a record of the things that you’ve been tasting. Um, and that’s, you know, I know a lot of people will do like photos. They’ll take notes on top of that. Uh, I haven’t been doing notes, but I have been doing photos, which reminds me of like what I’ve been, what I’ve been doing. So this, this, this exercise has been kind of fun and, and really, um, a good time so far. I do need to do the other bit, you know, I’m way behind on that, but, you know, we’ll get there, you know.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:17
Well, JP, I can totally vouch for you because I am signed up as a subscriber to your Google Photo album. So every time you post your photos of what you’ve been drinking, I get a little alert and I’ve been checking up on you, and you’re doing a good job.

John Puma: 2:34
You know, I think it’s important that I, I think it’s important that I, I. Have things in place to keep me honest. And so yeah, people are allowed to, to, to subscribe to the album and they’ll see what I have been drinking. I believe that’s in the show notes from that episode we did on the Sake Revolution resolutions. Maybe, maybe not. But it’s been a lot of fun and, and you Oh, well. Maybe we can put in these shows notes and you too can be notified every time I open up a new bottle of sake. Please note it’s not, that’s not what’s happening because there’s a lot of times, like I’ve been realizing I didn’t post four or five pictures from like a, a like a week, and then I’ll just post’em all at once on like a Tuesday afternoon. That’s not what’s going on on my Tuesday afternoon. Just FYI, no, I figured you knew that.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:22
my favorite part, my favorite part of checking out the album is always looking in the background to see where you’re drinking. Like, I’m like, is that asoko? Is that his house? Is, is that accidental? Like, where is he? Where? Where in the world is John Puma?

John Puma: 3:38
More often than not, it’s my house,

Timothy Sullivan: 3:40
Yeah.

John Puma: 3:41
but yeah. But it’s been, it’s been pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, but that’s, that’s not why we’re here today, Tim. We’re not here to talk about me taking pictures of bottles of sake. Um,

Timothy Sullivan: 3:52
although it, it is nice to get an update on your resolution,

John Puma: 3:55
yeah, you know, I think it’s important, uh, we are here to actually talk about, uh, about sake. How about that? We’re gonna taste and talk about sake. What are we tasting and talking about today, Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 4:05
Well, we’re going to dip our toe back into the world of what I’ve been calling the Kobo Chronicles. Kobo. Kobo is the Japanese word for yeast. And maybe we should just do a quick review of what yeast is and what role it plays in sake. And, uh, so it’s called kobo in Japanese and. I often define yeast as the engine of alcoholic fermentation. So it’s the microorganism that eats sugar and gives off alcohol and CO2 as a byproduct. And, uh, that is the role of yeast. And in my mind’s eye, I always picture it like a little pacman. Waka Waka Waka Waka chomping its way.

John Puma: 4:55
and it’s important to note that like, for, everybody at home, the use of yeast here is not unique to sake. This is, as you pointed out, something is an all alcoholic beverages. It’s like alcohol doesn’t happen without yeast. Is that more or less correct.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:08
That’s right.

John Puma: 5:09
Yeah. And here we

Timothy Sullivan: 5:10
So there, yeah, we’ve talked about yeast many times on the podcast. It’s always good to review the basics and, the Kobo Chronicles is all about examining different varieties or maybe unusual varieties of yeast and how they can, how they can, uh. contribute to flavors, aromas, and that kind of thing. So we, we both got our hands on a sake that has a very unique yeast, and we’re going to talk about that and taste that sake today.

John Puma: 5:41
Yeah, I’m excited. And I think that, I think that in the sake world, or at least where it comes to, like people talking about sake and like what you see on the label, in a lot of cases, a lot of attention is given to rice, right? What kind of rice is in this? What kind of rice? And, and very rarely, not never, but very rarely do we get. Talk of what kind of yeast is in this. And so the idea that, that the focus here on the series and this bottle is on the yeast, is really cool and I’m excited to, to dive into it with you.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:18
Yeah, you’re definitely right. Yeast is very often like in the background and not the star when it comes to, usually we talk about the rice, as you said, or sometimes even the water Before. We’ll talk about the yeast variety.

John Puma: 6:32
Yeah. Okay. Even though you’re absolutely right about that. But not today. Today it’s all about that yeast.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:39
Yes.

John Puma: 6:39
and and what is that yeast, Tim, what is that Yeast.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:41
well, today’s yeast. Today’s yeast is a mutant.

John Puma: 6:47
Mutant. Oh my goodness.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:50
Yes

John Puma: 6:51
does Stan Lee know about this?

Timothy Sullivan: 6:55
so. This is, and we’re gonna talk about how to pronounce this, but it is known as, uh, LED or lead, so it’s the letters. L-E-D-L-E-D-L-E-D, or lead. What do you, what do you think it is? I, I said LED.

John Puma: 7:17
Well, normally I would be inclined to say lead’cause I think LED I’m thinking of, you know, light emitting diodes. But I don’t know a lot about this yeast yet. I’m trying to go into this with an open mind. no contamination.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:32
Right. Well, we’re, I will give you a major, major hint. The mutant nature of this yeast is connected to lights.

John Puma: 7:43
Ooh. Now I’m leaning LED. That’s

Timothy Sullivan: 7:46
Yes. Let’s, let’s go with LED. So. The sake that we’re tasting today is Narutotai, LED sake.

John Puma: 7:57
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:58
It’s uh, out of Tokushima Prefecture. And, this is a sake that is basically marketed and it’s main attraction is really the yeast that they use, this mutant yeast. And maybe we can talk a little bit about how it was created.

John Puma: 8:17
Yeah. Yeah, it’s very interesting. And so this is, these are the guys that are known for the, for the can. Is this, is this not the case?

Timothy Sullivan: 8:26
Yes. Now we’ve featured, i’ve infamously called it the oil Can.

John Puma: 8:32
Yes you have.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:34
And, uh, to the, to the president’s face President of the company.

John Puma: 8:37
Uh, and what was his reaction to that?

Timothy Sullivan: 8:40
uh, I think nonplus is

John Puma: 8:43
Oh, okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:44
the word.

John Puma: 8:47
That’s not the reaction you want.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:49
yeah. So, Myshell is a big fan of this brand. Is she not?

John Puma: 8:53
Oh, she’s a huge fan of this brand. The biggest,

Timothy Sullivan: 8:58
Yeah, so the classic Narutotai is Which one?

John Puma: 9:02
It’s that It’s at Shiboritate Ginjo Nama Gensh u, if I’m not mistaken.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:09
Yeah. Genshu?

John Puma: 9:10
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:11
And it’s in that really cool aluminum can,

John Puma: 9:15
Right. Just don’t call it oil can apparently.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:17
Call it an oil can. To the President’s face, it’s something they’re really, really known for and this is a different product from their lineup

John Puma: 9:27
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:28
and they’re calling it the LED sake. And I have a little information for you about how this yeast was created. Uh, it was made in Tokushima. So this is a yeast that is only used in Tokushima prefecture.

John Puma: 9:45
All right.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:47
And it was based off the work from the Tokushima Prefectural Industrial Technology Center, and they did work with, researching Irradiating yeast with UV LEDs, and what this does is it creates mutant strains of the yeast when they zap it with the LED light. And I also read that it’s the blue wavelength in particular

John Puma: 10:16
Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:17
They’re applying to this yeast, and then when the yeast is reproducing, it changes its DNAA little bit and they get different, different strains of the yeast, and they found one that they thought was particularly good for making sake.

John Puma: 10:35
Very interesting. I like that. So they took the, they existing yeast and they like bombarded it just to kind of see what it would, not just to see what it would do, but, to see what effect it had. And I imagine they did a lot of these experiments and and this was one that, gave positive result.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:50
Yes. And I mean things like, things like mutant and irradiate are not the words we traditionally use in marketing sake, right?

John Puma: 11:00
It’s a first for me,

Timothy Sullivan: 11:03
it’s gonna be really interesting to taste this. Have you had this before?

John Puma: 11:08
I actually have. I had this in Tokushima last year as a matter of fact. I happened to be in Tokushima. And number one, tokushima is a wonderful Prefecture. The city is absolutely delightful to, um, to walk around in. The food is wonderful. The people are friendly. People don’t know about Tokushima, but don’t they, people don’t go to Tokushima. They should. It’s wonderful.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:28
You visited this prefecture and I’ve never been there, so you’re one up on me.

John Puma: 11:35
Aha.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:36
You scooped me, Puma.

John Puma: 11:39
If only I went to the brewery while I was there, then I would really scoop you.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:44
so the name of this yeast is LED, Yume Kobo, which means dream yeast. So that’s dream yeast.’cause I guess it produces a dreamy sake. I don’t know. I.

John Puma: 12:00
I hope it does. I’m look, I’m excited to find out.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:03
Now should I, should, should I read a, tasting note to, tell us what the promise of the flavor is before we open?

John Puma: 12:10
Sure. Let’s find out what the, what the marketing says now.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:16
Alright, so let’s see. Okay, so it says, the various lights of the LED irradiate, the existing yeast and develop new yeast through mutations. This allows us to produce a completely new type of sake, sour, sweet, and tropical.

John Puma: 12:35
Ooh.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:36
Uh, it’s designed to have a very high acidity and a sweet finish. Drink the sake chilled in a wine glass, and you’ll get a sour aroma like yogurt. Slightly sweet aroma like apple, which will Whet your appetite.

John Puma: 12:52
Oh

Timothy Sullivan: 12:53
Alright? Yes.

John Puma: 12:55
Wonderful. That, that sounds great. Yeah, I kind of want to, wanna give that a shot. Now this is, that’s very

Timothy Sullivan: 13:00
Yeah. Yeah. Before we open, let’s talk about this label too.

John Puma: 13:06
Yeah. for us in, in the West, we primarily experienced the eye through their flagship can product that Shiboritate Ginjo Genshu, And that is, oh, a squat. White can with some Kanji on it. Not a lot else going on. This on the other hand, is a very elegant looking bottle. It’s one of those, um, longer neck, you know, kind of fatter bottom bottles that I’ve been seeing a little bit more of these days. Does it, Tim, is there a name for this?

Timothy Sullivan: 13:42
Did you just say this bottle has a fat bottom?

John Puma: 13:45
It does. I

Timothy Sullivan: 13:48
covering the ears of my bottle. When you said that, I think that this is one of

John Puma: 13:55
calling it as I see it, Tim. I don’t know.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:59
The bottle shape that I know doesn’t have a specific name, but it is wider on the bottom and not the, the, the higher neck. I didn’t say it had a fat bottom. I said it’s wider on the bottom, but it has a longer narrow neck swan like neck. Very beautiful. I.

John Puma: 14:15
Yes. That’s very nice. And then the label is very colorful. it’s very colorful. It’s, and contrasting with the kanji filled label of the, of their f. Mainline product. There’s none on the front of this one. It’s just a bunch of colors and patterns and even, even a bit of a different texture. Some foil on here. It looks very lovely. Did they ever say, in any, anything that you’ve read, what they were trying to represent with this

Timothy Sullivan: 14:43
Well, I am putting two and two together looking at this. And the, the information I read about the LED light, remember I said they used the blue wavelength in particular? And the blue on this design is the one that gets the foil. So the blue is the blue. A line on the label is like sparkling and glowing with the foil treatment. I think these are all the different wavelengths of light. I think that’s what this rec represents in a very abstract way. But the blue one gets the special treatment and on the side it says LED in the foil as

John Puma: 15:24
In the blue foil.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:25
Yeah. I think that refers to the blue wavelength.

John Puma: 15:28
That stands to reason. I like it,

Timothy Sullivan: 15:30
Yeah.

John Puma: 15:31
but very, yeah, very colorful, very striking, bottle here. And, uh, yeah, if you don’t mind, I’m gonna. I give everybody at home a quick rundown of the stats for this sake. as, Tim pointed out, this is the Naruto. LED sake. It is a Junmai Ginjo from, Honke Matsuura, which is of course in Tokushima, which is, uh, on Shikoku, uh, island. And the A BV here is 15%, the acidity is 2.5, which sounds high to me. That’s, that’s up there, right? That’s very high. We, we’ve got, AWA Ichiba Yamadanishiki Rice from Tokushima. Now Tim, we know what Yamada Nishiki Rice is. We know what Tokushima is. Uh, what is Awa Ichiba?

Timothy Sullivan: 16:25
Awa Ichiba refers to the location, so this is, uh, Tokushima grown Yamadanishiki.

John Puma: 16:31
Ah, very nice. Very nice. Well, they take that Awa Ichiba Yamada Nishiki from Tokushima, and they Mill it down to 58% of its original size. Uh, and then here’s, uh, here’s where things get a little extreme. The sake meter value is minus 20. If you’re wondering how they were gonna deal with that 2.5 acidity. I think we know where they’re going. I think that they’re gonna try and meet somewhere in the middle with this very, very low SMV and that very high acidity. What do you think, Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 17:01
Yep,

John Puma: 17:02
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:02
that sounds right. And of course the yeast is our LED Dream sake yeast.

John Puma: 17:08
Yes. Well, I didn’t think I needed to mention that,

Timothy Sullivan: 17:10
Well, I.

John Puma: 17:12
but I appreciate you being thorough.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:15
I, I’m very, very thorough. Someone might start listening in the middle, you know,

John Puma: 17:21
Uh, if you listen, if you just started the show, please go back to the beginning of the show. You don’t have to go to the beginning of like episode one of Sake Revolution, but for this particular episode, just do me a solid and go back to the beginning. We put a lot of work into that. All right, so let’s, Tim, let’s open

Timothy Sullivan: 17:38
so we got the stats. Yes, we got it. Let’s open it.

John Puma: 17:43
Please do. All right, so we’ve got it in the glass.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:48
Yep, I’ve got the, uh, Narutotai, LED sake, in the glass. Let’s give it a smell.

John Puma: 17:55
Yeah. Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:00
It smells fruity to me. I.

John Puma: 18:02
Tropical, it may just be that they imprinted that word for me there, but, Hmm. Yeah. Very for me. Very tropical on the nose.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:16
Yep. It smells, smells a little like, um, jammy and mango. Not too much melon this time. I mean, you and I love to talk about melon, but it’s not as melon. Yeah. I.

John Puma: 18:29
Yeah. It’s not, it’s not very Melony at all. It is as, yeah. Much more of that mango maybe. Maybe a little, oh, maybe a little pineapple. Hmm. Yeah. Are you ready to

Timothy Sullivan: 18:40
give it a taste. I am. Hmm.

John Puma: 18:46
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:47
Oh, it’s interesting.

John Puma: 18:49
That is a blast of, of fruit.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:52
Yeah.

John Puma: 18:54
Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan: 18:55
It almost tastes like a starburst.

John Puma: 18:57
it’s, it’s, this is not subtle in the least.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:02
it’s very rich and juicy and sweet, but the acidity comes on the finish for me, like it’s bright and acidic on the finish.

John Puma: 19:11
Yeah, it is. bear with me for a moment. The. The OG Narutotai that, that Genshu is well known for just being like a big intense like blast of, nama Assult and this is like, it’s got that pow to it, but this is fruit and sweet and sour. it’s a very different style, but the. The core energy that that this brand brings, that’s take no prisoners. Here’s the flavor. Appears to be present.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:43
Yeah, it’s not shy. Neither of their sakes are shy. Yeah.

John Puma: 19:48
Yeah. They’re just going big or going home and they’re, they’re going big here.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:52
I think one of the biggest differences between the classic Narutotai that we featured before, and this one is that the alcohol percentage is different. The Narutotai in the can, the Nama Genshu is just so bombastic and high alcohol. This is juicy, sweet high acid, but the alcohol’s only at 15%, so it doesn’t bowl me over in that same way. Let me know if you think this is a fair statement, but I think that if you are a lover of Juicy White Wines, that you would really like this. What do you think?

John Puma: 20:31
Yeah. It does have that high acidity white, yeah, white wine’s like a Riesling, it’s like pow, like, you know, or a, like a Muscat, like almost kind of thing. it, is it just big and vibrant? It’s a lot of fun to drink.. I don’t think it’s something you can just, like absently, keep sipping.’cause it is so intense. you know, you’re, you’re gonna get a little bit of like maybe palate fatigue for a bit. It’s, it’s just, that’s a lot. It’s ti it’s almost tiring. This is not an nama, but it does. Um, and in some ways feel like one, it’s’cause it’s so vibrant. Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:02
Well, the thing that is really exciting for me about this sake is that it does push the envelope. You know, we don’t want sakes to always be the same or never innovate, and it sounds like with this mutant yeast, they were able to, innovate in a way and make the sake more expressive. And it is. In. In my opinion, it’s leaning more towards a wine like sake, and I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I think that will attract a lot of wine lovers to sake.

John Puma: 21:33
Yeah, it could. It definitely could. And. You know, as somebody who enjoys the wine from time to time. Yeah. This is definitely really nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:42
Yeah. Now we have to ask ourselves, I. What we would pair with this, because it’s a very unique sake.

John Puma: 21:50
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:51
It’s got the sweetness going on, it’s got the high acidity, um, it’s got that, uh, kind of muted tropical fruit.

John Puma: 22:02
Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:02
And I do have some pairing recommendations from the distributor.

John Puma: 22:10
Mm.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:11
So should I read those and we can react to them? Do a live

John Puma: 22:15
Yeah, I, I think that’ll be fun. Let’s go for that.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:18
Okay. So the first one is cheese risotto. Cheese risotto

John Puma: 22:25
I cannot opine.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:29
because of the cheese.

John Puma: 22:30
Because of the cheese. But

Timothy Sullivan: 22:32
For new listeners, for new listeners.

John Puma: 22:35
John does not

Timothy Sullivan: 22:35
John Puma does not eat cheese. That was a, that was a misfire on my

John Puma: 22:40
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. It’s fine. Tim, what about you?

Timothy Sullivan: 22:44
I think it would be great.

John Puma: 22:45
Okay. So that that one works

Timothy Sullivan: 22:47
risotto. Risotto is, is often cooked with cheese and white wine and I think that it gives that a little bit of acidity to cheese Risotto. Cheese risotto is irresistible in my book, so, I think that’s wonderful. They also say. Caesar salad.

John Puma: 23:05
okay. I’m here for that. And I think that this would go really well with that. Uh, okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:12
They said fruit. Fruit platter.

John Puma: 23:14
Sure.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:15
Yeah. I don’t sit around with a fruit platter all

John Puma: 23:18
No. Yeah. me either. And so I’m like, yeah, I guess that would work. Sure.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:26
And also in the dessert section they also say cheesecake with blueberry sauce.

John Puma: 23:32
That’s very specific.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:35
I’m not a big fan. Scott will tell you, I’m not a big fan of blueberry in general, but just plain cheesecake. I could see this. It has the sweetness to put a foot, put a foot into dessert territory, but I don’t think you need to like, this isn’t so sweet that I feel like it’s a dessert sake. What do you think?

John Puma: 23:55
I don’t, no, I don’t think it’s there. I think that the Caesar salad kind of made my eyes light up a little bit. That sounded nice. I have also found the recommendations, uh, at least, uh, I think these are from the importer as well. I see also roast beef here. That’s an interesting idea. That’s like a, a, a, you know, a heavier flavor. And I think that the high acidity on this would, would perhaps, be tamed a little bit by it. I think. I think that’s a fun way to have it. I’d be interesting.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:23
Yeah, well, let’s come up with our own food pairing recommendations too. This is, it’s not easy, but this is a muscle that we have to exercise. Like we have to envision our food pairing options. And the more you do it, the easier it gets to kind of envision what you would have with this. So I really like the idea of a salad for sure. Caesar salad sounds great. Raspberry vinegarette would be great. I often go to that with sake, and I think this would pair really well with, pardon me, John, but a, a cheese, cheese plate. This is a sake I would feature in my cheese pairing class for

John Puma: 25:03
I was, I was just about to ask you that.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:05
Yeah.

John Puma: 25:07
Um, great. And I also, so, um, do you think that something with Lemon would clash with this?

Timothy Sullivan: 25:14
Hmm. I think the, the acidity from a lemon based vinegarette or a lemon dressing would be great. And that makes me also think of something like a lemon chicken, you know? Um, I love lemon chicken and I think that would go great with this. Okay. So we won’t go hungry. And there’s lots, there’s lots to pair with this sake.

John Puma: 25:36
Yes, I, I agree.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:39
And you know, when you see those numbers on the stats, like acidity 2.5, SMV minus 20, it’s like, oh my God, what am I gonna do with this thing? It’s out of bounds in a lot of ways but tasting it, it’s like, oh, this is not that crazy. After all, this is not a funky sake for our funky sake series, I

John Puma: 25:58
it is not. No, no. It is definitely not funky. Uh, and we mean that we don’t mean that as an insult. Um, yeah, no, this is not a funky sake. It is a really well balanced sake. The numbers may make you think, oh my God, this is going to be absolutely insane. But because you, you have a high number on either side, it’s, meeting in the middle in a way. And it’s really nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:24
Yeah, it’s the alcohol acidity and, sweetness, all balance each other out. And, uh, it definitely leans more on the sweet side. I think if you buy the sake, you should know it’s gonna be on the sweeter side, but it’s not overpowering, it’s not out of balance and super unique. And I think it’s great that we can, uh, have new yeast varieties like this. This LED. Dream yeast or LED you may, and, have it produce these interesting, flavors I think is great. And, I’m excited to see. I know that a few other brewers in Tokushima are gonna be using this yeast as well, so maybe we can get our hands on another LED sake that uses this yeast and do a taste comparison. That would be fun for a future episode.

John Puma: 27:14
That would be a lot of fun. And is, there’s one last thing I want to, to, to talk about here with this and that is, to me at least, and feel free, I definitely want to get your, feedback. But I think that this is a sake, we want to definitely serve more on the colder side of things. Uh, it does not feel like something that we wanna warm up too much and it doesn’t feel like something that’s gonna love being. Uh, love being all that room temperature, either, uh, I don’t know what your thoughts are.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:41
It doesn’t matter what my thoughts are, John. The back label says, serve chilled. Only the brewery is telling us Serve chilled only. I.

John Puma: 27:53
the power of the brewery compels us. Well then I’m glad I, uh, brought that up.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:01
Yeah, so the brewery recommends 51 degrees Fahrenheit. If you go into their, deeper notes online, they say that 51 Fahrenheit is the magic temperature, which is quite, quite cold for sake. And so they want this well chilled, and I think that helps hold the integrity of the sake together. Like maybe when it gets towards room temperature, it becomes a little more flabby. But, uh, I think. Um, when it’s chilled, it kind of keeps it a little crisper on the finish. And, uh, I, I would agree with that. So I think chilled is the way to go.

John Puma: 28:35
Hmm. Alright, well, Tim, this has been a lot of fun. We had a, a nice new, exciting sake and I, I like the series too, like that. We’re putting a spotlight on Kobo. Um,

Timothy Sullivan: 28:46
Who knew that a irradiation and mutation could be so much fun?

John Puma: 28:51
be X-Men anyway.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:57
well, well, John, it was so much fun to taste with you. Thanks for sharing this sake with me. And, um, I wanna thank our listeners as well for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed our show. Now, if you are one of our. Patreon supporters, we want to send you a special hi. Hello, and thank you for supporting us. If any listeners out there are not in our Patreon community and you’d like to join, visit patreon.com/sake revolution. And join us. We have a monthly live happy hour the first Wednesday of every month, and you can talk to us live in person on Zoom, and we’d love to see you there. So join us on Patreon.

John Puma: 29:37
And, when you have a chance, if you’d like other ways to support our show, please mention us to people, you know, mention us to your friends. Also, I. Give us a little shout on your podcast platform of choice, a little review, whatever amount of stars you think is appropriate. goes a long way towards getting our podcast to the top of the, relevant charts. When people search for Sake podcast, we want them to find Sake Revolution, and this will help out. So on that note, Tim, raise your glass. Remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai.

Episode 179. This week, John and Timothy explore another brand profile: Hououbiden from Kobayashi Shuzo in Tochigi Prefecture. How does a brewery go from the edge of bankruptcy to become a coveted cult sake? To quote Huey Lewis, that’s the power of love! This brewery is managed by the rare combination of a husband who is the brewery president and a wife who is the Master Brewer/Toji. The sake they make is etherial and elegant. Today’s tasting – the Hououbiden “Asahi Mai” Junmai Daiginjo – left Timothy speechless… and John was thrilled – with the sake! Join us as we explore the flavors and compelling story of Hououbiden together! #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Hosts Welcome and Introduction
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 02:27 Branded: Hououbiden

From Sake Suki:
Houou Biden was established in 1872 in Nikko, Tochigi, where spectacular nature and historical monuments, including world heritage shrines, traditional cuisine, crafts, and lush natural settings, have been preserved since the Edo period.

The brewery underwent a renaissance in 1995 when the 5th-generation, Mr. Masaki Kobayashi, returned to lead the family business alongside his wife, Mayumi, who serves as Houou Biden’s Toji, one of Japan’s rare female master brewers.

Find Hououbiden on Social Media
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hououbiden/
Website: https://hououbiden.jp/en/
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@hououbiden
UrbanSake: https://www.urbansake.com/sake-guide/kobayashi-shuzo-tochigi/

---

---

Skip to: 9:01 Sake Introduction and Tasting: Hououbiden “Asahi Mai” Junmai Daiginjo

Hououbiden “Asahi Mai” Junmai Daiginjo

Brewery: Kobayashi Shuzo
Alcohol: 16.0%
Classification: Junmai Daiginjo
Seimaibuai: 50%
Prefecture: Tochigi
Rice Type: Asahi Mai
Brand: Hououbiden (鳳凰美田)
Importer/Distributor: Sake Suki
Yeast: Proprietary House Yeast

---

Skip to: 28:43 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast. I am your host, John. Puma from the Sake Notes. I’m also the guy who made the Internet Sake Discord, as well as the lead mod over at Reddits r slash sake community. I.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:41
And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 1:01
Well, hello Tim. How are you doing this week?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:05
I’m doing great. How about yourself, jp?

John Puma: 1:07
Mm, no complaints. No complaints at all. Just, uh, you know, living the dream. You know, another day, another sake podcast, another day, another Sake podcast. And, the one thing I’m, I’m really happy about today,’We’re doing a branded episode, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:26
Yes, we are diving into a brand, kind of telling the story of the brand and I’m very excited for these episodes. They’re always a lot of fun. I.

John Puma: 1:38
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:39
I always say that sake is, I always say that sake is more than just liquid in a bottle. It’s all about the people who make it, you know?

John Puma: 1:46
yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:47
these episodes allow us to explore that a little bit.

John Puma: 1:51
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, we typically do these branded episodes when a, uh, when a new sake that’s got, that’s kind of got some hype behind it, shows up on our shores. And, uh, as time goes on, it’s, it’s harder to get those because it, a lot more sake makes it to, makes it to the United States, which is wonderful. Uh, but. Here’s one that, that did catch on really nicely. Got got a lot of momentum behind it in Japan, and now it is finally here. And Tim, you want to tell the good people at home what brand we’re talking about?

Timothy Sullivan: 2:27
Yes, we are gonna be tasting a Junmai Daiginjo from Hououbiden, and that’s made by Kobayashi Shuzo, and they’re located in Tochigi Prefecture. I. So Hououbiden is a well-known brand and I think it kind of has a reputation for being a little bit hard to get and a very luxurious style, and they really value local rice production in their sake as well.

John Puma: 3:00
Yeah, uh, I had, I, I had heard all of those things actually. Um, and it’s really nice that you know when you have a sake, that is hard to find in Japan. It is often. Trickier to find here when they do bring it over. So we’re very fortunate that we were able to get our hands on a bottle. Uh, and in full disclosure, this was actually, gifted to us for the show by the importer. Thank you very much to the folks over at, uh, Sake Suki for, and we has this bottle of Hououbiden.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:36
I think the brand story is amazing. The brewery was founded in 1872, and it’s been in the Kobayashi family. I. Since then and the most recent, uh, president to take over has been Masaki Kobayashi, and he’s the fifth generation of the family to run this brewery

John Puma: 4:01
All right.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:03
Now. one thing that is really interesting is that he came back in like 1995 to take over as president. And from what I’ve read online, Kobayashi Shuzo was on the verge of bankruptcy.

John Puma: 4:20
Uh, oh.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:21
They were not in a good way. They were not in a good way.

John Puma: 4:24
That, that’s a story we hear, uh, occasionally where, The previous generation, uh, they’re having a rough time, and then the next gen comes in and, and they, they’re, they’re taking the reins in, in a really perilous position. Uh, so what, so what happened next to get us to where we’re at now?

Timothy Sullivan: 4:42
Yeah. Well this story has a very interesting twist.

John Puma: 4:46
Ooh. I like twist endings.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:48
Yes. And it involves a love story as well. So, uh, Mr. Kobayashi actually met his. Future wife and she happens to be involved in the sake brewing business as well. She was an instructor at the Iwate Prefectural Brewers Institute, which is the, Technical Institute connected to the Nanbu Toji. So the Nanbu Toji is the largest Toji group in Japan, and it’s connected to Iwate. So, he met Mayumi, they fell in love, and they got married. So not only was Mr. Kobayashi running a brewery, but. The life partner he ended up with also was an instructor and had amazing skills in making sake. So what happened next was that he, you know, Mr. Kobayashi took over the brewery in 1995, and there was already a Toji there. The husband was a new president and the wife was a brewing instructor from the Iwate. Brewers Institute, but they had so much respect for the existing Toji that the wife didn’t take on any role at the brewery immediately. But after five years, they decided that, she should become the Toji. So she stepped in as Toji and that’s when things at the brewery shifted dramatically and. The style of their sake became more modern. So she brought in modern brewing techniques and she brought in new ways of approaching brewing Hououbiden, and that was a huge shift. And after that, the sake became much more sought after and started winning awards and became like more of a cult sake after. The husband and wife team started working together to make the sake.

John Puma: 6:57
Nice. That’s awesome. I, I, it’s, I love these stories of, of these breweries that, you know, they’re, they’re on the ropes and then they make a change. And they’re able to just, Make this like wonderful comeback story and uh, and now they’ve got this like really Sought after sake that’s being exported to the U.S. that’s great.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:16
Yeah. And in 2022 they actually built a new facility to, Make the modern production methods that they’re using. So they still have the old, their main brewery where traditional sake Brewing is carried out. But in 2022, they built the Hishogura, which is their modern brewing facility. And I think out of that facility, a lot of their award-winning sakes have come and uh, it’s been. A real turnaround story to go from the verge of bankruptcy in 1995 to winning gold medals and being a sought after cult sake. these years later,

John Puma: 7:57
Yeah. That’s awesome. That’s fantastic. good for them. I’m so glad to hear that.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:02
I I just wanted to mention one last thing. I mean, there are not a lot of female. Tojis or master brewers in Japan. So Mayumi Mayumi is contributing greatly to the success of this brand. And I think it has to be acknowledged that this is a rare situation where it’s a husband and wife team, the husband is the president, the wife is the master brewer, and that’s just not something you see every day.

John Puma: 8:30
No, it’s a, it’s a feel good idea. You know, it’s a feel good story.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:34
but what do you talk about at the dinner table? It’s like, the, the Moromi temperature was this, that, blah, blah, blah. Well, this brand is very sought after and we were super lucky to receive the sake as a sample to taste. On today’s podcast. I’m thrilled to be featuring this. I’ve never had this particular one before, so we’re both gonna be reacting and, uh, the sake that we have from Hououbiden is the Asahi Mai. It’s a Junmai Daiginjo. G And John, do you, do you wanna give us the stats for this sake?

John Puma: 9:11
Sure. Now, if, if at home you heard, uh, Asahi Mai and thought, Mai, that sounds like rice. Uh, you are absolutely correct. This is in addition to the name of the sake. It’s actually the name of the rice that’s used here. So I’m gonna jump right into that and we’ll, we’ll backtrack a tiny bit. This is using, uh. Asahi Mai from Okayama, apparently Asahi Mai Very, very difficult to cultivate, not easy to get along with, is this rice. So, uh, they’re putting in a lot of work, a lot of effort to bring this, uh, to bring this to us. As Tim mentioned, this is from, uh, Kobayashi Shuzo over in Tochigi Prefecture. Lots of good sake coming out Tochigi these days, I

Timothy Sullivan: 9:56
Oh yeah.

John Puma: 9:57
Yeah, that Asahi Mai is milled down to 50% of its original size. The yeast is listed as house yeast, so I’m assuming that that is something proprietary to them or do you think they’re doing something ambient? Probably proprietary right.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:10
Proprietary.

John Puma: 10:11
Yeah. that’s, that’s my thought. Uh, I don’t think, I don’t think the, the flavor profile is, uh, matched up with a ambient yeast for this one. Unfortunately we don’t have sake meter value for this. Ones it’s a little under wraps, much like the yeast and, but we do know that the A BV is 16%’cause that’s the law. They have to tell us that.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:32
All right, so the, the only thing I have to add is that this, this sake rice called Asahi Mai, the only other thing I know about it. It is that it is a non crossbred heirloom variety. like omachi, like omachi been crossbred and is like an original heirloom strain. Uh, I’ve read that Asahi Mai Asahi Rice is a. Also a non crossbred heirloom strain. And I think that is one of the reasons it’s so difficult to cultivate and to grow, it hasn’t been crossbred to facilitate. Different, um, things to make it easier to work with as a farmer. So this is an original heirloom strain and uh, that’s one thing I read about this particular sake, and I think that’s why they want to feature the rice so prominently in the branding. I.

John Puma: 11:25
Right. Yeah. It’s very important to note that, when people are cross-breeding and trying to make new types of rice, it’s not just for flavor. It’s not just to try and, change how the sake tastes necessarily. It’s also very important for making it easier to cultivate because you get larger. If you get larger yields, you’re able to make more sake at a lower price. Uh, this is, you know, when you’re using the original stuff, it becomes a little bit more difficult and more expensive. Okay. So Tim, let’s take a look at this label real fast. so this is, it is dark. This is a, this is a, like a, a very dark bottle, almost a black bottle. And the label is, is black and the lettering is dark gray. It is. Um, it is. They, they’re going for like a mood, right.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:09
John. I think the kids call it a vibe.

John Puma: 12:11
It’s a vibe. Oh,

Timothy Sullivan: 12:12
It’s a vibe.

John Puma: 12:13
Sorry kids. I screwed it up. The Hououbiden Kanji though is, uh, isn’t like silver, which is very nice. It’s a shiny,

Timothy Sullivan: 12:23
Yeah.

John Puma: 12:24
cool. I think this, this label might be, I. For the Western market. It’s like a, a one piece wraparound label. It might be a Western market label. but I am excited to get this in the glass.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:36
And there’s also, there’s also a phoenix on the label.

John Puma: 12:40
Oh yeah. Is that what that

Timothy Sullivan: 12:41
there’s a bird. So the phoenix is the, of course, the symbol of rebirth. And um, I think they use that phoenix icon or iconography in all of their branding. So it must be tied to their brand, um, which is very cool. Yeah.

John Puma: 12:58
Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan: 12:59
All right. Should we get this open and in the glass?

John Puma: 13:02
we absolutely should.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:03
Alright. All right, I’ve got it in the glass. Let’s give this a smell as we usually do. Hmm.

John Puma: 13:18
Ooh.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:20
Very subtle,

John Puma: 13:22
Very.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:22
elegant. This is not showy, is it?

John Puma: 13:29
No. No, it’s not. It’s nice though. It’s got that. Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:35
It’s lovely.

John Puma: 13:36
I’m having a really hard time identifying

Timothy Sullivan: 13:39
Hmm.

John Puma: 13:40
this. What do you think? What do you get outta this?

Timothy Sullivan: 13:45
Well, I think the aromatics are very subtle, very clean. Uh, there’s a hint of something that could be a whisper of fruitiness, but there’s almost like an incense quality to it.

John Puma: 14:04
Yeah, I was gonna say like annise or something like that.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:07
Hmm,

John Puma: 14:08
I was worried I’d be misusing the word anise. Something almost, almost minty on the nose. I don’t know what it is. But when you said, um, when you said incense, that I think that that’s, that might be what I was detecting.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:23
Yeah. And I don’t mean like, you know, hardcore Catholic church incense. I’m talking like wafting wafting Japanese incense from the tea house next door house next door.

John Puma: 14:38
Alright.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:38
Hmm. Yeah. It’s got something very pleasant, but light and, uh, it, it’s a very gentle aroma.

John Puma: 14:48
Extremely. Alright. Are you ready for a sip?

Timothy Sullivan: 14:51
let’s taste. Hmm. So good.

John Puma: 14:58
That’s nice. There’s a, the, there’s a wonderful little like bite of acidity on the finish there that I am a big fan of.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:10
I think for me, bite is too strong a

John Puma: 15:12
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:13
This is very silky and it has like a velvety texture. It’s soft. And again, it, it’s not. In any way overtly fruity or tropical fruit or any of that? It’s very, um, reserved. Reserved elegance is like the word that comes to mind. It’s like, um, very silky smooth and hints at, um, maybe apple or some kind of fruitiness, but very restrained and very, very elegant. It’s. So much about the texture for me here. Very velvety and delicious. Not heavy at all. Uh, it’s 16% alcohol. There’s, it says Genshu. So there’s no water added to this, even though it’s brewed to a lower alcohol level. And, I think that this rice, the special rice they’re using, the Asahi Mai is contributing to some of these flavors that we’re having a hard time really pinning down. I think this goes back to that original heirloom, non crossbred rice. So it may be that we’re discovering the flavors of this Asahi rice.

John Puma: 16:25
I think you’re right and I, I think that one of the things that’s the most fun about this, that it is sort of like. Subverting expectations in a way. You know, you’re having this Daiginjo, you’re expecting like, oh, it’s gonna be fruity and blah, blah, blah. Fruity and light. And like in this, it’s like, it’s, there is some sort of a fruit here. But it’s a very, different style, much like I’m agreeing with you a hundred percent. Uh, is that, this is, it’s very unusual and I like it a lot. It’s very challenging. it’s very challenging to describe the flavor while, um, while being extremely comforting from a texture standpoint. Like we’ve been down the road with Silky, wonderfully textured, sake like this before. But the, the taste here is just so, Hmm. It’s just so, There’s so much to explore and unpack. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:15
Yeah, it’s interesting, when sakes are bold. In your face loud, there’s no disputing like what’s going on. But when you have a sake like this that is so restrained and so elegant, and it’s not in your face,

John Puma: 17:31
It’s so much more difficult.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:34
It, it’s difficult to find the words, to find the descriptors to, to, give it its justice, you know, when in a, in describing how it is. but I think, um, for me, the texture is so. Subtle and elegant. It is not, I think if, if you describe it in a way that you say, oh, it’s elegant, it’s restrained. Some people might think, oh, it’s probably too boring for me, but no way this, there’s so much to explore. I.

John Puma: 18:03
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:04
And again, I think it’s, it’s an unknown rice to us kind of coming through on the palate and it doesn’t taste rice or grainy at all, so it’s not like a traditional rice flavor coming across. But I think that is giving it the depth of flavor that we’re kind of trying to describe. I think it’s coming from that Asahi Mai Rice.

John Puma: 18:25
Yeah, I think that, This is really interesting to me because we’ve been doing this show for a very long time now, and outside of that, I’ve been tasting sake with you for even longer, and I’ve, I’ve never seen you, at a loss for words for trying to describe what you’re experiencing when you’re tasting a sake before, not like this. And I think that’s amazing that this sake is here and it’s, and it’s able to do that. you know, you’ve had things that you didn’t like that maybe you didn’t wanna describe, but this is something that you’re really enjoying and really having a hard time with. I think that’s like fascinating.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:03
I. I think it’s good to be challenged sometimes and try to dig around and, you know, uh, I’m tasting this for the first time and it’s true sometimes when you are evaluating a sake, you have to go back to it a second time, a third time experience it, uh, maybe do a food pairing with it. So I’m not at all. Perturbed by, you know, not being able to nail down a flavor or aroma that we’re both like, aha. I think it’s fine to, to explore and, revisit down the road again. But it’s important to say that this is extremely delicious. Like it is really good. And sometimes you don’t need to know why something tastes good as long as you’re enjoying it. Right?

John Puma: 19:52
I think that’s absolutely true. It’s just such a hard sake to describe. It doesn’t, it doesn’t fit into the nice little bubbles and little compartments that we have in our minds for a lot of sakes, that tastes like that are of this type. it’s a lot of fun to, to delve into something new.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:09
Yeah, well I do have a tasting note from the brand. Should we read that and see what they say?

John Puma: 20:17
I am very curious to see what they say. Yes, absolutely.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:21
So they say the muscat driven Ginjo aroma introduces a vibrant bouquet that is beautifully complimented, by the balanced Umami and refreshing characteristic of Asahi rice. The palate offers a rich depth with a light crisp base, making it both approachable and versatile. The flavor remains stable when cooled, ensuring a consistent and high quality experience in every glass. So they don’t go into much detail. They gave us musk, they said muscat driven aroma.

John Puma: 20:54
No, I’m gonna,

Timothy Sullivan: 20:58
Yeah. It’s not as Muscat grapey as I would think, but

John Puma: 21:04
Right. When I hear Driven, I’m I’m thinking it’s, it’s, you know, it’s, taking the wheel. Uh, no, this is, it’s subtly there. Um, and it’s not something I picked up on earlier, but, yeah, I do like how even they avoided specific known fruit. Descriptors that like don’t really apply to this sake. The sake’s different. It’s fun and different. It’s, it is all these things that they described it as though

Timothy Sullivan: 21:28
Yeah.

John Puma: 21:29
really nice. So, I wanna know, uh, what you think about food with this since is this. Yeah. So we’ve got texture, the texture here. You got that silky, elegant la aha. Oh, it’s so wonderful. and then you’ve got this, this, this really nice, Restrained crisp sake. What are you thinking?

Timothy Sullivan: 21:47
Hmm. Well, my mind immediately goes to lighter, cleaner dishes. I think that if you were having sushi or sashimi, this would be an amazing sake to have with it. I think that anything from the raw bar, like shrimp cocktail, oysters on the half shell, crab legs, all my, my standard go-tos poached fish as well. I think that seafood would be the best friend of this sake, basically.

John Puma: 22:14
Yeah. I immediately, my mind immediately went to sushi usually sushi is so light and this would be such a great compliment to, to so much of that sushi and sashimi. Other types of, I, I would love like a, like a, like a white fish with a really mild, sauce. I think that would be like a, like a broiled, broiled white fish would be amazing with this. I think the two of them would go fabulously together. Let’s see. They recommend. Let’s take a look out. They recommended sushi and sashimi. Okay. Alright. Uh, steamed vegetables, salads, uh, citrus based dressings. Oh, okay. I’m a, I’m a fan of citrus based dressings. I can see that going well with this. And they recommend this, Chilled in a wine class. Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:58
Yeah.

John Puma: 22:59
Yeah. We’re doing it right, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:01
All right. That’s good. Well, I, I think now that I’ve thought about it for a little bit, I think that there are other sakes that I often pair with sushi and sashimi that are clean, crisp, and they are, dry. You know, they are a little more bracing. This has a, a depth of flavor to it that brings more dimension and. This one has that, a very subtle rice flavor from the Asahi Mai that gives it a depth of flavor. Even though it’s so restrained and elegant, there’s a depth going on. And I think that, uh, that just brings a little more to the party when it comes to layering flavors with a food pairing. You know what I mean?

John Puma: 23:51
Yeah, I think I do. And I agree. I’m like so excited to try this with food now. Like that’s, um, that’s my main takeaway from this is like, you know, I’m not the pairing guy. I’m the sit on the couch and drink the sake guy. We’ve talked about this before, but like, this sake makes me so excited to try it with food. I am. I’m gonna do some, I’m gonna do some experiments for the next week, I think, and just kind of every dish I have, I’m gonna pour a little bit of this and see how it goes. Like, I am really excited to see what happens with this. It just, it, it seems like there’s a lot of fun possibilities.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:27
Yeah, and I’m intrigued by the subtlety of this sake. It’s so delicious. It’s a ultra premium Junmai Daiginjo, but it has this subtleness to it that makes you want to look in the glass and study it. Like that’s what’s getting me. It’s like, oh my gosh, this tastes so good. What’s going on? And it’s the combination of the gentle fruitiness with the rice flavor at a super premium level that I think is really grabbing me. Yeah, it’s really good.

John Puma: 24:58
I agree a hundred percent. It is, um, it’s been a while since I’ve had a sake that was, uh, so. so different yet. So just, I want more, you know, it’s, you know what I mean? It’s like, it’s such a, it’s a unique flavor and a, and a wonderful combination, of the flavor and the texture and the, and the Crispness. And I’m just, I just want to explore this and, and have so much of it and try it and see what’s going on. Like it’s, um, I just feel like I can get a lot out of this sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:28
Yeah, it’s appealing, it’s elegant, but I think it’s fair to say that this is also food friendly for a Junmai Daiginjo.

John Puma: 25:37
Uh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And note, note that my first instinct wasn’t, I’m taking this to the couch. I’ll see you later. This is my first instinct was I need to try this with some food.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:47
So, uh, the brand again is Hououbiden. It’s a little difficult to say Hououbiden

John Puma: 25:55
that doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:57
Hououbiden

John Puma: 25:58
Hououbiden

Timothy Sullivan: 26:00
Hououbiden. But I’m really excited to try more sakes from this brand. Now what about you?

John Puma: 26:07
Absolutely. Um, I’m, I would be lying if I said I haven’t tried another sake from this brand.’cause I very much have, and they are honestly, they’re, the other ones I’ve had from them have been wonderful and elegant, but they were a little easier to put into a box where you’re just like, this is, you know, this one’s very nice and fruity. It’s got a really, you know, a wonderful mouth feel, et cetera, et cetera. Like there was, they were easier to, for me to just kind of like go like, okay, this is, this is this style, this is that style. Whereas this one for me is just such a, just a different style. It’s a new style for me. Really nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:46
Yeah, I think, one thing I didn’t mention earlier is that I think their water comes from an underground source, so, that might mean that their water has a bit more minerality and that might add to some of the layering in the sake as well. That’s just, I’m, I’m taking a, a guess here, but I did read that they’re, they use an underground water source. And, I think that might play a role in some of the depth of flavor and layering that we’re getting here. But I’m excited to try more from this brand for sure. So John, do you know any of the other sakes that, sake Suki is bringing in from Hououbiden?.

John Puma: 27:25
Yes. So, um, in addition to this one is the, uh, Asahi Mai. They’ve also got the, uh, sake Mirai, which is that, uh, that wonderful sake rice that was originally cultivated in, uh, if I’m not mistaken, in the Yamagata. I think this is a. Uh, Juyondai’s Rice, and then also the black Phoenix, which I’ve, I’ve definitely had, uh, in Japan before. And that is Aiyama. So Aiyama starting to come into, starting to come into the States. I’m very excited. I am, it’s been a long time coming.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:55
We know you’re an Aiyama fanboy

John Puma: 27:57
I am a fan boy. This is, this is the truth. I’m not gonna attempt in any way to disguise that. I am 100% a fanboy, unabashed.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:08
Alright, well, sounds like we’re gonna have to get that Aiyama sake from Hououbiden on the show at some point in the future, but this was a fun look into this brewery and a very interesting setup with a married couple being president and Toji and an intriguing sake. So just, uh, really interesting all around.

John Puma: 28:32
Yeah. Good times, and I’m, and I’m. Glad to see this one, in the States. It’s just, it’s always, it’s always exciting when new stuff comes to our shores.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:42
Yeah. Well thanks to you, John. Thanks for tasting this intriguing sake with me. Special thank you to Sake Suki for, Providing this sake for us to taste today, and I wanna say a special hello and thank you to all of our listeners, but especially the members of our Patreon community. If you’re interested in supporting Sake Revolution, we do have a Patreon. You can visit us at patreon.com/sakerevolution and join our community. We do a live happy hour. Every month where you can talk to us and sip sake with us. So if you’d like to, uh, chat with us in person, join our Patreon, and we look forward to meeting you. There

John Puma: 29:23
And if you’ve got a question for Tim and I here, or maybe a show suggestion, or maybe we flub something and you need to correct us, that’s very important too.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:31
it, it happens.

John Puma: 29:33
It does happen from time to time. uh, we wanna hear from you though. Uh, reach out to us. We’ve got an email address. It’s feedback@sakerevolution.com. The website also has a little form you can fill out to send us messages directly. You can also slide into our dms on Facebook or Instagram. until next time though, please remember to keep a drinking sake. And Kanapi.

Episode 178. In this episode join John and Timothy as they interview Keith Norum. Keith is a well known figure in the sake industry and he has represented the Masumi brand of sake since 2005. Keith tells us his story of getting to Japan and finding his way to the world of sake. What’s it like working at a traditional Japanese sake brewery? Keith gives us a peek behind the noren! Together we all taste one of the most popular Masumi sakes in the market outside Japan – Masumi Shiro Junmai Ginjo – a light and breezy delight! Join us and listen in as we chat with our good buddy in Nagano! #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 02:00 Interview: Keith Norum

Profile – Keith Norum

Keith’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/keithnorum/
Masumi’s Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/masumi_sake_atw/

UrbanSake.com blog post when Timothy met Keith for hte first time: https://www.urbansake.com/masumi-evening-at-sakagura/

---

Skip to: 18:10 Sake Introduction and Tasting: Masumi “Shiro” Junmai Ginjo

Masumi “Shiro” Junmai Ginjo

Brewery: Miyasaka Jozo
Alcohol: 12.0%
Classification: Junmai Ginjo
Seimaibuai: 55%
Prefecture: Nagano
Rice Type: Miyamanishiki, Yamadanishiki
SMV: -3.0
Brand: Masumi (真澄)
Importer/Distributor: World Sake Imports (USA)
Yeast: Proprietary Masumi 7
Acidity: 1.5
View on UrbanSake.com: https://www.urbansake.com/product/masumi-shiro-junmai-ginjo/

---

Skip to: 31:33 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast I am one of your hosts John Puma. I’m from the Sake Notes Also the administrator over at the internet sake Discord and Reddit’s r Slash sake community

Timothy Sullivan: 0:39
And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a sake samurai. I’m the director of education at the Sake Studies Center, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:56
Well, hello, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:58
Hello, John. I’m so excited.

John Puma: 1:00
Yeah. Yeah. I’ve noticed, We are in the midst of our series that has yet to be named, where we talk to people who have had, uh, experience working at Japanese sake breweries. Now, Tim, who is this man that is in our zoom?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:16
I am so excited to welcome our friend Keith Norum. He’s the Director of International Sales at Masumi Sake Brewery from Nagano Prefecture. Now, John, you and I have featured Masumi and we’ve talked about Nagano several times on the podcast. And when we decided to start a series where we interview people who’ve worked at Japanese sake breweries. Keith’s name popped right to the top of my list.

John Puma: 1:44
He might be like the second or third person we mentioned. I think

Timothy Sullivan: 1:47
Keith,

Keith Norum: 1:47
I allowed to laugh now?

John Puma: 1:49
you are totally allowed to laugh now.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:51
Keith, we are so excited to welcome you to Sake Revolution and, uh, welcome. We’re so happy to have you here.

Keith Norum: 2:00
Well, thank you, Timothy. Good to see you. John, what a nice surprise and what a pleasure and an honor to, to podcast with you guys. I’m really excited and thank you for, for asking me. Um, I’m sure there are a lot of very interesting sake stories out there and I’m not one of them. I’m one of the more boring. One of the boring stories, but at least you get through those and you can go on to more, more scintillating, uh, content.

John Puma: 2:26
Oh my goodness. I don’t know. What kind of show

Keith Norum: 2:28
But I’m, but I’m, I’m happy, I’m happy to fill the air with some stories and that sort of thing.

John Puma: 2:33
Wonderful. We’re very glad to have you.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:36
before you fill the air with stories, Keith, I have to fill the air with one of my stories. I want to go back in time to the first time I ever met you, Keith Norum, I looked it up. I went to the deepest, darkest archives of urban sake, and I found the first time that I encountered you. It was at Sakagura restaurant here in New York on May 15th, 2006. Uh, this was less than, this was less

John Puma: 3:07
I gotta say on May 15th,

Timothy Sullivan: 3:10
yes.

John Puma: 3:11
I had, had my first drink of sake about one month before that.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:15
Yeah. And I had had my first drink of sake about one year before

John Puma: 3:18
Yeah.,

Timothy Sullivan: 3:18
Keith was doing a Masumi night at Sakagura restaurant, and you had, uh, Nasutoji. Yes.

Keith Norum: 3:27
Sakagura and May, I was thinking that might’ve been the first time that Nasu-toji and I visited New York city. Was that right? That was the first time for him.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:36
Yes. And I remember saying goodbye to you, shaking your hand, and saying to you, gosh, I, how do you get to do what you’re doing? Like, this, your job of, Traveling and introducing sake just from that point in my sake journey sounded like the coolest thing in the whole world. And here we are, all these years later, and I just wanted to let you know that I think of that moment regularly and, you are such an inspiration and, uh, it was just such, such a fond memory and it was fun to reread that blog post today. I’ll put a link to it in the show

John Puma: 4:15
Oh, that’s

Keith Norum: 4:16
Oh, really? Okay. That was before Snapchat, so things don’t disappear in the air,

Timothy Sullivan: 4:22
do not disappear on Urban Sake.

John Puma: 4:26
Ah, the age of blogs. I remember those days fondly.

Keith Norum: 4:30
Timothy, that’s so kind of you to say that and to remember that. I also remember meeting you there, I just didn’t remember the year. It’s funny how the pandemic has messed up pretty much everybody’s recollection of years.

John Puma: 4:45
Mm hmm.

Keith Norum: 4:46
I just, I, I can never place anything properly anymore, but I also remember, meeting you and I remember you mentioning that you’re doing a blog about sake, which I was fascinated to hear about. and so I felt like These guys are really into this. they’re not just messing around and sort of a fun night with some strange alcohol. So I was really impressed from the very beginning.

John Puma: 5:13
that’s pretty cool. I didn’t realize you guys, uh, went back that far. I met Keith at the end of a Joy of Sake event with very fuzzy memory because it was the end of a Joy of Sake

Keith Norum: 5:22
Oh yeah,

John Puma: 5:23
But I, I think think that my, my wife, Myshell had met you earlier in the night. Or near the end of it and was like you have she came over to me. She’s like you gotta meet Keith Came over i’m like who’s Keith And she’s like this is Keith and you’re telling you introduce yourself and I was like, oh, I love Masumi. This is great

Keith Norum: 5:40
Good on Myshell typically, she’s on it and goes, okay, well, if I don’t get John over here, he’s going to be totally blotto and it won’t happen. So she got you on the leash before that could happen. That’s good.

John Puma: 5:55
Yeah, she’s good like that

Keith Norum: 5:57
oh.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:58
according to my extensive research, Keith, you You joined Miyasaka Jozo Miyasaka Brewery, makers of Masumi, full time in June of 2005 as the head of overseas operation. Uh, can you give us a quick, uh, summary of how you wound up in Japan and how you connected with, um, Masumi?

Keith Norum: 6:23
That’s a tough order. Uh, quick, quick is the hard part. Okay. But, Well, first, how I ended up in Japan. I actually came to Japan in 1990. it was still bubble time in

John Puma: 6:38
Yeah.

Keith Norum: 6:39
And I had, stepped out of graduate school. and decided not to pursue the academic career that I was in graduate school for, and, uh, I had a really, really important reason to go to Japan instead. Partly, work. Japan was booming and so there were, plenty of opportunities to find something to do there. And I was also married to a Japanese woman, wonderful woman, Michiko. We were married in the States and, I felt it was time to turn the tables. So, there were two Ws, there was work and there was a woman involved with my decision to move to Japan in 1990.

John Puma: 7:19
Hmm.

Keith Norum: 7:21
very shortly after we moved, we moved to Shizuoka, because that’s where her family’s from. And, we were looking around for work here and there, both of us, and I decided to pick up the phone because I remembered from my school years, uh, this company called Epson, which was making a lot of inkjet printers, and it was right at the time when, like, the Macintosh desktops, computers, and all of these things were really starting to come into the market, and so everybody needed a printer. And I happened to know that they were a Japanese company. Not a lot of people knew that. So I picked up the phone, called them, didn’t know anybody. And I think it was partly fate and partly just pure luck. The person who could speak English to me, who came on the line, had graduated a year before me from the same university,

Timothy Sullivan: 8:15
Oh,

Keith Norum: 8:16
had been, had been hired by Epson to start finding non Japanese people to work in Japan for them.

John Puma: 8:23
That is serendipity. Okay. I didn’t

Keith Norum: 8:29
know. I just picked up the phone. And before I knew it, I had moved from Shizuoka to Suwa in Nagano because that is the, global headquarters of the Seiko Epson Corporation. I say Seiko because Seiko watch company actually had a big hand in creating the Epson printer company. And they merged into a single corporation in the 1980s. So. Before I knew it, I was in heaven, mountain heaven, Suwa, working at a giant company, and I was on the five year plan, which I threw out the window about three years later, and

John Puma: 9:04
so hang on. What is the five year plan?

Keith Norum: 9:06
well, a five year contract, and then you go home

John Puma: 9:08
Oh, okay. So you’re just that it’s a one and done kind of thing.

Keith Norum: 9:12
And, I very quickly realized that, uh, uh, no, this, I don’t think I’m gonna be going home. and so I stayed.

John Puma: 9:21
Hmm.

Keith Norum: 9:22
brought me to Japan, and then it brought me to Suwa. And, uh, years ensued. And during those years, I met The Miyasaka family, just as friends, just as people in the neighborhood were fascinating and very warm and open, wonderful family. That’s where I encountered the Sake of Suwa at first, was through the Masumi branded Miyasaka family. Um, little did I know that he had ulterior motives in asking me to come to barbecues.

John Puma: 9:53
Aha.

Keith Norum: 9:55
So after, after 11 years I decided to leave Epson and we started a small company to, outsource. a human resources function from Epson. So we had our own little business and that’s when the Miyasaka family, actually the current president, Naotaka, knocked immediately on the door and said, Hey, you guys are free now. Can you help us?

Timothy Sullivan: 10:17
Hmm

Keith Norum: 10:18
so that was in 2001 to

John Puma: 10:21
2002 Hmm.

Keith Norum: 10:22
And we said, sure, it’d be great. And in about four years, we realized that having a small business can be very up and down. So. Having my wife Machiko, take that and me working full time for Masumi made sense for both companies. In 2005, as you mentioned, Timothy, I made the jump directly into Masumi as their overseas operations or sales person. So that’s how I ended up with Masumi. That wasn’t quick, but I guess it was quick enough.

John Puma: 10:52
It was efficient, I think. Thank you for sharing. Now, I think that our second question is probably going to be a little bit simpler, and it’s one that we ask of all of our guests. so, uh, the short version would be like, how are the, how did Saké happen for you? When was the aha? When was the, uh, like, Oh, this is something special kind of moment for you.

Keith Norum: 11:09
The very first time I encountered sake is something I remember because I was in West Virginia at the time. I was working for a daily newspaper in a place called Elkins, uh, and this was in the 80s and there wasn’t much in the way of Japanese food in Elkins, West Virginia in the 80s.

John Puma: 11:27
I’m wondering where the sake came from. That’s,

Keith Norum: 11:36
And. We decided, oh, look, they have sake, what the hell? And so we ordered a carafe, and it came out, I kid you not, it had a Chinese, very clearly a Chinese dressed woman on the picture, on the bottle. And it had an umbrella stuck in the top!

Timothy Sullivan: 11:54
hmm.

Keith Norum: 11:56
And

John Puma: 11:56
eighties Chinese restaurant right there.

Keith Norum: 11:58
oh, wow! And it was Forgettable sake, to be honest. I don’t know what it was. They didn’t even mention the brand. I don’t think that they knew the brand. And so that was a typical eighties encounter with sake in rural America.

John Puma: 12:13
Yes.

Keith Norum: 12:15
Years, years after that, honestly, the first time sake really became a thing for me was shortly after I moved to Japan. It was in Shizuoka, and we were with family and, you know, eating and all this kind of thing, and they brought out, Kaiun from Doi Shuzo, and it was so good. It was just so fresh and clear, and it just, I took a double take right there at the table, like, because I was, like, expecting another, you know, umbrella in a bottle or something, and this stuff was just. Really nice. And I went, gee, I better have another look at that. And it wasn’t so long after that, that, uh, we moved to Suwa. And, just like any big corporate, organization, they have a lot of, uh, drinking parties after work that are obligatory, so it’s kind of like work. And at some point in the evening, they would trot out either or both chilled sake and warm sake. Almost always, it was a collection of the local sakes. It was some from maybe Colton and maybe Kodu and Masumi and honking. So it was always a mix of local sake. It was mostly, uh, standard level futsushu, and it was really good. It was just nothing like I thought sake could be. So after that, while I was, I was hooked in into it and I was curious about it. But I must say, I was not, I didn’t become some kind of sake maniac. I did not suddenly do a huge deep dive into the sake pool. I was just there. It was part of your daily life. And there were plenty of other things that occupied me. So, I wasn’t, I wasn’t sort of transformed into some kind of sake evangelist overnight. It wasn’t like that.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:03
Well, you’ve been working with Masumi Brewery since 2005, and we’d love to get your perspective on working for a Japanese sake brewery as a non Japanese person. You’ve been with the same brewery for a long time now, and we’d love to hear some of the Uh, the challenges or some of the things that have really surprised you in a positive way about working for a Japanese sake brewery as a non Japanese person. What are some of your thoughts on that?

Keith Norum: 14:35
Okay, here we go. I’m going to watch the time on this one. But no, no, really, honestly, because I’d already been in Japan quite a while before actually joining or working with, you know, Miyasaka Brewing Company. Um, I didn’t have the kind of real big culture shock that a lot of people do when they move to Japan. And just start jumping straight into, uh, an industry like sake, uh, Timothy, you could probably speak more about that kind of thing than me, given your experience with Hakkaisan and all that. So, I didn’t experience that kind of culture shock. The beginning with Masumi was very positive and very pleasant. we had already been friends. We were karaoke friends. We’d go to Thai restaurants together. Whoop it up because they had a karaoke room in the back and stuff. So that part of it was, was, was really enjoyable. Um, and also very positive. The shift from kind of dealing with big corporations in the tech area, like Epson and Canon and so on, to working with a sake brewery, one of the most unexpected, pleasant things was the company was so open about what they do with other makers.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:48
Hmm.

Keith Norum: 15:48
didn’t have a lot of secrets, and in the tech industry, it’s like everything’s a secret, and there’s an NDA for everything, and, and you just, but, uh, the Miyasakas had lots of other brewers who were their friends, and they had personal family relationships, and, and they were sharing all this really important information, technical information about what they do, and problems that they’d solved, and so on, and it was just, uh, such a breath of fresh air that people were so open and so supportive of each other. So I think that was one thing that hit me quick, and it’s always stayed with me. It’s one of the wonderful things about this industry.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:26
I ask you one really quick question, um, before we move on? Did you, when you started working at the brewery, did you do any production training or did you always have more of an office, um, sales marketing job?

Keith Norum: 16:42
Good question, and it was always in the office. I had training in the sense of, well, it’s best if you know how this works, so it was training in the sense of, so that I can explain things better, but there was never a point where they said, uh, you know, we’re a little short in manpower, can you come over and help us, carry rice around or, or do something? It was never that kind of situation where, we had to. I was needed in the brewery to help actually produce the sake. and that’s fine. I mean, I knew that I wasn’t going to be in that kind of capacity anyway. so I never felt left out of that. And, again, some of the things were some of the people that I brought in were just there for a day, but there were opportunities with other producers. For example, a beer maker from Norway. No, no. And he spent a month. In there. we had a winemaker from Denmark, and she spent almost the same, it was about three weeks, because she wanted to learn for her own professional use, the techniques of fermentation. And so, at times I really was allowed to stay in there every day for months at a time. So, that was great too.

John Puma: 18:00
Great. Cool. I think it is time that we stop dancing around the issue and start talking about and sipping some of the delicious sake

Keith Norum: 18:08
okay.

John Puma: 18:10
So, uh, Timothy, what have we got today?

Timothy Sullivan: 18:14
Well, we asked Keith which sake from the Masumi lineup he would like to taste with us and feature in this episode, and we landed on the Masumi Shiro Junmai Ginjo. Uh, very dedicated listeners of Sake Revolution will know that. We featured this sake back in December of 2023 in episode 161, which was our, brand profile of Masumi. So we’ve tasted this before on the show, but we are so excited to taste it with Keith together. Uh, Keith, would it be all right if I rattled off the stats for this sake for our listeners?

Keith Norum: 18:56
Please do.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:57
Alright, so again, this is from Miyasaka Jozo in Nagano, brand name Masumi. One of the key features of this sake is its lower alcohol content, about 12 percent alcohol, and the rice polishing ratio is 55 percent remaining, and this features Miyamanishiki and Yamadanishiki. Our SMV is minus three. And this features the world renowned Kyokai No. 7 Yeast, which is also tied to Masumi. And an acidity of 1. 5. So there you have it.

Keith Norum: 19:36
All righty. Thank you, Timothy. And I’m so glad you rattled it off because there’s always minor changes

John Puma: 19:42
Ooh,

Keith Norum: 19:43
so you mentioned Kyokai number seven. Yes,

Timothy Sullivan: 19:47
Oh, yes, I

John Puma: 19:48
he did.

Keith Norum: 19:50
actually, uh, Masumi now does not use the Kyokai. Kyokai means, uh, society, brewing society or brewing association. We, over the course of the last 10 years, have been working very hard to step away from buying the No. 7 yeast, Kyokai No. 7, from the Brewing Society. For the longest time, even though that yeast was first discovered and identified at Masumi, Masumi had been buying it back, just like everybody else.

John Puma: 20:21
Mm

Timothy Sullivan: 20:21
hmm.

Keith Norum: 20:23
you know, I think it was 2018, we finally made the switch to our own versions of the No. 7 yeast family. we invested heavily in yeast development, uh, laboratory and researchers, and so now we have our own proprietary Masumi No. 7,

John Puma: 20:40
Well, then

Keith Norum: 20:41
so what we do is, we wanted to keep the No. 7 name, so we just changed the association to Masumi, and there you go.

John Puma: 20:50
All right. So we’ve got it in the glass.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:55
It’s very, very gentle, light aroma for sure. Yeah.

John Puma: 21:01
And that’s one of the things I always like about Masumi stuff is that the aroma is always very distinctive. I there’s a, there’s a little bit of like when I, have something from Masumi in my glass. I can usually, I’m like, unless this is a, this is a familiar aroma to me. Um, and it’s got a little, it’s a little bit of a signature to me in my mind, which I think is like really interesting is I don’t think there’s a lot of sake that has that.

Keith Norum: 21:23
Thank you for mentioning familiarity john I that’s something people often talk about it as a feeling of comfort. There’s, there’s something comfortable about the aroma and the overall taste profile. Absolutely. And I think that’s, that’s true. It’s, it’s something that people become very comfortable and familiar with. It’s something that makes them feel at home. I should mention that the milder type of aromas, are part of the characteristics of the No. 7 yeast. No. 7 can be produced in a way, when you use No. 7, of course your production methods can do a lot for aroma. So there are certain makers who use No. 7 from the association, Society No. 7, who do some incredibly aromatic things with it. But, as far as its base, if you’re just going to use it without doing anything particularly, uh, fancy with your technique, you’re going to get mild aromas. you’re going to find a kind of array that covers some of the bright spots in some other yeast, but not at the volume or intensity of those yeast. For example, number 9 and number 18 are really good at very bright, intense fruits, but they’re, they are some of the fruit characteristics you get are white fruits like pears and apples. You find those in number 7 as well, but they don’t come out at you with the intensity or the brightness that you find in those yeasts Number seven also produces the aromas that are more rounded and very soft banana. And, you know, the aromas of banana are very warm and comforting. not sharp, not bright. And so you get this interesting balance between some of the aromatic spectrum that you see in other sakes.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:08
Hmm. All Let’s give it a taste.

John Puma: 23:10
All right.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:11
It’s so lovely. It’s very soft, gentle, but there’s notes of like apple peel and, green apple on the palate that are really charming, really lovely. but one of the main focuses of this particular sake is to take a lighter approach. Is that right? Keith?

Keith Norum: 23:29
That’s right. In fact, I think the very first time we met, Already, this kind of sake from Masumi was in New York, and I think we might have even tasted it that evening at Sakagura.

John Puma: 23:41
Hmm.

Keith Norum: 23:42
At the time, it didn’t have this name, it wasn’t called Shiro. It was, it was part of a second brand, a family private reserve brand called Miyasaka. And it was in there, and it was called Miyasaka Yawaraka Junmai. and the English name on the back of all the Masumi bottles you have is Really cool English title for them, and it’s sake matinee,

John Puma: 24:05
Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:07
Yes.

Keith Norum: 24:08
and the point was, it’s, it’s 12 percent alcohol and obviously it’s going to come off lighter. It’s going to come off in a different way than a lot of sake is doing the first point to doing a sake at 12 percent was from a chef in Japan who was complaining to a president that he does a lot of lunchtime corporate dinners with people from all over the world. And his, he’s a Japanese chef, he does beautiful Japanese food, and people ordering, you know, Sauvignon Blanc and, and Chablis and stuff because they’re afraid that the sake is going to get everybody drunk and then they can’t have their afternoon plan.

John Puma: 24:46
That, that is a completely reasonable concern for an afternoon of drinking when you’re having something that’s like, you know, 16, 15 percent alcohol. Absolutely.

Keith Norum: 24:55
so so that’s where it started but very quickly. We realized partly the market made us realize that it’s not just something for lunchtime. It’s a sake that was waiting to be had that a lot of people outside of Japan especially who haven’t encountered much sake do feel the alcohol very forward. In sake, they can have a really bold red wine that’s about 15% alcohol and a sake, which is usually 15, and they’ll always feel the alcohol stronger than sake. So giving them an option of having it at 12 so that they’re not put off or distracted by the feeling of alcohol and they can actually feel the sake more. Broadly, it was something that helped them get into the sake house and start exploring. So it turned out to be just a wonderful sake in that application.

John Puma: 25:50
So it sounds like you’re describing it almost like a gateway sake.

Keith Norum: 25:54
Yeah, exactly. And in fact, just in terms of our export share, we’re right now at about 15, 1. 5 percent of our total sales per year are export sales, meaning not in Japan. So 15%. So most of the products that we export, if you compare the percentage of sales of that product, it’s around the same. So maybe 20 percent of a product is sold overseas and the rest is in Japan, typically. This product that we’re having, Shiro, 50 percent is overseas and 50 percent is in Japan. It is that much of a special product for overseas. Be careful. We did not make it for the overseas market. We made it because some guy in Tokyo said, come on, can’t you do me a sake that’s a little lower? Uh, but the result was that. So that’s, I think says it all really.

John Puma: 26:50
That’s awesome. That’s really cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:52
So, when we were setting up this interview, Keith, we asked you from the entire Masumi portfolio, which sake you’d like to feature and want to taste with us, and you chose this, uh, Shiro, this lower alcohol sake that you’ve been describing so eloquently. Why did you choose this out of the Masumi portfolio to taste with us today and introduce to our listeners?

Keith Norum: 27:16
Good question. And the, the obvious answer is you guys said it has to be a sake that’s available in America,

Timothy Sullivan: 27:25
True.

Keith Norum: 27:25
it has to be a sake that people can sort of reliably find if they’re in certain urban parts of the country. And partly it’s the story that I told about it, the fact that it’s been in the market as a 12 percent alcohol Jumai ginjo for a very long time, and that its popularity is clear. I felt this was the best one to help people actually go out and try it right away, but they’ll probably be able to find it. It’s also the one that I mentioned, comfort and home. This is often the sake that ends up being in our refrigerator because We’re just at home. I’m not, I’m not gonna do a giant tasting of sake every night. I’m having dinner and I want a sake that’s not going to knock me off my chair, but it’s going to go with the food and my wife and I are going to enjoy our conversation and our meal. And this is the one that ends up being the one in the refrigerator a lot. That’s why.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:22
Now, if people want to learn more about your work or learn more about. Masumi, where can people go online and, uh, discover more?

Keith Norum: 28:33
Well, one is just, if you just Google Masumi Sake, then pretty quickly, you’ll get to our English website and, although I know websites are kind of passe and everybody’s into the SNS thing and all that, honestly, just, just as a base, go to the website and it’s fairly deep. It goes through a lot of things, obviously talks about our products, talks about the history of the company. It also talks about how sake is made. In quite some detail. So it’s there as a resource and you can just, you know, nibble at that as you go along. We do have a couple of Instagram presences. There’s a, the main one, which is just Masumi. If you put Masumi sake or something in, you’ll get the Japanese one. I must say, though, just as a, as a parting note, I am, uh, now a sort of special situation employee, uh, because I’m over 60 years old, and I’ve been turned into what’s called the Shogutaku, uh, that means that I’m a Shogutaku. Yes, so Shokutaku, and it’s a special situation for older companies in Japan often do this, so I turned 60, and they retire you, and then they rehire you. So I’m a retired, rehired employee, and I’m doing about what I did before, but

John Puma: 29:50
Okay.

Keith Norum: 29:51
it’s just, yep, it’s one of those things. And we do have finally a new guy who’s helping and he’s going to be working more and more in international sales based in suwa. He’s not a Japanese guy, he’s from Hong Kong originally, but he spent most of his educational years through high school and And college in London,

John Puma: 30:11
Mm hmm.

Keith Norum: 30:11
uh, his name is Hugo Chan, and he is going to be doing more and more with the, for example, the Instagram and this kind of thing, as well as just the typical international sales work that, that we do. So you’ll be seeing a lot of him and you’ll probably see more Instagram. Thanks to him.

John Puma: 30:29
I, I had the pleasure of meeting Hugo, uh, earlier this year. Joy of sake. happy to meet him. Yeah.

Keith Norum: 30:33
So,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:34
That’s wonderful. And Keith, you’re also, I’ve seen a lot of really amazing YouTube videos featuring you talking about the brand and the sake, so there’s a YouTube channel as well, isn’t there?

Keith Norum: 30:44
that’s right. Thank you for reminding me. The reason I forgot was we did that during the pandemic. We had a video company that did those YouTube things for a

John Puma: 30:52
Oh, wow. Okay.

Keith Norum: 30:54
And, there were a lot of fun. Thanks to the video company that would come in and set it all up and do them and honestly there were a lot of fun for me too but unfortunately that relationship had a sort of ending point too. And so for the last several years we just. At least I haven’t been directly involved much with the YouTube thing. I would like to get back into it in some way or another, but it just hasn’t happened recently.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:16
it was such a pleasure to talk to you and have you on the show today. Uh, thank you so much for joining us, Keith. I

Keith Norum: 31:24
No, it was a great pleasure and honor. Thank you guys for asking me on. And, uh, I’m sure that this conversation will continue as we go along.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:33
hope so. We can’t wait to have you back again. All right. Well, in addition to Keith, I also want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in for each and every episode and a special hello and shout out to all of our Patrons For those of you who would like to support Sake Revolution, we do have a Patreon, and we appreciate our patrons so much. They make Sake Revolution possible. If you’d like to learn more about supporting us on Patreon, visit Patreon.com/SakeRevolution.

John Puma: 32:05
Uh, and if you were inspired earlier when Keith corrected us on the yeast to use in the sake, and you have other corrections, maybe did we mess something up? Is there something that you need to tell us? Is there a way we can make this show better? We want to hear from you. We want you to reach out to us, the email address for that. And if you thought websites were old email, you can email us at feedback@sakerevolution.Com. You can also just get at us on Instagram, Okay. at SakeRevolutionPod. We will thank you for your, your kind words and we’ll get back to you. Uh, now with that said, everybody please raise your glass. Remember to keep drinking sake and

Timothy Sullivan: 32:44
Kanpai!

Episode 177. If we think about sake, usually an image of a glass bottle pops to mind. But if we scratch the surface and investigate a bit more the way that sake is packaged and shipped, there is a world of variety out there you may not have considered! This leads us to one of our series we are calling “Funky Packaging”… think of it as sake beyond the glass bottle. Cups, bags, paks, and today’s packaging – the Joto One Cup – a special paper cup that makes sake accessible on the go. Listen in as we explore another variation of funky packaging with a graffiti twist. #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 01:26 Funky Packaging: Joto One Cup

From the Importer:

This sake is made by Marumoto Brewery, in Okayama Prefecture. Brewmaster and president, Niichiro Marumoto, is known for his creative approach to sake making; from growing his own sake rice right outside the brewery to pioneering the science of Sparkling Sake. The Joto One cup is another example of Marumoto’s expertise in combining tradition and innovation in one delicious sake. This one-cup sake is the best selling one-cup sake in Okayama prefecture. Joto One-cup sake is packaged in an eye-catching single serve container designed by the Japanese graffiti artist, Shiro One. Joto One Cup shows old and new Japan in one.

---

Skip to: 06:23 About the Artist: Shiro One

Artist’s Bio for Shiro One:

“Shiro’s artwork is an exploration of classic New York urban history through the lens of an artist who reveres Hip Hop culture. Her artwork is a prime example of the fusion of Japanese aesthetics and old school New York graffiti art. Her character named “Mimi” is incredibly recognizable. Mimi has deeper meaning beyond the surface, she is emblematic of strength and femininity. A formative time for the artist was in her early 20’s. She worked as an RN in Japan, a time she faced her patients, and experienced the end of life while taking care of each one. Her practice as a nurse made her realize that every life is limited. This pungent realization inspired her to travel the world and create her murals as her “footprints”. In 2002, she moved to New York alone, and after living between Japan and New York, she obtained an US American artist visa in 2013, acquired an US artist green card in 2021, and is currently based in New York. Her motto is “Love life and live it to the max. We exists only RIGHT NOW, RIGHT HERE!” She has traveled and created murals in 19 countries on 5 continents and more to come. As the artist evolves her creative practices, which include fashion, graphic design and fine arts including murals for global communities, she will continue to build her artistic career and further her legacy.”

– Bio from Shiro One website

About Grafitti Artist Shiro One
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/shiro_one/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ShiroBJ46/#
Website: https://shiro1.com/

---

Skip to: 10:32 Sake Tasting: Joto One Cup Sake

Joto One Cup Sake

Brewery: Marumoto Shuzo
Prefecture: Okayama
ACIDITY: 1.3
ABV: 15%
SEMAIBUAI: 70%
NIHONSHUDO: -2
RICE: Akebono & Yamada Nishiki Rice
YEAST: #1401
PRESSING: Yabuta
PASTEURIZATION: Twice
YEAST STARTER METHOD: Ko-on-toka

---

Skip to: 27:45 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

Description
Transcript
John Puma: 0:22
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s First Sake Podcast I’m your host John Puma from the Sake Notes, also the administrator over at the Internet Sake Discord and Reddit’s r slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:37
And I’m your host, Timothy, Sullivan. I’m a sake samurai. I’m the director of Education at the Sake Studies Center, as well as the founder of the urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake, and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand. Hello, John. I’m

John Puma: 0:55
Timothy, good to see you. How are you today?

Timothy Sullivan: 0:57
doing good. Excited to be back in the studio recording again?

John Puma: 1:03
The studio, huh? Yes, yes, the studio, the virtual studio, the Zoom studio. But we’re here, we’re here, and we have in front of us today bit of sake, that has a bit of a funky package.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:19
Yes, it’s time to get funky again. I can’t believe it but it’s just, It’s just you and me in the

John Puma: 1:24
can’t believe your puns.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:26
It’s just you and me in the studio today. we’re going to be looking at some funky packaging and I think with all humility, John, I think this funkiest we’ve come across. So I’m very excited.

John Puma: 1:39
Yeah, this one is, been around for a little bit and I think people might be a little familiar. Uh, I know that I’ve certainly had it before. Tim, have you had this one

Timothy Sullivan: 1:47
I have had it before, but I’m excited to try it again. it’s, been, it’s. been a good, It’s been a minute. since I’ve tried this sake.

John Puma: 1:53
So, uh, we’re gonna pull back veil here and tell everybody what we’re drinking and talking about. And that is the Joto one cup sake cup and and you might oh, it’s a one cup. That’s that is not funky but no with this one cup is Unusual and especially united States is is funky and Tim. Why is that?

Timothy Sullivan: 2:16
Well, it is a paper one cup, so it feels kind of like a Dixie cup, doesn’t it? Like, it’s like a wax, wax coated paper cup

John Puma: 2:31
Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan: 2:32
the size, let’s check. The size is 200 milliliters,

John Puma: 2:36
mm hmm

Timothy Sullivan: 2:37
so a little

John Puma: 2:37
is a little unusual,

Timothy Sullivan: 2:39
bit more than one go.

John Puma: 2:41
Yeah, for people at home, the one cup is typically either, like, glass or, um, is it like aluminum, Tim? It’s aluminum? Metal? So, yeah, so aluminum or glass, and so having something that is literally paper, and it does, Tim, you nailed it with the dixie cup, it does look like it’s a big Dixie

Timothy Sullivan: 3:06
Yeah. so when you have a regular glass, one cup, like you said, there’s usually that foil topping that you peel off like a pringles can. I remember talking about that on the show. uh, this has a plastic lid that comes off and then there’s a foil, very thin foil cover.

John Puma: 3:27
So the foil, the foil does make an appearance. It just, uh, it’s actually a much thinner

Timothy Sullivan: 3:31
Very thin. Yeah. yeah.

John Puma: 3:33
It’s, It’s, almost like a Capri Sun kind of thing. It’s like, you could probably poke a hole in this with a straw if you wanted

Timothy Sullivan: 3:38
You could definitely poke a hole in that. And, but you know, John, if it was just a paper, one cup, that would be funky, but Joto has done something to take this to another level. We got to talk about the design on this paper cup.

John Puma: 3:55
It is, it is one of the more interesting looking sake labels, and it’s, so it’s interesting because, we’ve talked about Joto before, we’ve had, we’ve had people on the show from Joto before, and, you know, we’ve talked about how they do some white labeling, and this fits into that, this is a white labeled, uh, a white labeled sake, and Tim, can you remind people at home what white labeling is exactly?

Timothy Sullivan: 4:16
Sure, that’s when a company buys product from a brewery, and then they rebrand it, relabel it, and sell it under a different brand. So in the, in the case of this Joto one cup, Joto is very transparent and they purchase sake from, uh, Marumoto Shuzo, they’re, the makers of the brand Chikuren, which Joto has sold in the States for a long time. So they buy this sake from Marumoto Shuzo out of Okayama and they sell it as Joto brand. So that’s white labeling and it’s, it’s pretty common and they got to design their own label because of that. And they’ve gone for something super funky.

John Puma: 5:03
Yeah. And they, you know, again, they, they, they do this often with, with white labeling and usually they’re, bottled sake it’s the packaging is usually it’s a little bit more, uh, restrained this one, they just went for it And it’s, it’s just, it’s almost like graffiti art. Right, Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 5:18
it’s not like graffiti art, it is graffiti art.

John Puma: 5:21
well then.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:24
This is a graffiti design. it says Joto One Cup Sake. And there are lots of motifs in here. Maybe we can describe a bit for our listeners. Of course, you can visit sakerevolution. com and you can look up this funky packaging episode and look at a picture of this label, which we will put there for you to see. We have the great wave of Kamakura at the bottom, probably one of the most famous symbols of Japan. We’ve got Mount Fuji in the clouds. We’ve got rice. Uh, there’s a bird and there’s a fish.

John Puma: 6:01
is a bird and a fish, and in the background implies the old, sun raised japanese flag.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:07
And in the upper left corner is a, drawing of a brewery worker with a headband on straining to stir the moromi. So

John Puma: 6:18
he looks like he’s, Hey, he’s busy. He’s having a, a rough day. He looks tired.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:22
Yeah, and he also makes an appearance on the foil cover.

John Puma: 6:27
repeated appearances on the foil cover.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:29
Yeah.

John Puma: 6:30
with the Joto logo.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:32
Absolutely. So, I researched a little bit where this label came from, and Joto actually partnered with a New York City based Japanese graffiti artist named Shiro One, and she is a well established graffiti artist who has a pretty interesting history. She’s originally from japan and she started her career out as a nurse. So she, yes, so she worked in a, in a

John Puma: 7:04
that’s quite the pivot.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:05
I know! Yeah, so she worked as a nurse for many years and decided to change career paths and was really interested in, I think it was in dancing originally. And then she became attracted to graffiti art and moved to New York on her own without knowing anybody and began doing murals. So, she’s really well known for her outdoor murals and she’s created a character named Mimi who appears in a lot of her murals and it’s kind of a symbol of female empowerment and a way of expressing her desire for what she wants to achieve and, uh, They’re really, really wonderful. So if you would like to. If you want to. see the work of Shiro One, the Japanese graffiti artist who made this label, please check our show notes and we’ll link to all of her Instagram and website so you can check out her work. And she’s still active in New York and actually recently launched a fashion collab. So now she’s doing graffiti art, but also fashion and she’s a super, super interesting person and just really really inspiring.

John Puma: 8:26
That’s great. That’s awesome. So now, uh, one thing I’ve noticed about this, before we go too much more in depth, is that they don’t they don’t say anything about, um, the grade of this sake. It doesn’t say anything about Junmai, or Junmai Ginjo, or anything like that. So, the thing that pops into my head is, oh, wait a minute. This just might be Futsushu.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:48
Yes, john, what is futsushu for our listeners at home

John Puma: 8:52
It is Hmm, I guess a derogatory way to say it would be it Is table sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:58
Well

John Puma: 8:59
It’s, you know, in all curiosities, like, would you consider somebody saying, like, table sake about Futsushu? Would that be Do you think that would be derogatory?

Timothy Sullivan: 9:06
I do not think that’s derogatory at all. My way to define it, honestly, is not non premium sake. So, you kind of draw that delineation between what qualifies for the premium classifications, and if for any reason you don’t qualify, then you fall into the futsushu category. But your sake can be amazing. It could be some other reason. that you’re not in a premium category. So, uh, I would say it’s basically defined as non premium, but it’s a big catch all term and there’s a lot of amazing futsushu out there. There’s some stuff that’s not the, best, but another colloquial way to describe it is, like you said, is table sake.

John Puma: 9:49
Yeah, yeah, and that’s the, uh When you asked me, I was like, I wanted to say, I was thinking like, Oh, either non premium or table sake, like, which does table sake, sound bad? And that’s why, that’s why I asked. And I thought it was a good, a good conversation to have. Cause it was, I think people at home might wonder if like the term table sake. is, Uh, is, is acceptable. Apparently it is

Timothy Sullivan: 10:09
I think I think so. Everyone has to make that decision for themselves, but I think I think it’s very acceptable now, Uh, let’s um, let’s Let the people know what the stats are because we have from the joto website We know what the stats are for this sake. So john, why don’t you tell them what we’re dealing with here? Well,

John Puma: 10:32
Uh, so Tim, as you mentioned earlier, this is, uh, the Joto One cup. Uh, it is from Marumoto Shuzo over in, in Okayama Prefecture this brewery, is well known, for making the rin brand of sake. this particular one though, this, uh, futsushu, is using, ake bono rice and Yamadanishiki. So this isn’t table rice in their table sake. They’re using some, some heavy hitters here and, uh, they’re milling them down to, 70% of their original size. the sake. meter value, that measure of dry to sweet, is minus two, the yeast, we actually have yeast information for this, uh, is, uh, 1401. the acidity is, uh, 1. 3, and Tim, would you consider 1. 3? That’s like kind of right, right in the, right in the average, right? Not, not too high, not too low? Or am I off on

Timothy Sullivan: 11:25
I consider most acidity between 1. 5 is medium. And so anything between 1.0-1.5, I consider on the lighter side of acidity.

John Puma: 11:37
Okay, so it’s a little bit lighter than, uh, and, uh, the ABV is 15%, which is sounds great for, for a cup of sake, right?

Timothy Sullivan: 11:47
Yeah. Now this is a futsushu. So one thing We haven’t talked about is. If this is alcohol added or pure rice, Junmai style, and because they are omitting any reference to the word Junmai here, I think It’s safe to assume that this is an Aruten or alcohol added style.

John Puma: 12:07
Probably.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:08
Yes, probably. Probably yes.

John Puma: 12:12
We have no way of knowing for sure, but the, the good money is on, is on, aruten, right?

Timothy Sullivan: 12:17
For sure. Yeah. And just one note before we crack this puppy open and drink it. This cup is also sold in Japan as addition to being sold here, and this actually is the best selling one cup in Okayama prefecture.

John Puma: 12:34
Really. That’s awesome.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:36
So the prefecture where Chiku and the, makers of this cup are located, this is the best selling one cup in the whole prefecture. So, uh, it, it has captured the local market for sure.

John Puma: 12:49
That’s great. That’s really cool. Uh, I, yeah, it’s, I, I don’t, I, I wouldn’t know what it would look like in Japan, you know, I don’t know what the, what the cup would, uh, would appear to be. So, i, I’m gonna to keep my eyes open next time over there and, uh, if I ever go to pre fixture, definitely something I’m gonna be looking for because I think it would be fun to, I think it’d be fun to snag the the original version

Timothy Sullivan: 13:09
Mm. All right. Well, you ready to get tasting?

John Puma: 13:15
am ready to get tasting. The fun part about this is that we don’t need to pour anything into any glasses. We can just drink this straight out of the cup

Timothy Sullivan: 13:22
All the time I’m going to save washing my wine glasses after this. All right.

John Puma: 13:28
Yes, but unfortunately, you’re also not going to get the ASMR pour moment that we usually get. But,

Timothy Sullivan: 13:35
we will get the

John Puma: 13:37
the pull test.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:39
pull tab. So let’s see if we can capture this without spilling. Okay. I’ve got mine open. Ooh.

John Puma: 13:46
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:47
Oh, wow. is that an optical illusion or is it It’s shiny on the inside.

John Puma: 13:54
It is shiny on the inside, tim, I think. So what I think is going on is probably a coating similar to the wax on the outside to protect the paper from, you know, falling apart. I assume.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:06
it, looks like there’s a firm inner plastic lining inside the cup, and it kind of gives it a silvery shimmer. it’s, really, really nice, actually. I like it. Hmm.

John Puma: 14:18
you know, it does make it look like you’re drinking something a little special.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:21
All right. let’s give it a smell. Oh. Hmm.

John Puma: 14:27
You got that, uh, Steamed rice is where I’m at. Steamed, a little sweet rice, steamed and a little sweet. It’s kind of like, I’m beginning to realize that when we have like futsushus on the show or, or you’re kind of, um, you’re, you’re lesser milled, um, Junmai or Honjozo, you often get that. And It’s like kind of like classic um, for that style. It’s like a classic aroma for that style.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:55
That’s a hundred percent correct. Yeah. Yeah. There’s a little bit of that steamed rice as you correctly identified. There’s also a hint of ethanol too. There’s a little hint of alcohol aroma, which you can expect with Futsushu, just a touch, um, which is totally on, on

John Puma: 15:17
On brand

Timothy Sullivan: 15:18
for Futsushu.

John Puma: 15:20
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:21
but this is,, really convenient. Now the little plastic cover can be put back on if you don’t finish it all and it can be stored in the fridge. So, uh, because you have the feel peel off foil, it doesn’t mean you’re stuck drinking the whole thing in one go if you don’t want to. So there is that outer plastic lid. It looks like a mini iced coffee lid. It’s like a clear plastic.

John Puma: 15:46
Yeah. I wouldn’t necessarily, um, travel with this after you’ve opened it and put the lid. on. It’s not quite ready.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:55
yeah, it’s, it would definitely leak if you shook it around.

John Puma: 15:59
Oh Yeah. absolutely.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:00
All right. Well, I’m ready to give this a taste. Here we go.

John Puma: 16:05
Sounds like a plan to me. Let’s do it. Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:10
Hmm.

John Puma: 16:12
That’s nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:13
Those rice notes definitely carry over. Now there’s a tasting note on the, side of this cup. I don’t know if you

John Puma: 16:23
There is,

Timothy Sullivan: 16:24
It says, bursting with hints of green grape and juicy watermelon.

John Puma: 16:32
far be it from me to debate the, distributor, but I I don’t I don’t know if I’m getting a whole lot of that from this. I’m enjoying it, but I don’t know. It’s a, to me, I just feel it’s so very, um, rice forward. And to me, that’s like the prevailing. flavor when I sip on this. Now that you’re looking for the green grape, perhaps, and the watermelon. are you finding it?

Timothy Sullivan: 17:00
I will say I’ve had other sakes that are more green grape watermelon. to my palate than this.

John Puma: 17:07
don’t know.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:08
But, uh, yeah, I agree with you. For me, there’s that classic rice forward taste. It’s a little bit heavier. This isn’t super light. It’s, it’s a little bit richer and full and, um, it does have that rice forward and a little bit richer taste. Now, this doesn’t have, you know, we’ve tasted some sakes we’ve called ricey, and it was kind of like a rice pudding lactic character, but this doesn’t have that.

John Puma: 17:43
I just, uh, experimented with putting the lid on. I would definitely not shake this up with the lid on. It’s very, uh, The lid is a little precarious. I’m glad it’s there! Um, but it’s a little, you know. That’s a little precarious.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:59
Yeah, so this, this has some boldness, and I just had a thought that, like many futsu shus, I think this would be really interesting if we warmed it up.

John Puma: 18:11
Maybe you’ll get some green grape watermelon when you do. I feel like rice comes out more when you warm it up. I do think so. Mine is cold. been recording for about 20 minutes, so it’s probably been out of the fridge for about half an hour. Uh, so it’s, it’s chilled, but not, not super cold. And I think it’s a great temperature for this. It’s like, it’s really doing a great job. It’s very sippable, very relaxing. I’m sure that it probably would, would do well with food as well. but I think you probably are absolutely right though, and that we should, um, consider in the future, warming this up a little bit and seeing what happens because, you know, I think you have a good point. this sort of thing tends to lend itself to, to being warmed hot! Mmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:59
Yeah. When you warm up a futsushu, often when you sip on it, you get that, I often describe it as like that hot toddy sensation where it just kind of warms you. the, the the alcohol notes come forward a little bit and it just kind of warms you from the inside out. Uh, that sensation, that is really nice in the winter time. and, I also think that, warming it brings out more umami when, now this rice is polished to 70 percent remaining, And when you don’t polish down to really small sizes, you have more of the proteins on the rice grain that make it into the sake, and that gives you more umami and savoriness. When you warm up the sake, I feel it brings out those savory notes even more. The lighter fruity floral notes tend to dissipate more quickly when you warm a sake and those more rice-y earthy umami notes remain and get highlighted when you warm a sake. So I find that if, if, I’m, I would imagine if we warmed this up, we would probably get a little more umami and that warming hot toddy feeling from the sake, which can be very nice in the winter

John Puma: 20:11
Mm hmm. I have to say like whenever we do this funky packaging I think at least this is at least our second Futsushu And i’m always surprised because I think that like futsu shu gets a bad rap and uh, cause it’s all the world is not premium. And so people, I think include myself included, get ideas in their head about non premium sake. And, uh, yeah, I’m like, I’m like, no, this is like, non premium sake is not a, not a dirty word. Table sake is not a pejorative term, apparently,

Timothy Sullivan: 20:41
according to some.

John Puma: 20:42
according to some yes. But Yeah, I’m, I’m really enjoying this.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:47
yeah, it’s really, really interesting. we should also talk about the sustainability of this cup too.

John Puma: 20:54
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:55
Now the, when you

John Puma: 20:57
What do we know about the sustainability of

Timothy Sullivan: 20:59
well, glass, glass, and. Aluminum are also recyclable and sustainable in their own way. But one thing that comes across with this is how portable and how light it is. Like, this is incredibly light. It would be, uh, easy to recycle, I imagine, and transportation costs are a big part of the ecological burden of any goods that have to be shipped. And if you’ve ever carried a case of sake through Haneda Airport, you know how heavy those bottles can be,

John Puma: 21:35
I can’t say I have Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:40
Yeah, so

John Puma: 21:41
I’m guessing you have

Timothy Sullivan: 21:42
I have glass, glass bottles are heavy. So when I picked this up, I was like, Oh, this is, you know, they put just enough reinforcement inside the paper to like make it, uh, solid and it doesn’t feel like it’s going to collapse if you give it a little squeeze, but it, it seems like this would be easy to recycle light to transport and. I just had a little spill

John Puma: 22:10
Oh, no.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:11
with my lid on.

John Puma: 22:12
I was about to say, were you testing the boundaries of the lid? Do we now know what, what you can and cannot do?

Timothy Sullivan: 22:18
you cannot tilt it to the side.

John Puma: 22:21
Oh, no.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:22
Yeah. So I, I picked this up and I think it’s, it’s got a nice light feel to it, but would not be that heavy to transport. Um,

John Puma: 22:34
We did our funky packaging with the, the Lucky Dog sake, which was also a paper that had a coating on it. Um, and as you pointed out about this, this feels more sturdy than that to me. Like, this is like, you know, has more, definitely has more structural integrity to it. And I don’t know if it’s because of the shape of it being, you know, a Almost a cone. And or if it’s just that they just made it, you know, they gave it extra layers because if I recall correctly from lucky Dog, they were they layered it up to to get there and here it’s a little bit more a little bit more I mean, it’s definitely definitely feels more sturdy.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:19
I think the inner lining, the plastic that is on the inside of the cup is pretty thick, and I think that gives it the stability. When we’re done enjoying our sake, we’ll have to rip this cup apart and find out what’s on the

John Puma: 23:33
And do a deep dive. Mm hmm. Mm

Timothy Sullivan: 23:36
No, I think, I think the plastic inner lining of the cup, uh, keeps it rigid, and probably, You know, protects the sake from, uh, exposure to light. Cause it’s solid. The design is solid on the outside. The plastic is clear on the inside and then you got the foil on the top. So, um, that definitely helps keep it protected, but yeah, I’m pretty sure it’s that plastic lining on the inside.

John Puma: 24:09
Yeah, probably, you’re probably right about that. It’s interesting though, if you, if you hold up the, uh, if you hold up the cup, like, with a light source, um, on the outside and you look on the, inside, you can see through it. Uh, and you will see the, the graffiti art right there. Which is really, uh, surprising and interesting, because we talked about how, how sturdy it feels because of that lining on the inside. That lining on the inside is almost transparent.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:34
hmm.

John Puma: 24:35
Really cool. Like this is a, this is a well made cup. I’m a fan. And, um, and I think The point you were trying to make earlier is that, you know, paper is light, paper is recyclable. So it’s nice. It’s easy to deal with.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:50
and, when the, when the foil top is still intact, you can just throw these in your bag And go on a picnic or something like that, which is the same thing we said for the, the lucky dog cup. It’s like a very mobile way of getting around. When you throw your sake bottles in your bag, you have to like be really careful with them, but these paper cups are pretty good for on the go sake sipping. I

John Puma: 25:20
Yeah. To me, it’s like, this is sort of a little bit of a classic. do you remember when you first had this?

Timothy Sullivan: 25:25
think, it’s been around since like 2016 or so.

John Puma: 25:29
Yeah. I think, I think at least, for me, I was in, like a bar arcade in Lexington, Kentucky. And they had, like they, they had like on the, chalkboard, like we were all at the beers, they had sake. I was like, Oh, they have sake. And it was like Joto cup. I was like, Oh, I know joto. I don’t know the, joto cup. What is that all about? And so I got it. And I was like, this is lovely! I’m able to just, like, walk around this arcade with this cup of sake. This is so, uh, convenient. yeah, it was a good time. it’s really nice to see sake in places you don’t expect to see sake. Like, that’s like a, always puts a smile on my face when I’m able to, to get some sake. In a, in a place that’s not a restaurant or, you know, specifically not a japanese restaurant. Like, it’s really nice to see sake in, in places like that. We should maybe, maybe, we need to do an episode one day about, you know, we call out places that do sake that are not stereotypical. That would be fun. I think that’s like something that should be celebrated and I think that’s like an awesome thing for, it’s a win for sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:31
You know, this, I think designs like the label that this has and the format this has makes that more possible. I think if You walked into the arcade with like a traditional seven 20 ML of sake with

John Puma: 26:45
like walking around the

Timothy Sullivan: 26:46
With a kanji label, it’s just not the format that’s going to fly there. So this is the, this funky packaging is thinking outside of the box and it makes a placement in a place like an arcade or something like that more possible. So that’s really a success in my book.

John Puma: 27:03
Yeah, totally, totally.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:04
Well, I think we’ve successfully funkified another episode with our funky

John Puma: 27:11
Funkified. Yes, we did.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:14
John, we, keep, we keep saying we’re going to run out of funky packaging, but it hasn’t happened yet.

John Puma: 27:20
I don’t know. I just keep coming up with more. I’m not complaining. I’m very pleased that we, uh, that we’re, we’re finding an endless stream of, uh, of funk.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:30
well, They keep, popping up. So as long as the funky packaging keeps showing up, we’ll keep reporting on it. Right, John?

John Puma: 27:38
Oh yes. We, when, when, funky packaging drops, look to sake. Revolution. We’re here for it.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:45
Alright, well John, it was great to taste with you and it was fun to taste something in such unique and stylish packaging. Really fun. Um, and, uh, I want to

John Puma: 27:57
And again, really damn tasty. This is really nice sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:01
Absolutely. I’m still looking for that watermelon, but,

John Puma: 28:06
The search for watermelon.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:09
but it is really enjoyable and, Uh, uh, something that we do have to play around with the temperature next time. Really fun. All right. Well, uh, great to taste with you, John, and Thanks to all our listeners. for tuning in today. We hope you enjoyed our show and a special hello and thank you to all of our supporters. If you, would like to join in support of Sake Revolution, the best way to do that is to join our community on Patreon. We’re a listener supported show and the support we receive from our patrons Allows us to host, edit, and produce this podcast if you’d like to join, visit Patreon.com/SakeRevolution.

John Puma: 28:51
always, always, but especially today, you need to visit the, uh, website, SakeRevolution.Com, so you can check out the show notes because again, we can, we can tell you about this sake cup all day, but you got take a look at this graffiti. It’s really nice. the art is, it is art. It is really good. Graffiti is art, by the way. and also when you, have time, take a moment and review our show. On your podcast platform of choice. So if you’re listening to us on Apple podcast that’s where you’re going to do it. Spotify, Charitable, all of those fun things. We really do appreciate the shout out. It does help the show. Without any further ado, please raise your wonderfully graffiti paper cups. Remember to keep drinking sake and Kampai!

Episode 176. With 2024 over and done, it’s time to take a look back at the sake year that was. Join us this week for some casual sipping and some discussion on the highlights, surprises and challenges of this past year’s sake adventures. Tim and John both let us know their favorite episodes from the past year and we also take a guess at the most downloaded episode from 2024. It’s also the moment of truth to review our “Sake Revolution Resolutions” – Did we achieve our goals? Whatever the outcome, we look forward to another year of great sake and many kanpais. Wishing you good sake in 2025! #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Hosts Welcome and Introduction
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 8:23 Sake Revolution Resolutions

---

Skip to: 21:35 Sake tasting: Kudoki Jozu Junmai Ginjo

Kudoki Jozu Junmai Ginjo

Brewery: Kamenoi Shuzo
Alcohol: 16.0%
Classification: Junmai Ginjo
Prefecture: Yamagata
Rice: U.S. Miyamanishiki
Brand: Kudoki Jozu
Seimaibuai: 50%
SMV: 0.0
Acidity: 1.2

---

Skip to: 02:18 Sake tasting: Emishiki World Peace Junmai Ginjo

Emishiki World Peace Junmai Ginjo

Brewery: Emishiki Shuzo
Alcohol: 16.0%
Classification: Junmai Ginjo
Prefecture: Shiga
Brand: Emishiki
Seimaibuai: 50%
SMV: -7.0

---

Skip to: 30:34 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Support us on Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:22
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s First Sake Podcast, and I’m your host, John Puma, from the Sake Notes. Also, I’m The administrator over at the Internet Sake Discord. And I also run the Reddit r slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:39
And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a sake samurai, I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center, and I’m also the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake, and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:56
Well, hello there, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:57
Happy New Year, John!

John Puma: 0:59
Happy new year. It is, it is 20 and 25. We’re here. We’re doing it

Timothy Sullivan: 1:05
hard to believe, but it is 2025 and we have a new year of Sake Revolution ahead of us. And as we are want to do, we’re going to take a look back at last year and look forward to this year. And I like these episodes. It’s a kind of a fresh start. What do you think?

John Puma: 1:25
And I mean, I usually like these episodes, but I, you know, we’ll get to that in a minute. Anyway,

Timothy Sullivan: 1:34
Yeah, so what we usually do for our year in review episode is talk a little bit about, uh, the episodes we released, maybe some reactions to them, and we have our famous, or maybe infamous, Revolution resolutions every year. Infamous. Mmm.

John Puma: 1:56
yeah, yeah, we do. We absolutely have. I have information in front of me. I imagine you have similar information in front of you. You probably have more information for you right now because I know for a fact that you went and looked at the stats and I resisted the urge so that I would not be feigning surprise. That’d all be authentic.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:17
That’s right. So, looking back at 2024, uh, do you have any idea, any guess what our most listened to episode of 2024 was?

John Puma: 2:30
So I’m taking a look. And so most listen to it. So that, you know, the older ones have an advantage because they’ve been around the longest. So I want to say sake and cheese.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:45
Ooh, that’s a very good guess, but that’s wrong

John Puma: 2:48
Oh, oh, you know, I was, maybe I was being hopeful. Because, you Myshell was on that episode. So you want to, you want, you want, you want things to be good for her. Uh, yeah. Okay. So that’s not, it’s not that one. So, uh, which one is it?

Timothy Sullivan: 3:02
So, the most listened to episode of 2024 was Serious Baggage, Bringing Back Sake from Japan. So that was our suitcase import episode, uh, episode 163.

John Puma: 3:15
No kidding. Wow. I am legitimately surprised. I did not see that coming. It’s an older one. So it does have that advantage of time. Uh, and it is a fun topic and a lot of people are going to Japan. I think in 2025, they are expecting to break the record. Okay. Again, because I think they broke it in 2024, uh, for, for tourists. And I love the idea that people are going to Japan and wanting to bring back sake. Cause I think that that converts into people who, when they get here, want to drink sake here. Right. Does that make sense? Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:53
And, I mean, I think you’re 100 percent right. When you look at it, the number of people who are traveling to Japan, I get emails regularly from people, from students, from friends of friends, from colleagues who are like, Oh, I’m going to Japan for the first time. I want a sake experience while I’m there. What should I do?

John Puma: 4:11
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:12
all the time. So it’s, it’s great. And I think that really ties into that episode being popular.

John Puma: 4:18
Great. Now I have a question for you. We don’t have to go too in depth in it, but do you have like a standard response to that? Or do you then have follow up questions that like, well, what are you into? Have you had sake before? That kind of stuff?

Timothy Sullivan: 4:33
I do not, I do not have any follow up questions. I have a Google Doc

John Puma: 4:37
Okay. You’ve got the doc. All right. is it a, is it a, like a Google like map or is it just like a list?

Timothy Sullivan: 4:44
it is just a list. And it’s just Tokyo and Kyoto, which is where most people go on their first trip. And I just list, this is a bar I recommend. This is a retail shop I recommend. Uh, this is a high end restaurant I recommend. And You know, if you’re in Tokyo and you want to visit a brewery, I recommend this place. So it’s like, uh, you know, it’s, it’s my greatest hits. Um, but it’s things that are easy to get to on, not off the beaten path at all. And, you know, uh, it’s just easy to have it all in one doc. So I just send that to people and say, here’s, here’s what I recommend. It’s very, very, very, uh, good idea.

John Puma: 5:24
Excellent. Nice. I like it. I’m going to have to take a look at that list and you know, see how I feel about, uh, what you’ve decided, what you’ve decided to recommend to people and when, what, what heavy hitters have made the list, which ones got left out? I need the answers to this, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:42
Yes, well, maybe we should I think that’s a great topic for a future episode like Tim and John’s personal Japan

John Puma: 5:50
we curate the list. Oh, I love it. And we can make like an official sake revolution list. Oh I love it when the ideas just write themselves. Uh, so, so that, so we have the most listened to episode of the year. That’s great. Uh, what other fun tidbits did you learn? Oh, well,

Timothy Sullivan: 6:13
Well, I also wanted to ask you, regardless of downloads, what is your favorite episode from 2024, John?

John Puma: 6:23
Honestly, I think my favorite episode is probably the Kikusui Funaguchi Smart Pouch episode, Funky Packaging, episode 167, because it was just so silly and so much fun to do. It was one of our first Funky Packaging episodes, and just the idea of this giant, Capri Sun pouch was just, it was, it was ridiculous and fun to have in the house. It was ridiculous and fun to pour out of. Uh, I just had a really good time with that one. I, I laughed and laughed and laughed. What about you?

Timothy Sullivan: 7:01
Well, I think that my favorite episode of the year was Sake Revolution Live from Brooklyn Kura.

John Puma: 7:09
right. Okay. I feel like that’s cheating, but okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:12
Why, why is it cheating?

John Puma: 7:14
I know it’s not cheating because I didn’t think of it first.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:19
Yeah, I mean, doing the live episode with Shinobu from Katosake Works, Brandon from Brooklyn Kura, it was a whole lot of work, but we had a live audience, and we had a lot of fun, and it was great getting that immediate feedback, and I just loved it! So that was, that was my favorite episode.

John Puma: 7:40
there is something special about having a live audience. I will say that is, um, it’s different. No offense to, to being on the zoom with you, Tim, but I think that there is definitely something special about being in a room with, with, uh, dozens of fans.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:00
Yeah, and Brandon and Shinobu were so Funny right off the cuff, you know, they’re so entertaining and it was not like any crafty editing work on our part. It was just their, their genuine personalities really came through and getting the audience reactions on audio was also really great. Yeah. And that was episode 173 for anyone who wants to go back and listen.

John Puma: 8:27
Yeah, highly recommended. That was a lot of fun.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:31
Right on.

John Puma: 8:32
So I guess now is the time that I’ve kind of been dreading the sake, the accountability, accountability. Don’t we all hate that now? Um, yeah. Um, accountability. And I gotta, I gotta pay the piper, I think. But let’s, let’s overview here. For 2024, we both made Sake Revolution Resolutions. yours was to do some live shows. And we accomplished that. With your favorite show of the year, which is great. Now it makes a little more sense. That was your favorite show of the year too.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:11
Yes. So my revolution resolution for 2024, as you just said, was to do a live show and we made it happen. I had this vision for a long time to be on the stage in the tap room at Brooklyn Kura, and we made it happen. I wasn’t sure how it was going to work. And I actually have a behind the scenes tidbit that I have not told you, John, that yes, I ha I’ve been holding onto a secret about recording

John Puma: 9:41
Mm hmm. I’m

Timothy Sullivan: 9:42
And the secret is that when we finished recording, I downloaded the episode and everything was fine. But I looked at the memory card, and we were about six minutes away from running out of space, if we had gone longer.

John Puma: 10:00
hmm. Ah, so a near, a near disaster, but, but no disaster.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:04
there was no disaster, but it was, there was a near disaster,

John Puma: 10:08
That would have been bad.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:10
I sometimes, like, bolt up in bed in the middle of the night sweating, thinking about, like, running out of space during a live recording. So that’ll never happen again, but, uh, disaster was averted. However, uh, it was still my favorite episode, even if I have PTSD from, uh, discovering after the fact that we almost ran out of space on the memory card.

John Puma: 10:33
Well, I’m glad we didn’t run out of space for them to record. Can you imagine going through and doing that whole episode and finding out it wasn’t recorded?

Timothy Sullivan: 10:42
That, that is stuff of my literal nightmares. Like that is, that is so scary, but, but we dodged a bullet and it won’t happen again because now I’m, I’m scared into triple checking every time we record. But,

John Puma: 10:55
excellent.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:56
yes, yes. So, uh, that was my resolution and resolution achieved.

John Puma: 11:03
Woo hoo! good for you. I’m glad you achieved yours. my resolution, on the other hand

Timothy Sullivan: 11:10
So I went to the videotape, John.

John Puma: 11:12
Hm? Yep.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:14
John’s resolution from 2024 was to do some sake, formal sake education that involved a certificate of some kind.

John Puma: 11:25
Yeah. That didn’t happen.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:27
I’m I’m, guessing from your lead up

John Puma: 11:32
Hm.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:32
that was not achieved. So what do you think? What do you think happened, JP?

John Puma: 11:37
Um, I think I misjudged how much, like, regular life stuff was going to take place this year, and I didn’t, uh, I didn’t focus, and I didn’t I, I Didn’t get it done. I did not get it done. Makes me sad. I, um, I wish I did. I feel bad. I feel real bad that I didn’t get it done. But, I feel that, still do this in 2025. It’s not like I, you know, lost the ability to, to learn about sake. I just, I need to make it a priority

Timothy Sullivan: 12:09
Hmm.

John Puma: 12:10
and do it. Um, you know, I wish I did, uh, but I didn’t, but I can always, you know, I will never forgive myself if I continue to not do this. So I need to do this. I need to make sure this happens.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:22
Well, I might’ve said this when you made that resolution, but you do have a, you do have a buddy who technically is a sake teacher and does give certificates. So

John Puma: 12:32
Technically, technically,

Timothy Sullivan: 12:35
you, you, you literally, you, you know, you know, a guy, you

John Puma: 12:39
I do know a guy, I do know a guy. And I, and I should have, I should have called upon you for that. And I, I did not, there’s a lot of, there’s a lot of what a could a should is about this one, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:51
So I guess that leads us to the question of, are you going to, Repeat for 2025 or do you want to go in a different direction?

John Puma: 13:02
Well, um, for 2025. I’m going to try and double up, so to speak. So, I feel like this still needs to happen. Uh, it is 2024’s resolution that is still dangling and needs to be addressed., but I think that 2025 should potentially have its own resolution. have its its own resolution.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:26
Now, when you say double up, that made me think of getting two certificates in

John Puma: 13:30
No, no, no, no, no, no, no. no. I mean, two resolutions. Um, yeah, yeah, two resolutions, uh, is what I’m looking to do. and so one of them is, is a holdover where we’re going to try to get that, try to get that certificate. and then the second one, well, we’ll, we’ll wait until we’re talking about 2025, which I guess, It’s a great segue. How about that? so yeah, for 2025, my goal, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a comparably easy one, but I want to, record, and by that I mean, jot down, take a photo, something of every single sake that I have this year.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:16
Oh my God. That is, that’s not easy. That’s, that’s a

John Puma: 14:20
doable. It’s doable. We

Timothy Sullivan: 14:22
Yes.

John Puma: 14:24
have a camera in our pocket. So this is possible. It’s definitely something one can do.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:31
It’s possible. when I was a newbie, young, little sake nerd out there in the world, I tried to do that. And I know that if you go to a sake event and you have one, two, three, maybe more sakes, it gets increasingly difficult to remember to get the camera out and get non blurry photos of the Haha,

John Puma: 14:56
Uh, I never said that pictures would be in focus, number one, and I also never said they would all be photos. I just need to have a record of some sort. So if I, if I go someplace and I have something and nobody told me what it was, I needed to write down, like, some, I don’t know what this was. It counts.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:12
All right. I support you. I support you in that resolution. I think that’s wonderful.

John Puma: 15:18
I will have you know, as we record this, I’ve, um, I’ve gotten off to a decent start on this. I’ve only decided that that’s what I’m going to do a few days ago, and so I’ve been doing it since then. So, you know, we’ll see how it goes. Hopefully I can make this happen. Even, I think even if I can get the majority, it’ll be great.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:36
so are you going to be keeping a tasting notebook or a Google photo album? The only reason I ask is because I want to hold your feet to the fire and I want to get the accountability piece. So how can we, how can we view this? Hmm.

John Puma: 15:53
to be, for the moment, it’s gonna be just a photo album, uh, as much as I can. And then in some cases, if I need to just make like a, yeah, make a note at some place, that’ll be a different thing. I’m worried about what happens when I go to Japan. That’s because things get out of hand there in a hurry. And like, joy of sake, that can become a little fraught.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:13
Oh, yeah. I think we can give you a pass on a few occasions. You can

John Puma: 16:17
I got I got two day passes.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:19
you get two day pass. Yes. And I know from, uh, John Puma’s days as the sake notes in full swing, you are a very gifted photographer of sake bottles

John Puma: 16:30
Yeah, um, you know, with with a real camera, I I’ve never been able to replicate that with a phone, unfortunately. But I also I also want to get more into that, to be completely honest. I want to get back into, uh, into photographing the bottles in a, in a fun way. I think I do, or I think I did have a, uh, a knack for that. I miss it a little bit. Maybe that should have been my resolution was just right to take more photos of sake bottles. I said, I had to go all in on this. What are you going to do?

Timothy Sullivan: 17:01
Well, that sounds like a great revolution resolution for 2025, and you’ve got double trouble this year, JP, so

John Puma: 17:11
Yeah. Yeah. But that enough about me, um, and my failures and, and my attempts at, uh, At Redemption,

Timothy Sullivan: 17:20
Redemption. Yes.

John Puma: 17:21
about you? What are you doing for 2025?

Timothy Sullivan: 17:23
Okay, so my resolution for 2025, I’m calling it Back to Basics.

John Puma: 17:30
Mm.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:31
So, I think back to our very first episodes that we did on this podcast, and we covered a lot of topics that are really good for beginners. And I’ve listened back to some of those episodes, and I honestly think we should revisit some, uh, episodes that we did at the beginning, introducing basic concepts. I think we’re a little more comfortable podcasters now, we have some more sake and life experience under our belt, and I think that we could do some, revisiting of really important, back to basic episodes, and, that’s my goal for this year is to, re examine some of our Sake 101 episodes, and see if we can breathe any fresh perspectives into them and bring a few back to the pod this year.

John Puma: 18:22
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. So it’s a sake 201? Or 102 maybe? I don’t know. We’re just

Timothy Sullivan: 18:30
just, you know, things like talking about nigori or what junmai is, or aruten, alcohol added sake. Like, I think we did really good. Basic comprehensive episodes on those but there’s a few that I think we could add some more to revisit and just look at in A fresh light from five years down the road. Yeah

John Puma: 18:53
It’s been five years, hasn’t it? Oh my goodness.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:56
It has been five years, yeah, so That is my resolution

John Puma: 19:01
Excellent. Uh, well, I’m glad, I’m glad that we’ve got this figured out and we know what we’re going to be trying to do. and, you know, this is an episode of Sake Revolution and we would not, it would not be proper for us to, to do this without tasting some sake. So we need to get on that, Tim. we have, we have each brought a bottle of sake that we’re going to independently taste. So Tim does not have what I’m having and I do not have what Tim’s having, but I’m relatively confident that we have both had what one another having at one point or another.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:37
Yes. And the sakes that we picked, uh, this was dealer’s choice. And the sakes that we picked either tie to our 2024 in some way or tie to our hopes for 2025. So, uh, if you’ll allow me, John, I’ll go ahead and kick off the tasting. So, the sake that I have brought with me is a sake from Sake Revolution, episode From episode number two, uh, I brought one of our all time favorites back from episode two. This is Kudoki Jozu Junmai Ginjo, and this is from Kaminoe Shuzo. And they’re in Yamagata Prefecture. this is a sake that you and I both love and have tasted many times together. And one of the fun Throwbacks to episode two was all the fun names we came up with to translate Kudoki Jozu into English. Kudoki Jozu good at flirting or skillful at flirting or lover boy or whatever you want to say. and it was just such a fun episode and this ties in with my back to basics idea that I want to look at those early episodes we did, see if we can revisit any of them and bring a little bit more to the table. So I’m going to be tasting. Kudoki Jozu

John Puma: 21:05
sounds great. I’ve got, a sake that I’ve, I’ve been a big fan of for a long time, but until relatively recently was this one was not available in the U. S. Um, and it is now. So I took full advantage of this, of this, I took full advantage of this new change and I have, Emishki’s World Peace, because why don’t we all like some peace? in 2025. Um, in the

Timothy Sullivan: 21:32
Yes. Make mine a double.

John Puma: 21:35
Okay. Uh, yeah. So, um, that’s what I’ve got. And, Tim, you want to give us the stats on your Kudoki Jozu? Josu?

Timothy Sullivan: 21:46
Yes. So this is Kudoki from Kaminoe Shuzo in Yamagata. we have a classification of Junmai Ginjo. The SMV or sake meter value is plus one. The acidity is 1. 2. And we have an alcohol percentage of 16. 5%.

John Puma: 22:07
for my Imishiki world peace, Imishiki Brewing Company over in Shiga Prefecture. This is a Junmai ginjo, genshu. the rice variety is Yamada Nishiki. That’s been milled down to 50%. They’re using Hanakobo on this one, Tim. So a flower yeast. I tried to get some more information, dig a little deeper into what kind of flour. That didn’t go very far. So, flower yeast. SMV, that measure of dry to sweet, is minus 7. So it’s going to be a little sweet. Acidity is 1. 6, which is a little high. So it might balance out the sweetness. And the alcohol percentage is 16%.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:48
Alrighty. So I’m going to go ahead and open mine up first and get it in the glass.

John Puma: 23:02
Ooh, that pour was delightful, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:05
All poured.

John Puma: 23:08
Let me, let me catch up to you.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:17
So this is very clear in the glass. And when I smell this sake, it honestly is like meeting an old friend. It is like a sake I’ve had many times, often with you. And it is, uh, fruity, light, quite balanced. It’s got, some pineapple, a little bit of melon, classic ginjo aromas, and I’m going to give it a taste. Hmm. So delightful. I wish you were here with me, John. So we could both drink this. Cause I know you love it.

John Puma: 23:51
I do.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:53
And this is just like classic textbook Yamagata sake, fruity. Light to medium bodied, great balance, not a trace of bitterness or sharpness, round, clean on the finish, and lovely, lovely ginjo fruits. Like, this is the textbook example of what a light Yamagata sake is all about, right?

John Puma: 24:19
Yeah, I mean that’s, that’s how I remember it. At least.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:22
Yeah.

John Puma: 24:24
Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan: 24:25
Yeah, so this is absolutely delicious, and I think that this bottle will disappear quickly. After the

John Puma: 24:33
That’s, that’s The, um, the countdown has begun.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:41
Yes. That’s another prediction for 2025.

John Puma: 24:44
this bottle of kudoki jozu goes, it will not last the day. Um, so I’ve got my world peace. I’ve got it in my glass and on the nose. This is this Tim, this is fruit salad. It is, um, the nose is just purely, um, a wonderful fruit salad. You know, if you ever had, uh, if you’ve ever been to like a little buffet and they’ve got the little fruit salad and you take a little bit, you put it in your bowl and you go back to your, you go back to your seat, give it a nice little sniff. This is it. So I’m, I’m a big fan of that, of that kind of aroma. It’s not a fruit bomb, but fruit salad,

Timothy Sullivan: 25:21
Yeah. It says that it uses flower yeast. So I’m curious if there are any floral notes in addition to fruitiness on the aroma. I haven’t had it recently.

John Puma: 25:33
not a ton to me. I, I think that the, um, the fruit is, is kind of dominant. And it’s the, it’s a, um, you, you know how when, when fruit salad’s been, been sitting there, it kind of gets a little bit more, it gets sweeter. Like the aroma gets a little bit more, aggressive, a little more like, um,

Timothy Sullivan: 25:52
I would say, I would say concentrated,

John Puma: 25:55
Concentrated. Ah, yeah, I like that. That’s a good way to put it. And it’s, yeah, it’s like, it’s, it’s like that. It’s got all of your, you know, your, your, your, your cantaloupe, your honeydew, um, almost a little cherry in there too. Really nice. Oh, wow. And then the sip is, um, it’s delivering on that promise.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:16
Hmm.

John Puma: 26:18
but it’s got a little bit more, it’s got a little more body than I was expecting. So the, the, the aroma had me thinking just this, this, you know, this wild fruit salad situation. When I sip on it, it’s, it’s, it’s still very fruity, still very sweet. Some more of that, some more of that floral comes out on the, um, on the palate. Uh, and I do think If this wasn’t, if the acidity wasn’t so high on this, it’s not that high, but it’s higher. I think it would be kind of overpoweringly sweet, but it’s, it’s luckily it’s balanced out nicely. You know, one of the things we always like to say on the show about, about sake, when we see these numbers is, is it balanced? And then the answer here to me is that it is. It’s a, you know, great sake is always about balance. I think they did a nice job with this.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:08
Yes. Well, I also want to say that, like, what a great name for that sake too, World Peace.

John Puma: 27:13
Yeah. I think that, Tim, my favorite Kudoki Jozu translation from back when we originally did this was the, uh, the, the Google translate flirtation with Mac Daddy, as a, as a translation for good at flirting. Unfortunately, or fortunately, uh, translations have come a long way since then,

Timothy Sullivan: 27:40
Hmm.

John Puma: 27:41
no longer, uh, what Google thinks. I’m actually trying to find what it actually says right now, kudouki, jouzu, Good at persuasion is what Google’s saying now.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:01
That’s, that’s really come down from Mac Daddy.

John Puma: 28:05
good at persuasion. I think they’re trying to be politically correct.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:09
Hmm.

John Puma: 28:12
Hmm. I

Timothy Sullivan: 28:13
It’s like, jozu means like skilled at, or you know, good at. So I always said like, skilled, skilled at flirting is kind of the way I’ve always thought about it. But yeah,

John Puma: 28:27
I think that works.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:31
AI is never going to understand

John Puma: 28:32
Nope, it never will. As I’m, as I am sipping on the world peace a little bit, I have a little word of advice for those sipping on their world peace at home, perhaps. Um, have the sake cold. It’s, as it’s warming up, it’s getting more, um, the flavor is becoming a little more cloying. It’s becoming a little bit more thicker. it’s, this is definitely something that, you know, I think that when you have something a little more chilly, uh, it, it, you know, the flavor becomes a little more restrained and this is a sake that benefits from that restraint.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:08
Hmm. Yeah. When you think about fruit salad juice, like the, the liquid on fruit salad, uh, that can get a little bit sticky sweet. And I can understand how like keeping the sake well chilled makes it crisp and a little brighter. Yeah.

John Puma: 29:27
Sticky sweet. That’s a really Excellent way to put this. That’s what I’m getting out of this.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:32
Yeah.

John Puma: 29:33
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:35
All right, John. So, uh, are you hopeful about 2025 in your double trouble resolution?

John Puma: 29:41
think I might have dug myself a little bit of a ditch. But the good thing about having two Count them. Two resolutions is that it’s a little bit easier to do one. So

Timothy Sullivan: 29:53
Okay. Is this, is this like reverse psychology for

John Puma: 29:59
I don’t know. It might be, uh, but I’m, I’m hoping that, yeah, I’m hoping I can, I can make this happen. We’re going to find out. We’re going to find out as the year rolls on.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:12
yes, I am. I have visions of a redemption arc for John Puma in 2025. Well, I’ll meet you back here in one year, 2026 January, and I’m looking forward to it.

John Puma: 30:30
God help me. Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:34
All right. Well, John, it was great to taste with you so much fun to taste a couple of sakes and look back on last year, look forward to this year, and I always enjoy our year in review episodes. So great to taste with you. And I also want to say a special thank you and hello to all of our patrons. Without you, Sake Revolution would not be possible. And we wish you the best for this new year as well. If you would like to become a patron and support our work here at Sake Revolution, please visit Patreon.com/SakeRevolution to learn more.

John Puma: 31:10
And, uh, if you would like to support Sake Revolution, another thing you can do is get on your platform of choice and talk about us. Leave us a review. If you are on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, probably, those are probably the two big ones these days, I think. I think, uh, some of the other stuff we used to talk about for this, uh, may be a little outdated. Tim, you’re, you’re modernizing the podcast ideas, uh, Rubbing off on me. Um, so, so yeah, uh, get over there and, um, defeat the algorithm by talking about your favorite sake podcast. so, without any further ado, uh, for the first time in 2025, at least for this show, please raise your glass, remember to keep drinking sake, and kanpai!

Episode 175. Join us this week for another wide-ranging sake interview. We are welcoming Lucas Smolic, the founder of the Sake Brewers Guild, to the podcast. Lucas started in engineering but found his way to sake which evolved into a deep passion for sake brewing. This inspired the development of the Sake Brewers Guild with its mission to make learning the skills of sake brewing accessible to all. Among other things, we discovered that the Guild is supporting and connecting sake brewers on ALL SEVEN continents (yes, including Antarctica!). As we chat, we taste a savory Tokubetsu Honjozo from Takeda Shuzo – a brewery in Niigata, Japan that welcomed Lucas for an internship. If you’ve ever considered giving sake brewing a go yourself, this episode is not to be missed! #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 01:55 Interview: Lucas Smolic

Profile – Lucas Smolic
Lucas is the Founder of the Sake Brewers Guild (BrewSake.org), an online portal that fosters a global community of craft sake producers and assists with technical resources and training as well as providing Sake brewing seminars, materials for learning and sake brewing recipes. Lucas has experience brewing and several Sake Breweries including Origami, Farthest Star, Islander, Wetland Sake, and Takeda Shuzo in Niigata Japan.

He has created this community for commercial brewers and home brewers to discuss their challenges and achievements in a supportive setting with others who can relate. Join up at: https://www.brewsake.org/join-the-guild

Lucas’ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/junmai_gaijinjo/

Lucas also runs a seminar series on youtube which is invaluable to anyone looking to learn more about the technical side of sake brewing! Watch a sample video here:

About The Sake Brewers Guild
The Sake Brewers Guild is a global community of craft sake producers who provide the technical resources and training required to carry on this 2000-year-old tradition while fostering a vibrant and inclusive discussion. Their vision is that learning to make high-quality sake should be open and accessible to everyone and they are on a mission to Create an inclusive organization focused on advancing sake brewing best practices by teaching and supporting technical excellence, facilitating an open exchange of knowledge amongst participants at all levels, and removing barriers to learning including language, processes, and access to raw materials.

Website: https://www.brewsake.org/
Join the Guild: https://www.brewsake.org/join-the-guild/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sakebrewersguild
Youtube Seminar Series: https://www.youtube.com/@brewsake/streams

---

Skip to: 20:03 Sake Tasting: Takeda “Black Skull” Tokubetsu Honjozo Muroka Nama Genshu

Takeda “Black Skull” Tokubetsu Honjozo Muroka Nama Genshu

Brewery: Takeda Shuzo
Brand: Takeda
Prefecture: Niigata
Classification: Tokubetsu Honjozo Muroka Nama Genshu
SMV -4
Rice: Koshikagura, Koshiibuki
Yeast: S-3
Alc: 18%
Rice Milling: 60% remaining
Acidity: 1.5

---

Skip to: 35:24 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s First Sake podcast. I am your host, John Puma. I’m from the Sake Notes. I’m also the administrator over at the internet sake Discord, as well as Reddit’s r slash sake c.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:37
And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand. Hello, John. How you doing?

John Puma: 0:55
hey, Tim, what do you hear?

Timothy Sullivan: 0:58
Well, I hear we have another guest in the studio. No.

John Puma: 1:02
Yes, yes, we do for our ongoing series about people who have worked at sake breweries. We, we have not come up with a clever name for this yet. If you have one, maybe reach out to us at Feedback@SakeRevolution.Com and we, you know, submit your name and maybe we’ll use it if we think it’s very good, or maybe we’ll come up with one during this very episode. So, uh, so Tim, yeah. Who is our guest today?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:26
I am so excited to welcome our guests today. We have Lucas Smolic. He is a sake brewer and the founder of the sake Brewer’s Guild which you can find at BrewSake.Org, and he is an all around Super deep well of knowledge about sake brewing, and I can’t wait to find out more about the Sake Brewer’s Guild I think we have a few home brewers that are listening to our podcast.

John Puma: 1:54
One or two.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:55
All right, Lucas, welcome to the show.

John Puma: 1:58
Welcome, Lucas.

Lucas Smolic: 1:59
Thanks for having me.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:00
Lucas, I have to ask you first, for those of you, John and I know you personally and, uh, are happy to call you a friend, but for our listeners who don’t know you yet, can you tell us about your background and how you got involved with sake as a career?

Lucas Smolic: 2:15
Yeah, sure. Um, how far do you wanna go back? We do the, uh, grew up in Boston thing. Um. First experience with sake, because of that, was kind of what a lot of people had, the little tokkuri of hot sake that many people can relate to. I’m a software engineer by trade, so spent 20 years in the game dev industry advertising film, yada yada Outside of work, I got into cooking as a hobby, and that led me into wine tastings and whiskey bars and all that stuff, and you know, generally watching my life go downhill. No, I’m kidding. but, uh, But I developed this interest in the nuance of flavors, right, textures, aromas, and things like that. And I honestly have to say, when it comes to sake, my interactions with Japan were purely random. I was working on a stressful account, and a friend of mine was like, you know, you need some R& R. And I asked him, you know, where should I go? And he just said, I don’t know. Why don’t you go to Japan? That place seems pretty Zen. And, uh, and honestly, that was it, you know, and I’ll skip the whole details of, of taking Japanese lessons and all that, but, basically went to Japan. Rented a car, drove all over the place, little towns, you know, meeting people. This was that time when Airbnbs would actually meet you, like the host would meet you at like the train station, like walk you to your place, and um, and I just got in the habit of saying to people, you know, hey, I don’t know anything about this place, I don’t speak Japanese that well, you know, can I take you out to dinner or like whatever else? And I ended up meeting a whole bunch of locals that way, and one of the things that I found that as I was going around My first journey was everywhere I went, especially with the age group that I was hanging out with, sake was ever present. It was like a constant cultural staple of every meal, every hangout. One story that kind of, that stands out in my mind, which is, my friend Makiko, uh, in Hiroshima, she took me to a neighborhood association event, which most people would think, okay, here’s what we all say. What’s so great about that? It wasn’t that the, the event was any particular, like the, the, the sake wasn’t particular to me. I don’t even think it stood out. What stood out was the, the experience around it. It was how like everyone’s sitting down and having this really comfortable, uh, experience with each other and I would, I just became sort of like another person in the room. Their, you know, uncle, her uncle’s pouring me sake at one point. Her nephew’s Pour me sake. Everyone’s just smiling and laughing. Very little language exchange. Lots of emotion, lots of back and forth, you know, um, visual kind of communication, and something about that got me kind of hooked on it, and so I would say, when I got back to L. A., uh, where I was living at the time, I became that guy that just like going around with all my friends saying, you know, oh, hey, hey, we gotta try sake, we gotta, we gotta get sake, And I wouldn’t even say that’s actually what, was the final moment that triggered I’m in love. Uh, it was more, this was just a fascination of mine. I didn’t even get into brewing until about four or five years ago.

John Puma: 5:10
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Wow. So, I love the idea that you just like went for it in, uh, in Japan. I don’t, I don’t think I have that kind of, that kind of, fuck it, let’s go, in me. but But clearly you do, and kudos to you for it, sir. now when it comes to tasting sake, uh, outside of your, your warm, Tokkuri experiences, what was your, like, Oh, this is, this is Do you have, like, that aha moment, that this is the stuff moment?

Lucas Smolic: 5:37
I do. Yeah, there was, there’s one that always stands out because I remember, uh, someone asked me this a few years ago and I, for the longest time, I was like, ooh, what was it? What was it? And then it suddenly hit me. I was like, oh, of course you know what this was. my friend Shio took me to the Meishu Center, or one of the Meishu Centers in Tokyo, and it was a bunch of tastings, you got to, you know, pull off the rack, and, you know, that whole experience. so I had one that was really, you know, melon, one that was sort of, uh, maybe, maybe more just pure ginjo style, where it’s, it’s kind of rough, and I liked that. And Okonomatsu, 30 year aged, It literally said 1988 on the bottle, it had one of those pop tops where you could reseal it, you know, it was nice. So this was in 2018, so that was actually 30 years old when I saw it, and the caramel, the chocolate, the smooth texture, lingering aroma that made me think I was gonna like eat creme brulee. Absolutely amazing. And I would describe it as, like, my Matrix 1999 moment, although instead of, like, waking up and realizing the world is this, like, barren wasteland, instead I woke up and realized that the real world is actually, like, this wonderland. And I was like, oh, this is amazing. so I just started seeking everything out that I could, like, that vibe. And I was that guy going, like, excuse me, do you have a sake menu? And in America, being extremely underwhelmed by, like, what I would receive as a sake, I’d be like, Oh, none of this tastes good. Cool. Um, but that’s, I would say that’s what really sent me down the obsession with sake.

John Puma: 7:10
Wow.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:11
that is awesome. So wafting, wafting creme brulee, John, we have to add that to our, we have to add that to our tasting notes.

John Puma: 7:19
I want a sake that makes me think of creme brulee

Lucas Smolic: 7:21
If you get that sake, I’m taking the train down to have it with you.

John Puma: 7:24
Haha. Hahaha.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:29
well, when we introduced you, we mentioned that one of your titles is sake brewer. And we know that you’ve worked at sake breweries and made sake in Japan. And we’d love to hear a little bit about those experiences. Can you tell us what breweries you’ve worked in and what that was like for people who kind of dream about that? Like you’re living the dream. So what, what was that like for you?

Lucas Smolic: 7:52
Well, you know, I would distance myself a little bit from the, from anyone thinking that it’s, you know, that I’ve done tons and tons. the honest only brewery that I, I really would say I was on staff on was Takeda Shuzo, who puts out a, a, a very common sake. um, brand up in Niigata called Katafune. And, uh, you know, they, they were started in 1866, so they’re, they’re fairly old, Shiaki, who technically brews in Hawaii, but if you count breweries that prefer to speak Japanese all day long, I would throw that one into the ring. Because, um, the vibe there is super Hawaiian paradise, but when you’re like doing the work in a day to day basis, you do not speak, or if you cannot hear and understand Japanese, you are, you’re not doing the right task. So, You know, that’s that. I did have a chance to, make some koji at Lagoon Brewery in Niigata. That was fun. but I would say, the majority of my time as a brewer was spent at Wetlands Sake, first as one of their, that was in Louisiana, as one of their, brewers to start. Um, I was there really just to learn how to work pumps and stuff like that on a commercial scale, and was kind of quickly promoted. To head brewer. I thought it was, whoa, in shock. but to go back to the, the experience in Japan, I do think that there’s some, some stuff that’s worthwhile. I was glad that I’d had the experience brewing for about two, three years prior to going there, because by the time I got there, I had about a hundred, Commercial fermentations under my belt, ranging all the way up to 3, 000 liters. In fact, a lot of them were 3, 000 liters. and I’d already had the challenge of managing a staff, doing overnights, and that kind of prepared me for the, like, the sadistic way that production, carries itself out. and so that, that was what made, and this is where I’m going to, like, I think a lot of people are like, wait, what? I’m gonna blow your mind with Takeda, because the thing with Takeda Shuzo that blew my mind was We had nap time two times a day and lunch was an hour. Well, to be fair, lunch was the only sleep time unless it was a really heavy day in which case would also sleep around like 2 30. But my point is, every day they had a consistent schedule. So, it went like this, you arrive at like 7 30 or 8, And then it’s kirikaeshi, steam, shubo, cool, cool rice, shikomi, break, so like, you know, coffee, essentially, we’d clean up, more shubo stuff, lunch, for like an hour, which we’d go hang out with everyone in the house and like eat with all their kids and stuff like that, super fun, rice prep, you know. Wash rice, coffee time, prep for tomorrow, daikoji, go home. That was every single day. Like, clockwork.

John Puma: 10:37
Hmm. That is consistent.

Lucas Smolic: 10:38
and I actually think that having seen that now, I was comparing it back to my time, and I was like, wow. So you can do two hours of breaks in a given day? And a given eight hour day, our production day was eight hours, so two of those spent eating or sleeping, and then the rest of it was just crunch, crunch, crunch, go, go, go. but the things that were more, that I wanted to take away from those experiences were, were the nuance. Because again, I was coming in understanding sake brewing, but there was I had just spent three months brewing with Chiaki before I, I actually went from Hawaii to Takeda and back to Hawaii, and she had, she had opened my mind up to all kinds of stuff, and I, um, I almost want to say I would give her the most credit of anyone I’ve spoken with or met. Even my time brewing in Japan, she really showed me what to be focusing on and what I should not be focused on, what I not worry about, but the time in Japan you got to see the old school stuff and that was really cool to kind of go back in time using like kotatsu’s to like, they call them Colloquially they call them hitas, that they put underneath your shubo tank to warm it up. but they also had like a wall of all the instruments that like they never use, it’s just for tours, you know, like the awakeshi bow, which is like the, the stick, looks like a bunch of reeds tied together they use to kind of like take down the foam. And then they now use awakeshi ki, which is basically just like an egg beater strapped to a rope hanging above a, a shubo tank and you’re just whipping that foam. There’s like, they had a rice washer there that I’ve literally only seen in books, like, like mimeograph copies of books from the 1950s. And I was like, and they’re all saying like, this might be the only one of these that exists. Like still,

Timothy Sullivan: 12:23
So, the sake process that you worked with at Takeda Shuzo in Niigata sounds like it’s very regimented and scheduled and all those steps you mentioned, those were all different for our listeners who may not be familiar with those terms. Those are all different production steps like a rice washing. different koji steps, making the koji rice, making the fermentation starter, etc. And, uh, would you say that it was fairly disciplined? I mean, that was kind of my experience in a Japanese sake brewery was that it was regimented and disciplined and highly scheduled. Can

Lucas Smolic: 13:03
kind of like their, their sense of what they had to do. Right, there was no, there was no question about it, because it is a thing you get into a cycle of, right? Also, the brewers I was working with were farmers, right? So they make the rice. All the rice for this brewery comes from these farmers. There was two or three of them that had their own fields, and a couple of them worked together, another one’s separate. But, it is interesting the, the difference maybe in mentality around how they work, they just think, they take it very seriously, there’s no screwing around, there’s a lot of joking though, I mean that’s, I don’t know, I don’t know if your brewery had the same thing, but for us it was like, constant jokes, the whole time was fun, so much fun to work with these people, but, you know, like when it came down to stuff that got serious, everyone’s, Like, whole tone, like the face, everything dropped and it became, you know, okay, let’s get this done. but, some things, some things you don’t, you don’t realize when you’re using older equipment, like, say, the, the sort of, like, wooden buckets that they use, like the hangiri they use to move rice from the steamer, over, like they have this steamer that’s brand new and it’s gorgeous and huge, can do like, you know, 3, 000 kilograms of rice at a time, but they’re still using these like old, hangiri to move rice over to these, they call them tsu, they’re like the mats they lay on the ground, and you put that thing down too hard, like if you drop it to the ground like too much speed, even though you’re supposed to work as quickly as possible, if you put it down too much speed, it, you know, if you ever touch it, oh man, the eyes in the room will suddenly shift to you. I did this. It’s like a, oh, you have committed a mortal sin, like, you let the thing touch, even if it’s sanitary, it’s like, that thing could break apart at any moment, never let it touch the ground, you know what I mean?

Timothy Sullivan: 14:45
you explain what a hangiri is? Can you paint a picture for our listeners what

Lucas Smolic: 14:49
Yeah, it’s, it’s, well, it’s literally like a half barrel or half bucket. It’s like a wooden, wooden bucket, you know, think like apple orchard, right? And, The open top, so there’s nothing enclosing it. They use these for everything. There are some smaller, um, and I bet it has a different name, if I’m being honest. Hangiri is typically a very shallow tub. This is shallow, but it’s maybe about a foot by a foot. they just put rice in it for the most part. I don’t think there’s anything else I’ve seen them use it for. Their shovel to scoop rice out of the koshiki and into this thing was also one of these. It was like a, like a half of one of those with like these rickety wires tied around it. It, it was a, it was a fascinating experience.

John Puma: 15:29
really quickly though, you mentioned that before you went to Japan, the first time you did some studying. Uh, and then you also mentioned that when you were working with Chiyaki over at, Islander, they were conducting most of their day-to-Day work completely in Japanese. How much Japanese did you, uh, did you pick up when you like, were getting ready and how much did you commit, like before you started working in a situation where you had to know it every day?

Lucas Smolic: 15:50
You know, it’s, it’s funny. The brewsake. org work, all this like, research on, on Japanese fermentation and all that, sake fermentation, most of my Japanese is fermentation words. I actually truly believe this. I can’t order sushi to save my life, but if we’re talking about, uh, acid carboxypeptidase, I can talk about that all day. And I’ve realized this, that if I, if someone asked me, like, can you speak Japanese, and I’ll, you know, like, let me hear some. I’m like, I don’t know what to tell you right now. I get, I get hung up. But if someone were to say, you know, can you describe what’s in that, you know, that cooler right now? I’m like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, let’s go into this. Talk about the fermentation happening right now, the yeast I put in, or how I steam the rice. Um, but I would say, because I’m familiar with the terms and the words of fermentation, that did make that experience a lot easier. But, a lot of times it would come down to, like, if we really weren’t understanding each other, I would go ahead and actually draw it out. And as soon as we hit, like, what is an enzyme, or as soon as we understood the, so, like, koso, I learned a lot of these words, like, koso is, is enzyme, while we were there, because as you’re trying to describe, like, why do you do this, and they’re trying to describe it, and they say a word like koso, and you’re like, I don’t know what that word is, and you, it’s really critical to the understanding of what you’re trying to understand. You’ll do everything in your power to learn that word, and I guarantee you’ll never forget it again, because the next day You’re going to come back and want to say, you know, how did such and such work, and you’re going to want to be able to say, ah, you know, um, the koso, the kosa, and, sometimes, you know, I’m sure you’ve both had this experience, you, you figure it out, a little bit of English, a little bit of Japanese, you get there, right?

John Puma: 17:34
So you mentioned the brewsake. org there, which is, lot of what you’re working on these days, and also the Sake Brewers Guild. So what’s that all about?

Lucas Smolic: 17:42
you know, I think, I think the, the ultimate, goal here after coming out of a few years of Brewing myself and wanting to learn more was, I always wanted to, I, from the, from the first time I think I ever read a book on sake brewing, Japanese sake brewing, um, I was always reading something and then they would say, you know, put this much rice in or use this much water. And in, you know, computer science, you always have to know why you do something. You never just do it. Someone’s always going to ask you that question. Why did you do that? Why would you do that? and so I wanted to connect those dots. I wanted to say, like, This is what, this is what the problem is, or this is what we’re trying to achieve. Why do we do these things to achieve it? Why did they write it that way? so to connect a few dots, I had taken John Gauntners, certification course. I had read a few books in English, or all the books in English that we could on sake brewing. I joined every relevant, uh, org that had to do with sake brewing, if that allow us. There’s a lot of Japanese orgs that you, they just won’t let you join. basically I was trying to apply that engineer’s mind of, you know, take your experiential, but apply control points. Like, I did this, but what should it have been? My baume is this. What should my baume be if I want to hit this target?

John Puma: 18:57
And, and hold on, gotta keep in mind that a lot of our people at home do not know what a

Lucas Smolic: 19:00
Baume is Oh, that’s a good point. No, no, I like, this is a good point because, because that’s what I’ve been doing the last few years, right, is like trying to get, trying to get all this in,

John Puma: 19:09
You’re on the other side now, Lucas.

Lucas Smolic: 19:12
on multiple levels. I’m on, I’m on the Sake Revolution podcast. I feel like I’m I’m literally on the other side. Yeah, so, so, things, learning like what baume is, even just that, right? You,

John Puma: 19:24
What is bame?

Lucas Smolic: 19:26
uh, it’s a French word that, that describes the density of, of something in, uh, of a liquid, right? Um, it’s, It’s the same as specific gravity, there’s other words, that are similar to these, they all have different measures, like play doh and things like that, and we use all these words in brewing. typically, I say typically, uh, it’s a measure of how much sugar is, is still in, but really it’s like all the dissolved particles and things like that, because the more stuff you put in that, Solubilize in a liquid it gives it it gives it things buoyancy right so so anyway Bāme

John Puma: 20:03
Yeah. All right. Perfect. As we’re rolling along, I believe we Point in the show where we are going to Taste and talk about a specific sake now Tim. What do we have today? Namasake

Timothy Sullivan: 20:22
recommendation for a sake to all taste together, we’re going to be tasting, Takeda Tokubetsu Honjozo, which is a Muroka Nama Genshu, and Lucas, if you’ll indulge me, I’m just gonna list off some of the stats for this sake and then we can get it in the glass and start tasting. So again, this is a Tokubetsu Honjozo, unpasteurized. It’s from Takeda Shuzo out of Niigata. The rice milling on this is 60 percent and we’re using Koshi Kagura and Koshi Ibuki, two different rice varieties. SMV minus four. John, our alcohol is up around 18%. That’s the genshu, the not diluted with water. Uh, very medium acidity, 1. 5 acidity. And the yeast I’ve never heard of. It’s listed here as S3. Don’t know anything about that, but, uh, those are the stats for this sake. And there’s a very distinct label. Uh, Lucas, do you know anything about this label here?

Lucas Smolic: 21:28
Yeah, I know. It’s not the same label as it is in Japan. I tell you that um This This is this is a great label so nama sake Paul as he’s knowledge From a lot of us who are who are ordering sake from him from a long time He started importing this and made a custom label for it, and I think, honestly, it’s a great label for a number of reasons, but it’s this, this is the black skull bottle, which always confused me in a little ways, because it’s a white skull on black, but we’ll just, we’re going to skip over that. It’s called the black skull. Um, but, so yeah, we’re going to get a laugh about that later.

John Puma: 22:05
Mm

Lucas Smolic: 22:07
because it’s one of those, in advertising we call it like the, I think it was the, the 6 6 3 or 1 rule or something like that. It was the, what you see when you’re walking by on a shelf and that gets you to come closer and then as you get closer, what draws your eye to want to pick it up. And then that final, like, what, what makes you want to actually, like, commit to buying this thing? And I gotta be honest, I think this is a fantastic thing that makes someone immediately say, Ooh, what is that? You know, they don’t even know what it is. They’re just like, I want to drink whatever’s in that bottle. Um, and it also has this adorable polar bear on it, so

Timothy Sullivan: 22:41
Yeah, well, let me, let me briefly describe the label for our listeners. It’s a black background. It says Takeda Tokubetsu Honjozo Nama Genshu. And then, as you said, there’s this, uh, very graphic white outline of a skull. And I just want everyone to envision like a pirate’s flag skull, right?

Lucas Smolic: 22:59
Jolly roger.

John Puma: 23:02
Yeah, Yeah, it’s a Jolly Roger.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:04
And it is very eye catching and I’ve never tasted this sake before, Lucas. So I’m very excited.

John Puma: 23:10
wow. You’re in for a treat.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:11
Lucas, is it true that this is one of the sakes you helped to brew when you were at Takeda? Is that

Lucas Smolic: 23:18
It’s difficult to know if this specific one is the bottle you’re drinking, but that’s only because there’s an aging process involved in it. I don’t know if the ones we got here would have been those, but it is possible. It is totally possible. But yes, I did get a chance to, help brew this.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:34
awesome. So, John, what do you say? Should we get this in the glass? Let’s

John Puma: 23:37
I think it’s time.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:39
All right.

John Puma: 23:54
Tim, that pour was so beautiful. I didn’t even bother.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:58
All right. So, uh, we’ve all got it in the glass now. This is the Takeda Tokubetsu Honjozo, uh, little bit of color, little bit of a golden color there. Right? All right.

John Puma: 24:09
Yeah. I assume that’s that

Timothy Sullivan: 24:12
That’s the Muroka bit. Yeah. Not charcoal filtered. Yeah. All right. Let’s give it a smell. Mmm. It smells very Nama, very unpasteurized.

John Puma: 24:26
Yeah. It definitely has that Nama note to it. it’s also like, it kind of betrays. That’s got some strength behind it. You can kind of almost smell that 18%. Mm

Timothy Sullivan: 24:38
Lucas, any, any notes on the aroma from you?

Lucas Smolic: 24:41
You know, I was trying to think off the top of my head, what? What would I describe this as? I think I would describe what I’m getting from this as like amino acid for it, like I like the It’s not quite to a soy sauce, but if you age this, I think it would go that direction, uh, in a very positive way. I like those type of sake, so I like when things have a kind of, it’s not acid forward, I think, to be clear on that. It’s not bitter, it’s not biting, it’s not, um, it’s not even astringent, it’s very smooth, but it’s not, but it has this quality to it that I, usually would associate with amino acids from all the different varieties I’ve tried of sake where it’s a little bit of acidity on your tongue and it kind of gives that notes of not umami but it’s close, close in that direction.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:36
Yeah, well, I totally get what you’re saying. We’re looking at the aroma and I think that there is a savory note there. There’s a little ricey note there, but what John said as well, I pick up on a little bit of warmth from the higher alcohol percentage when you’re just smelling it. And, uh, it leads me to think that this will have some richness to it, but there’s only one way to find out, right JP?

John Puma: 25:59
Absolutely.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:00
All right, let’s give it a taste.

John Puma: 26:01
It’s a dirty job, but somebody’s got to do it.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:04
mmm, okay. On the palate, This has,

John Puma: 26:08
big.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:09
it’s big, it’s rich. it has almost a nutty, nuttiness to it, but not oxidized. Like it’s not a nuttiness from, you oxidation, or sitting around for three years. There’s an, uh, you’re absolutely right, Lucas, there’s amino acids and umami on the palate. It gives it this nutty, um, borderline soy sauce flavor. Really good.

John Puma: 26:36
lot of umami. In a very good way.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:39
I had, I went to a restaurant recently and they made a soft serve ice cream from sesame seeds and it was a sesame seed soft serve and it was like, so peanut buttery. I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like, Unbelievably how the sesame seeds brought through that nutty characteristic and it reminds me very much of that experience drinking this. It has almost a nutty characteristic, but it is still rich like a nama.

Lucas Smolic: 27:11
think that nutty flavor that you described, I really agree with that. That, um, I think I’m going to take back something I said earlier. I think, I think the umami That’s how I would describe it. It’s like, amino acid is where, you know, I mostly taste it um, what is it, glutamine? specifically like that umami sweetness coming from the amino acids, which typically amino acids present as bitter or something else, and so.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:38
Yeah, you know, while we’re sipping on this, I’d love to ask you, Lucas, something that I think we have a few homebrewers in our listenership, and I’d love to know if I was a homebrewer sitting at home and I’m just hearing about brewsake. org for the first time, what do you recommend for people who want to try their first batch homebrewing? Like, where do you get started? What do you do?

Lucas Smolic: 27:59
Boy, is that a great question. The number one thing, I think, to start before anyone even does the brewing is to Set themselves a course, like, to how to arrive where they want to go. If all they want to do is try brewing sake, then I would say, we have a recipe on the site, you can follow it. Uh, if you can’t find the ingredients, generally you can order things on Amazon, or even try rice that you have at home. you, believe it or not, you can order koji on Amazon. It, it’s not going to be the same as you can get you know, if you make your own, but what we keep trying to tell people is, you know, give yourself a direction. If you want to eventually get to the point where you’re home brewing or commercial brewing sake, um, start at the basics. Just, just let yourself put the ingredients into a thing. You don’t have to make the koji. You don’t have to make it super special. Just, Don’t, don’t even worry about getting sake yeast. Use wine yeast. Just do the process. Because that part, getting the process down, that’s the hard part. Once you get it in your head and you don’t even need to, like, you don’t even need to look at your sheets anymore, okay, then you can start going, okay, I want to focus on less acid or, you know, higher sugar or whatever it may be. But we see a lot of people come in and the first thing they say is, I’m making my own koji, I’m doing a kimoto or a bodai moto, and, you know, they It’s like calling a Babe Ruth on your first day of peewee baseball. It’s like, what are you doing? But you know, that’s fine. I love that energy though. Like that’s good. You’re going to need it. You’re going to need that energy the same way that Kimoto yeast need to be strong AF to last for like 60 days. So good. Congrats. Welcome to the party. Um, and yeah, come to brewsake. org. We do have a lot of information there and then you can always. Um, go to, we have a, a, well, the internet sake discord that, uh, John Puma, um, has been running for a long time. that’s where I found a whole bunch of people, and, and recently, um, when we started the guild, we created a kind of brewer’s Like a brewer’s kind of, area where commercial and homebrewers kind of get together and, talk about these kind of topics and help each other out. and a little bit, a lot more focused, we’ll say, with forums and things like that to keep us a lot more, uh, engaged.

John Puma: 30:13
Yeah, the rest of the Discord is a little bit chaotic, but the portion of the Discord that Lucas runs is very, you know, you guys have a mission. And so, I really love what you have done with that, you and the other guys that run that group. It’s fantastic and it’s a really, I’m so happy that it’s become such a great resource for people. you again for that.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:36
And one thing I want to highlight is that I’m not a brewer day to day, but when I poke my nose into the sake brewers discord, the thing that makes me so excited is that you have people from all over the world. Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, this is not just

Lucas Smolic: 30:53
I know.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:54
48.

Lucas Smolic: 30:55
So much, of this in in the ecosystem is like America, America, America. In fact, even when people say America, they’re usually referring to the U. S. and, and that’s, that’s obviously challenging, right? I mean, half of the rice that Isbell Farms produces, uh, for sake brewing goes to Mexico. For nami, that’s incredible. That’s how much they’re consuming down there. And I haven’t had a chance to go visit there, but I want to. But let’s talk really quick. The people that we’ve reached, this last year over 5, 000 people came to our site, which for a niche thing like sake brewing is huge, considering two years ago or even a year ago those numbers were nothing like that. We have 55 countries that have come to our site and have participated in our calls and in our chats, and this is just kind of cool. At this moment we have sake brewers who are in our group on all seven continents. All seven. And that includes Antarctica for anyone that didn’t do the math on that. We got someone literally stationed at the South Pole right now. Uh, anyway.

John Puma: 32:04
amazing. That is absolutely

Lucas Smolic: 32:07
Sake Lab LA. Uh, two guys that I, I knew, uh, when I was living in LA. Uh, one of them is currently stationed for a year down in the South Pole. Hysterical.

John Puma: 32:17
That’s amazing.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:18
God.

John Puma: 32:19
Yeah. That was, that was a fun fact I did not expect to hear today and learn. so. Uh, we’re gonna get, we’re gonna wrap it up here. Lucas, thank you so much for coming by. now, a couple of questions for you, though, before we do. Where can people learn about you? or, brewsake. org. And don’t just say brewsake. org. That’s cheating.

Lucas Smolic: 32:41
See how easy it is? That’s why we chose that name. Um, yeah. Um, so, we do have a mailing list you can sign up on the site, so, you know, we will send out things when we’re doing it. There’s no, we don’t, you know, there’s no advertising or anything like that. This is just, trust me, it’s very dry. You’re not going to be in any risk of receiving, um, you know, advertising from us. we have, uh, monthly sake brewing seminars that are on YouTube, you can register for them on the site if you, that’ll help us keep you in touch. We would love you to join the guild if you want to be a brewer or if you are currently a brewer. Um, again, we literally have people in all over the world. The third largest participant in that, by the way, is Japan, strangely enough. Um, this is lots of people, I would say Just join and you’ll meet people from all over the world, commercial and home. and then, uh, we do have social channels in the works, but right now, uh, if you follow me, I will connect you and you can stay there and I’ll let you know when the other ones are coming up. That’s junmai underscore gaijinjo. So, not daiginjo, it’s junmai underscore gaijinjo. Um, good friend of mine, Kim. Come up with that. Um,

John Puma: 33:48
think it’s very clever.

Timothy Sullivan: 33:50
Very

Lucas Smolic: 33:50
that’s that’s that.,

John Puma: 33:51
that’s awesome. and by the way, look, I was going to say, like, when we met, it was, uh, during the pandemic, it was when we were kind of, everybody was doing online stuff and you were brewing sake in your kitchen, you were literally, uh, washing rice and I was like, oh, you’re cooking. You’re like, no, we’re making sake. I was like, okay. You know?

Lucas Smolic: 34:06
probably doing both

John Puma: 34:07
and it was. And it’s really great to see what you’ve done since then, because it’s been, it’s been, it’s relatively like a short period of time, and you’ve done so many things in that span. It’s been crazy.

Lucas Smolic: 34:21
What’s really crazy, John, is to think that I, I would say at this point, I would rate my experience. I’m at one percent of being what I would consider to be like a, you know, a expert sake brewer or even like a proficient sake brewer. So I think everyone that gets into this has that feeling of you’re nowhere near where you want to be.

John Puma: 34:39
is that all learning? don’t know.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:43
I agree with that.

John Puma: 34:44
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:45
Lucas, so great to have you here. I want to mention for all our listeners that, uh, all the resources and, YouTube videos and everything that Lucas has mentioned, we’re going to embed those into our show notes. So if you want a shortcut to everything Sake Brewer’s Guild and BrewSake.Org, please visit the Sake Revolution website. Check out our show notes for this episode. And we will make sure to connect you with all the home brewing goodness that they have at brewsake. org for any of our aspiring sake brewers out there. Lucas, thank you so much for joining us. It was a pleasure to have you.

Lucas Smolic: 35:24
Thank you.

Timothy Sullivan: 35:24
So a special again to Lucas for joining us. I can’t wait to learn more at brewsake. org. And I know that. They have different ways to support them. So if you visit their website, you can learn all about their organization there. And I want to shout out a special thank you as well to our patrons who are the supporters of Sake Revolution. Without you guys, we would not have a show and we appreciate you all so, so much. If you would like to learn how to support Sake Revolution, visit Patreon.com/SakeRevolution to learn more.

John Puma: 35:58
Uh, and if you have questions, comments, show ideas, or if you would like to name this series that we’re currently doing, you can contact us over at feedback@sakerevolution.com. get at us on Instagram, SakeRevolutionPod, we’re over on Facebook, people message us there sometimes too. yeah, we want to hear from you, we want to interact, we want to have some, some exchange of ideas. While you’re pondering that exchange of ideas, please raise a glass. Remember to keep drinking sake and kanpai.

Episode 174. This week we welcome a sake personality from Quebec, Canada to the studio – Mr. Benoit Champagne. With a name like Mr. Champagne, you might well think Benoit was destined for a life involved with sparkling wine, but luckily for the sake lovers of Quebec, he found his way first to Japan and discovered a love of sake, which he now guides breweries to exporting in Canada. Benoit also worked for years as a non-Japanese brewer and export manager at a Japanese sake brewery, which we also discuss in this episode. Listen in as we sip on and explore the je ne sais quoi of a delicious sake recommended by Benoit, Zaku Ho no Tomo Junmai. Join us! #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 01:55 Interview: Benoit Champagne

Profile -Benoit Champagne
CERTIFICATIONS
Nanbu Tōji Guild – Nanbu Brewer Certificate
WSET Level 3 in Sake – Passed with merit
Certified Sake Professional (CSP) – Certified
Saké Scholar Course (SSC) – Certified

PROFESSIONAL CAREER
Nijikai Saké Inc. – Founder, CEO
Urakasumi Sake Brewery: Export Manager & Brewer

UNIVERSITY CAREER
University of Montreal – East Asia and Politics
Nagoya Imperial University – Japanese Language Training
Niigata University – Modern Society and Culture (Master’s)

About Nijikai Saké Inc.
Nijikai Saké Inc was founded in 2022 with the aim of helping Japanese sake producers reach their international customers and promoting sake and the culture surrounding it. As part of its activities, Nijikai Saké Inc offers high-level training in French , supported by industry professionals, brewers and sake educators. The company also supports Japanese artisans who design the highest quality sake and luxury tableware.

Website: https://www.nijikaisake.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nijikaisake/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/nijikaisake

---

Skip to: 17:05 Sake Tasting: Zaku Ho no Tomo Junmai

Zaku Ho no Tomo Junmai

Brewery: Shimizu Seizaburo Shoten
Brand: Zaku
Prefecture: Mie
Classification: Junmai
SMV +5
Rice: Yamada Nishiki,Ukon Nishiki
Yeast: Association 1401
Alc: 15%
Rice Milling: 60% remaining
Acidity: 1.7

About Shimizu Seizaburo Shoten

Our Approach to Brewing
We believe that it is only working by hand that you can bring out the best flavour when brewing sake. But even then, simple repetition isn’t enough alone to brew good sake. Just as the taste and quality of agricultural produce varies from year to year, so too will the nature of our brewing change with the natural environment. Each day, we watch, listen to, and work closely with our rice. It is this attention to detail that is key. Our hope is to merely take another step closer to our ideal sake with each passing day.

In our modern world, productivity and efficiency are often prized above all else, with many brewers using large-scale automated machinery to realise these goals. We don’t believe, however, that it is possible to produce our ideal sake taking that approach. Instead, we utilise small fermentation vessels, which allow us to pay close attention to the delicate workings of the fermentation process. We do our best to carefully manage our yeast, our koji, our water, and our rice, exactly so we can brew the best sake we can.

It goes without saying that rice sits at the heart of the lives of all Japanese people. This year, like many that have come before, the harvest was thankfully a bountiful one. And so it is that we have the privilege of making sake from our most precious rice. If we are sure to respect the rice we use, we can always be proud of the sake we make.

This is our sake-zukuri – our way of making sake.

---

Skip to: 30:44 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:22
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast. I’m your host, John Puma from the Sake Notes, also administrator over at the Internet Sake Discord, and I also run the Reddit r slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:36
And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m the director of education at the Sake Studies Center, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:54
That’s right, Tim, and thank you for coming by for yet another week. I don’t know how I lured you into this. You keep coming back no matter what I do. It’s pretty impressive. Mm

Timothy: 1:06
Well, John, I’m so excited to welcome another guest. We’re going another interview this week, but we’re starting a series of interviewing non Japanese people who have worked at Japanese sake Breweries before. I think I’m someone who’s done that, and I’m always interested to learn people’s motivation to take on that pretty challenging task for themselves.

John Puma: 1:32
Yeah, one might, one might say you were probably the first guest on our show in that series. We just didn’t know it yet. And we also have to workshop that name. I think that people who worked at sake breweries, it just doesn’t roll off the tongue. but you know, we’ll, we’ll figure that out. And hopefully maybe our guests have some ideas and we can, we can, bounce a few off. Uh, so Tim, can you introduce this wonderful person that is in the chat with us right now?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:55
Yes, I’m so happy to introduce my friend, Benoit Champagne. He is a Thank you. consultant and owns a company in Quebec, Canada, called Nijikai Sake. He’s an advisor for brewers who want to export to Canada. And he’s lived in Japan and has a tremendous story. So I’m so excited to welcome Benoit to the podcast. Welcome, Benoit.

Benoit Champagne: 2:22
Hi Timothy. Hi John. Thanks for having me on the show. It’s really nice you thought about inviting me. It’s a really high privilege. I love your podcast and I hope we’re going to have a fun time talking sake

John Puma: 2:34
today oh, so you’ve listened to us before then.

Benoit Champagne: 2:36
Of course I did.

John Puma: 2:37
Oh, wow. Now the pressure’s on.

Benoit Champagne: 2:40
It’s not my native tongue, but my native language, but I love listening to you guys and I hope you’re not going to be too rough on my language skills

John Puma: 2:50
no, you sound great.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:50
Absolutely. I can’t wait any longer. I have to ask you about a couple things on your resume here. We want to find out how you got into sake, how you wound up in Japan. And one of the things on your resume here that caught my eye is that you have a Toji Guild certificate from the Nambu Toji Guild. Super interested to hear about that. So please give us a bit of your background. How did you get into sake and how did you get to Japan?

Benoit Champagne: 3:21
Well, actually it’s a long story. I’m try, I’m gonna try to resume it, but, I was a student from the MBU Kaga show. It’s a scholarship, the Japanese government gives to students who are studying their research program or their master degrees. And I was in Niigata, which is the capital of Sake. I’m sure. Uh,, Timothy is a, great, lover

John Puma: 3:42
I’m surrounded.

Benoit Champagne: 3:45
And perhaps more than half of my friends were having this part-time job in a Sake brewer near, the university or near their hometown. And they were inviting me, in, in their breweries to just experience the culture around it. And that’s how I went to, to the sake industry. And now today, not s I’m sorry, but, the brewery where I was hired is Urakasumi, which is not in in Niigata, but it’s a brewery that I approach because I’m a huge fan of the Urakasumi Zen products that perhaps most of, our listeners are already know about. And and through Urakasumi, I participated in this brewing program, the Nanbu Toji program, which is the biggest guild of of brewers in Japan. And one funny story about this is that my my boss at the time, Mr. Saura, he he did not expect me to to pass the certification because it’s I don’t know if you already know it, Timothy or John, but, Passing a nanbutouji, it’s 70 percent pass and 30 percent fail. Now, I was really thinking I would be in the 30 percent because of my Japanese, but I don’t know how, but I got the certificate, so I’m really happy, and I’m really proud of of this, and now I’m a Nanbu toji brewer. Not a toji, but a brewer.

John Puma: 5:07
you got to start somewhere.

Benoit Champagne: 5:08
Of course.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:09
that is amazing. And that was all in Japanese, right? The exam and the instruction.

Benoit Champagne: 5:14
Exactly. There’s actually a rule in Nambu Toji where you are not allowed to write in Hiragana or Katakana, so you have to write your answers in kanji.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:23
Oh my God. Wow.

John Puma: 5:27
Tim, have you ever done that?

Timothy Sullivan: 5:28
no. no. I didn’t even, this is on another level. I cannot even

John Puma: 5:36
That, this concept fills me with terror. I’ll tell you that right now.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:40
that is so absolutely impressive. So you started working for Urakasumi and you did only brewing work or what was your work at the brewery?

Benoit Champagne: 5:50
At first they thought, as a foreigner It’s more it’s actually needed to know some brewing skills in order to introduce sake to the foreign market. So I did more than half a year in the brewery before going abroad. But actually, I think all people at Urakasumi thought from that point it’s not a matter of being a foreigner or being a Japanese. Perhaps every salesman should actually brew sake before going on the road, which I totally agree on. A new learning that they made through hiring me and a learning that I made through being hired by them.

John Puma: 6:28
Wow. That’s pretty cool. I like that and that’s like a good, method. I think it’s a good idea. So I’m glad that they came to that conclusion to I think more, maybe more breweries should adopt that. I like that a lot.

Benoit Champagne: 6:39
A lot of foreigners are starting to actually get this brewing experience. It’s actually great too,

John Puma: 6:44
yeah, we’re seeing it more and more. So when, getting into sake, we all have our moment. We all have that moment where the sake speaks to us and we have the aha. This is the beverage. Tell us about your aha moment.

Benoit Champagne: 6:58
I think it was when I visited an Niigata brewery. It’s called Imayatsukasa, which you probably know. But there’s this moment where the Kuramoto just opened a tank and he he threw at us with the the tank cover a draft of air of smelling uh, fermented sake. And I was like. Oh, I like that smell. This is for me. So I think that was the moment. I don’t know for you if you have a particular one each or anything.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:28
That’s great. I think you’re our first convert to sake by smell,

John Puma: 7:32
Yeah, I think so. That’s amazing though. That’s pretty great.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:38
but I’ve had that experience too, where a brewer lifts the lid off the tank and waves it, and like this waft of ginjo aroma just smacks you in the face. That’s awesome.

John Puma: 7:49
Yeah, I think that if you weren’t, if you weren’t a sake fan going into a situation like that, once you have that, it’s like, you can’t, how could you not? How could somebody not love sake after that?

Benoit Champagne: 7:58
Running on what Timothy said, I think that draft of Ginjo aroma is it’s super hard to describe, but once you have it, you’re like, okay, that’s what ginjoka is. You don’t need a wine glass to feel it anymore. You understand?

John Puma: 8:11
I agree. I totally agree.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:14
we’d love to pick up where your story left off in Urakasumi Brewery. So you’re working there, you did your training, you worked probably both in sales and as a brewer, is that right?

Benoit Champagne: 8:26
In my last years, of course, when COVID hit, it was a bit different, but I was mostly on the road, so two, three, four countries each month. That’s harsh on the jet lag. It’s a constant jet lag. But I came actually back to Canada, not because of any problem in Japan is just a family reasons. So I’m really still attached a lot to Urakasumi. I’m still I’m, they’re still my customers, so I still help them with representation Canada, and it’s still a product I have in cases at home in my cellar,

John Puma: 8:59
That’s nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:02
That’s awesome. So you wound up back in Canada. Can you explain a little bit? About the company you started in 2022, Nijikai Sake, what you’re doing there in Quebec and how you’re helping brewers to export sake.

Benoit Champagne: 9:19
At first when I came back, I saw there are so many people trying to get sake in, but with state’s monopoly, I don’t know if our listeners know about this, but Since it’s state controlled, there’s a really high conservatism into going to new beverages. Quebec is actually 10 to 20 years late on the United States market as of now. I thought if there’s so many people trying to get in it, Inside the country and still no ways to actually buy it, having one or more player coming in is not going to help anyone. I thought the best way to contribute to the industry as a whole was to advise people, especially on how to come to a market like Quebec, where everybody thinks it’s in English, but there’s like French rules governing. Thanks. you’re labeling, so you need to have the language skills to get into the market and get the laws done. So the idea was actually to support breweries first, and then educate the market second, towards the understanding of sake. And it’s actually been really really good in the past two years. Never ran out of of work, like we say.

John Puma: 10:37
That’s a good thing. I think that’s great. So you mentioned that over in Quebec, you’ve got a very, you’ve got a state run thing which is a, it’s a case of some states here in the U. S. as well. New York is not one of those, but I guess what are the I guess the pros and cons of that. Obviously some of the cons are that you’re beholden to them and you’re things will be, there’ll be slow bringing new things to market, but there are any benefits to the system or is it just something that that, that gets in the way sometimes?

Benoit Champagne: 11:06
I would say from a state’s perspective, yes, there’s, there are benefits. If you look at the systems like in in Scandinavia, they they’re actually managed by by the health ministry. So it’s a way to control how alcohol is managed through the health system in those countries. In Canada, it’s the economic the Ministry of Finance. It’s more about making money. That is the objective. So if the States makes money out of alcohol sales, they actually finance the education systems, the healthcare indirectly, etc. From a brewer’s perspective, the big merit out of this is if you have one customer to manage for a whole area like this, They buy a lot at one order, so it’s really easy shipments once you get your your road going. However, starting is the harsh part. It can take years to be able to get into the market. And perhaps one of the huge cons is that they manage sake like they man like they manage wine, so they don’t know about the refrigeration part.

John Puma: 12:14
hmm. Mm hmm.

Benoit Champagne: 12:15
We cannot and we will never have namazake in the next, perhaps, 20 to 30 years unless they change this. We cannot have super high quality Junmai, Daiginjo preserved as it was in Japan. We need to make sacrifices on quality, which is a huge cons that we have both in Ontario and Quebec, I think.

John Puma: 12:35
Wow. Oh, wow.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:37
What’s the experience like for a consumer to buy sake in Quebec? Are the liquor stores run by the government? How does that work? If I’m just a person on the street and I want to go buy a bottle of sake, what’s that

Benoit Champagne: 12:50
oh, it’s there’s a lot of stores in Quebec, so for the population, I think there’s 450 ish stores. Around the territory for just DSAQ in Quebec. So it’s really easy to go get the bottles that are available, or you can also do the online purchase, which is also very easy. However, to get a good choice on what you have, it’s always the same products that’s going to be there. And it’s mostly the same brands. I think more than half of the sakes are managed by three national brands. And actually, COVID was positive in some ways because they relaxed the rules into the bottle sellings, making restaurants being able to to sell just to sell bottles by themselves. Of course, they have to buy through the the state monopoly, but they can choose what they want to buy through different agencies, and so they are the one who are mostly providing the good quality stuff, the the go to sake bottles so it’s most of the agents have their Take their restaurants listing where you know where the bottle shops are, you orient the customer towards them and not towards the monopoly, most of the time.

John Puma: 14:10
So you already mentioned that you’ve you that you still have a Urakasumi close to your heart But who else do you represent over there? Who else do you do business with so to speak?

Benoit Champagne: 14:20
The company that actually encouraged me the most and to which I’m going to be forever grateful is Zaku. Shimizu Seizaburo Shoten, located in Mie. And I actually knocked at their door first when I started my business and say, you know, I am a huge fan of your sakes. And I actually already sold around the world with the Shimizu couple, which are so lovely. They’re perhaps one of the best human beings I know. and they actually said yes, and in a week, they’re like, yes, help us promote sake, help us promote the Mie culture as a whole. And and yes I’m very proud to represent them since two years now. I’m also working with Nihonsakari recently I’ve started working with Heaven Sake. There’s also the world’s best sommelier, who’s also a Quebecer, a friend of mine, so I’m helping him with his sake brands, Essence 5 and Tanaka Chartier. So a lot of brands here and then to promote, and they all became more friends than customers, actually, over the years, I think. I all have them close to my heart now.

John Puma: 15:34
Oh, that’s awesome

Timothy Sullivan: 15:35
That’s great. You mentioned that you help brewers in Japan kind of position themselves for the Canadian market. But what, you also mentioned education, which I’m really interested in, what type of education do you do? And, And how does that happen?

Benoit Champagne: 15:50
Everyone knows about Michael Tremblay. Everyone knows about John Gauntner, which are kind of mentors to me in terms of sake promotion. And I realized in Quebec, there’s no such thing as sake education for professionals. So if you speak English, or if English is a harsh language for you, it’s hard to get grasp on the crucial information you need, because it’s mostly in Japanese or in English. I started this year to to give a very advanced sake professional course in Quebec. Which was actually a very good success in April when I first gave it. And now I’m doing the second semester in September. So we are going through all the brewing process all the service methods. I already heard in one of your podcasts how you you were talking about the etiquette of sake sake service. So this is my pleasure to see my students. Do it do it in their stores, right? So there’s a microbrewery called Ile de Galles in Montreal, and they all took my class and each time I go in and grab a beer with them, they’re getting their buck lower than mine and say, Oh, look, I can do it myself now. I am very impressed about your modesty.

John Puma: 17:05
Great. I think that is a wonderful time to take a moment here and let’s taste some sake. Now you mentioned that that a a brand that you’re very fond of is Zaku. So that is what we’ve got today. We found a bottle that all three of us were able to get our grubby little hands on. And and honestly, like I’m a big fan. So any excuse to get some extra Zaku, I’m really excited. So thank you by the way. And uh, Tamiya, you want to tell us what we’ve got today?

Timothy Sullivan: 17:34
it’s all right, I’m going to introduce the stats for this sake. So as we said, the brand is Zaku. The particular sake we’re tasting today is Honotomo Junmai. The brewery name again, this just rolls off the tongue. It is Shimizu Seizaoboru Shoten. How did I do?

Benoit Champagne: 17:57
Almost. Seizaburo,

Timothy Sullivan: 18:04
Seizaburo Shoten.

Benoit Champagne: 18:06
A japanese. You’re perfect.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:09
And again, this is a Junmai. The rice variety used here, we have Yamada Nishiki and Ukon Nishiki. And the yeast is association number 1401. The alcohol percentage is 15%. Rice polishing is 60%, our SMV is plus 5, and we have an acidity of 1. 7. So the next step is for us to open our bottles and pour this into our wine glass. So let’s do that now.

John Puma: 18:39
I’ve got a sake competition silver medal on mine.

Benoit Champagne: 18:43
Actually, Zaku wins so many competitions, I’m, even representing them, I have a hard time to keep track of.

John Puma: 18:52
Yeah. Tim, that was a hearty pour. Do you like the sake?

Timothy Sullivan: 19:04
It was all for the, it was all for the audio, John. I did for the audio.

John Puma: 19:09
All right.

Benoit Champagne: 19:11
That’s the perfect

John Puma: 19:12
That’s what he says. But we know the truth. Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan: 19:17
we do, Benoit, is we look at the color. We look at it in the glass, and we’d love to hear your comments because you’re the expert here with this brand.

Benoit Champagne: 19:26
Actually I would say in a good WSET three way to say things. It’s a very good pale lemon green color. It’s not too transparent, but the, the um, the purity, there’s no there, there’s no whatsoever in wine when you would say tannins, but like a residues of rice is really pure really clear. Um, I think that’s, that wraps it up for the

John Puma: 19:47
yeah not

Timothy Sullivan: 19:48
perfect. Let’s give it a smell. Oh wow, that’s lovely.

John Puma: 19:54
I think I did.

Benoit Champagne: 19:59
actually they have another product called Gennotomo, who’s brewed really similarly, but they use just a different yeast. It’s the 701, which is mostly used in the brewing industry. But having this 1401, which is completely different profile, you get two sakes that are completely different. Really interesting to compare together. We couldn’t find the genotomu in the U. S. For the interview, but I think having the honotomu is brings you more into the the lichis, I think, if my pronunciation is correct. Also the floral, the perhaps a little vanilla I usually feel. I don’t know if it’s if it’s common to you guys. I

Timothy Sullivan: 20:43
there’s a very subtle perfumed note here, so I think vanilla ties in with that very well. I get a little bit of a peach, peach aroma as well. What about for you, John? This,

John Puma: 20:58
Is my main take away from this.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:00
this was one of those moments where you plant the thought in John’s head and then

John Puma: 21:05
And I go, Ooh I choose to believe vanilla.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:07
All right. Let’s give it a taste.

Benoit Champagne: 21:12
Could go on and on with

John Puma: 21:13
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:14
it’s very sophisticated. It’s very elegant. And the word that keeps coming to mind is layered. So it’s not a simple, straightforward word. Flavor. Or aroma. There’s a lot to explore, but the whole time it’s still very elegant.

Benoit Champagne: 21:36
My personal liking about this type of product is actually taking the balance with a layer of umami. I don’t know if that joins your thought, but a lot of wine lovers will go straight up with the balance on sugar and acidity. Whereas when you put the third value into that balance equation of umami, of savoriness, It changes the whole experience. And that, I think that’s why because I don’t know if you realize, but it’s brewed like a Junmai Ginjo, but it’s a Junmai. But I think that strong umami is the reason why it’s so obvious. You get this, you can chew the y the rice in the sake almost, even if it’s brewed with that polishing ratio of 60%.

John Puma: 22:24
That’s really nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:26
John and I have called a lot of sakes ricey in the past, and this has a trace of rice flavor through it. But it’s so well integrated and so balanced that I wouldn’t call this a ricey sake, as its primary characteristic, but the umami and the rice is there to balance the peach and the lychee fruity flavors, and it’s just really good.

John Puma: 22:55
Yeah, I’m still getting that vanilla that we talked about earlier, the vanilla aroma. I get a little bit of the taste as well, but I also get some really nice citrus notes. I can’t be more specific, unfortunately, and just not that developed yet. And, but that, that, that umami, that riciness pardon the term is still is present throughout and it’s really nice. It grounds it in an interesting way. It stops her from getting too ginjo.

Benoit Champagne: 23:21
I’m actually sharing, like, all three of the tastings about this. I feel like the longer you keep it in the mouth before swallowing, I think these peach notes become a little bit more obvious coming in the end. But at first, it’s I would be on John’s side here, and it’s like super like vanilla, lychee, flowers and stuff. That’s what comes to mind. One funny story, I talked with Uchiyama-toji, who’s who’s the master brewer behind all the Zaku products, and he’s a geek in terms of studying the chemistry behind sake. And he’s a man of few words, like we say. One question I like to ask Ji is, is what for you is the most important part in brewing sake because. Most like the traditional way to say is so the Koji, the moto, and then the Moromi is in order the most important. But some would say, oh, it’s cleaning the rice. Some would say no, it’s the polishing. So it’s a thought that evolved with the modern times and each have their specific moment. When I ask Uchiyama-Toji, he just replied. filtration. And he’s it’s all about the moment when you do the filtration. And he never added anything else. For him, it’s it’s super clear. You’re supposed to understand. But each time I drink different Zakus, I get this feeling where like the time where you stop the moromi and the timing until it gets in the bottle changes so much the product. And one good example is the impression version of the Zaku series. So you have the same product, the Honotomo, where you have just a different bottling period. But then it becomes almost as if it was nama, because you have that bubbly like CO2 feeling remaining in the back. You have different aromas coming in because of the the ways the air moves in mouth. Then I’m like, it’s the same product. It’s just a filtration timing difference. How can you explain this? That I, like it’s a phrase that, that haunted me since I visited Zaku last time. If you have insights about this, feel free to share. I’m still in the enigma on that one.

John Puma: 25:44
we’re gonna need people to write in on that and let us know if they’ve got any thoughts on that.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:49
My only thought on that is that the timing of, again the stopping the fermentation, pressing, filtering can have a tremendous impact on the texture of the sake. And I think that comes through with Zaku really well. We’ve talked about the flavor and the aroma, but the texture is also super elegant. And it’s the perfect balance between being a little rich, but not overdoing it. So I think my guess would be that the filtration step is so important to get that Zaku texture. Is

Benoit Champagne: 26:24
perhaps leaving it too long as well. The tendencies to go get it dry and then dilute it to water. Not doing this, but having the exact moment where you should have the sake completed in the eyes of the Toji allows you to get that umami, that absence of dilution that you need to get the proper balance in the end. That, that’s, that was my first conclusion on that. That saying Mr. Uchiyama But uh, but again it’s a question of interpretation, maybe

Timothy Sullivan: 26:56
it’s in Mie Prefecture, right? And is it a large brewery or a smaller brewery?

Benoit Champagne: 27:03
It’s actually I think it’s production capped, but it’s a small brewery, so they don’t want to increase their volume anymore. They’re satisfied with what they have, and they want to just improve the quality of each bottles. But the city where it is, it’s called Suzuka. It’s right in the middle of your way to go to Ise Jingu, where famous sun goddess Amaterasu is enshrined.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:31
Yeah, is it a cult sake in Japan?

Benoit Champagne: 27:35
What do you mean by cult sake? Sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:40
in English when we say cult sake, we mean a sake that is a little bit harder to get and a lot of people want it and people like hunt it down and really search for it. And it’s a object of desire for sake nerds.

Benoit Champagne: 27:56
It feels like so because of the the unabundance of production. But if you just take a step in Suzuka, which is not really far from Nagoya I think it’s a 30 minute ish by train then you have zaku. Anywhere. They really promote their sake locally, they make sure it’s there.

John Puma: 28:17
One of my

Benoit Champagne: 28:19
But still, being local and like, inaka, so like, um, countryside, they’re still accessible via Nagoya, which is one of the biggest cities in Japan. Really easy to get access to.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:33
Alright. Benoit, I feel like I learned a lot about Zaku and about what’s going on in Quebec, Canada for sake distribution right now. I really have to say, I appreciate your dedication to spreading the word of sake under somewhat challenging conditions there. Before we wrap up, I want to make sure our listeners can learn more about your work and what you’re doing in Canada. Can you share any websites or social media where people can learn more? And

Benoit Champagne: 29:05
Yeah, sure. Nijikaisake.com is basically where I do my things. I have the Instagram, same name of course non French speakers is going to be harsh, but I answer in English, no trouble. As for my work it’s mostly uh, training, assisting translating all that’s to know about sake, but uh, I’m also As a small fan myself of Japanese culture, I’m bringing in the famous Tsugaru Bidoro, the handmade glass from Aomori, the chopsticks from Fukui called Style of Japan, so I’m bringing in some collector’s items here and then. That’s also very nice to see on Instagram if you want to enjoy.

John Puma: 29:49
Nice. That’s awesome.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:51
before we go, I have to ask you one other quick question. Your last name is Champagne. Have you, if you had to choose, would you choose a bottle of champagne or a bottle of sparkling sake?

Benoit Champagne: 30:02
I’m a converted. I’m a converted. I only have sakes in my fridge.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:07
Yes. All right.

Benoit Champagne: 30:12
right now I don’t have a single wine bottle or beer bottle in my fridge, but I have at least 50 sakes.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:18
All right.

John Puma: 30:19
Fifty. That’s right.

Benoit Champagne: 30:21
At least. At least.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:24
All right. That was the correct answer, by the way. All right. Thank you. Benoit, thank you so much for joining us. It was a pleasure to talk to you and I hope you’ll come back another time.

Benoit Champagne: 30:34
Of course, it’s always a pleasure to talk to you, even when you’re in Montreal, come and say hi. It’s always a pleasure to talk to you guys.

John Puma: 30:42
I’ll have to get over to Montreal sometime.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:44
Yeah. And so thank you, Benoit. And I want to thank our listeners as well. Thanks everyone today for tuning in to Sake Revolution. Now we’re a listener supported show, and if you would like to show your support for Sake Revolution, the best way to support us right now is to join our community on Patreon. If you’d like to learn more, please visit Patreon.com/SakeRevolution.

John Puma: 31:08
And another way that you can Support us. If you have a moment is to go over and leave us a review at Apple podcast, Spotify, charm, whatever platform you’re listening to our show on, go over there and tell people what you think it’s going to bring up a little bit of awareness about our show, which we really do appreciate. So on that note, please grab your glasses. Remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai.

Episode 173. World Sake Day comes once a year on Oct 1st. For sake fans across the globe, this is our big holiday… think Christmas-4th of July-Halloween all rolled into one! What better way for us to mark the day then with a live recording of Sake Revolution in front of a studio audience and featuring an interview and tasting with our two New York City Tojis: Brandon Doughan of Brooklyn Kura and Shinobu Kato of Kato Sake Works. Our friends and sake fans who attended this live recording at the Brooklyn Kura Taproom on Oct 1st, 2024, got to taste along with us as we explored the sake and the stories of these two outstanding brewers. We also welcomed audience questions for a fun-filled roundtable of sake exploration and learning – with lots of laughs along the way. Listen in as we celebrate Sake Day 2024 live and in person! #SakeRevolution

---

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 01:59 Guest Introductions: Brandon Doughan and Shinobu Kato

About Brandon Doughan:
Brandon Doughan is Co-Founder and Master Brewer of Brooklyn Kura Craft Sake Brewery in Brooklyn, New York where he focuses on brewing junmai and junmai ginjo sakes. During a previous career as a research biochemist, Brandon developed a deep interest in fermentation which naturally led him to sake.

contact:
https://www.brooklynkura.com/pages/contact-us

Shop Brooklyn Kura Sakes and their Kura Kin Subscription Service:
https://www.brooklynkura.com/collections/frontpage

---

About Shinobu Kato:
Shinobu was born and raised in Koenji, a small but culturally rich and dynamic neighborhood in Tokyo, Japan. It was there that he tried sake for the first time. Throughout the years, Shinobu expanded his palate and experienced plenty more sake varieties, both good and bad, especially during his college days and thereafter, when he worked for the fast-growing internet venture, Softbank. It was while working crazy hours, even by Japanese standards, that Shinobu learned the joy that a perfectly selected sake can bring to a busy day.

In 2004, Shinobu came to the US to attend the Robert H. Smith School of Business at the University of Maryland. This was where he learned about business and, outside of the classroom, the culture around American drinking. Upon graduation, he took a position at Nissan in Nashville, Tennessee, where he led a team of software engineers to deliver global projects. At a big company with a sizable IT budget, Shinobu enjoyed implementing solutions to large business problems, including an exciting two-year assignment to India.

Eventually, overtaken by his passion for sake, Shinobu left the corporate world and moved to NYC to start a sake brewery in 2016. He currently lives in the Bushwick community in Brooklyn, which reminds him of his hometown, Koenji. His wife, Ayako, lives in Seattle but visits whenever it rains there. (Update: Ayako finally moved to NYC in December 2019, after Shinobu found her a great Seahawks bar near the brewery.) When he’s not brewing sake, Shinobu enjoys cooking, DIY’ing, and writing code. Backpacking and road trips are his favorite ways to relax between making batches of sake.

contact:
https://www.katosakeworks.com/contact

Shop Kato Sake Works:
https://store.katosakeworks.com/

---

Skip to: 11:33 Sake Tasting: Kato Sake Works Junmai

Kato Sake Works Junmmai

Brewery: Kato Sake Works
Classification: Junmai
Alcohol: 16.0%
Prefecture: Brooklyn
Seimaibuai: 60%
Rice Type: Calrose
Brand: Kato

Purchase this sake: https://store.katosakeworks.com/product/junmai-750ml/24

---

Skip to: 21:55 Sake Tasting: Brooklyn Kura Grand Prairie Junmai Ginjo Namachozo

Brooklyn Kura Grand Prairie Junmai Ginjo Namachozo

Brewery: Brooklyn Kura
Classification: Junmai Ginjo Namachozo
Alcohol: 16.0%
Prefecture: Brooklyn
SMV: +0.0
Rice Type: Yamadanishiki
Seimaibuai: 60%
Brand: Brooklyn Kura
Importer/Distributor: Skurnik (USA)

Purchase this sake: https://www.brooklynkura.com/products/grand-prairie-junmai-ginjo

---

Skip to: 30:09 Audience questions

---

Skip to: 53:43 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:25
this is America’s First Sake Podcast. I am one of your intrepid hosts. My name is John Puma. You may know me from the Sake Notes or the Internet Sake Discord or Reddit’s r slash sake community. I like to build sake communities, apparently.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:38
And I’m your other host. My name is Timothy Sullivan. I’m the director of education at the Sake Studies Center. And I’m the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, we will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake, and do our best to make it fun and easy to understand. John, so good to see you.

John Puma: 0:56
Yeah, Tim, I’m sitting across the table from you which is a very rare rare treat, normally we are on zoom John, so good

Timothy Sullivan: 1:00
Well today is a very special day in the sake lover’s calendar, isn’t it? Yes, today is sake day, and we are celebrating by doing one of our very rare live sake podcast recordings. We are at the Brooklyn Kura Taproom. We have some VIP guests with us. And the best thing that we have going on today is that we have a live studio audience. So,

Shinobu Kato: 1:30
will

Timothy Sullivan: 1:34
alright.

John Puma: 1:35
my. Yeah, this will be our second time doing a live studio audience. The first time, of course, was last year at the, uh, North American craft Sake Festival down in Virginia. And yeah, it’s nice to, nice to have you guys and we’re indoors this time. It’s a little bit, slightly less hot than it was in Virginia in the middle of the summer. Uh, and it’s, it’s a lot of fun to be here.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:59
Yes, and we decided to focus, since we’re in New York City, we decided to focus our episode today on some of the toji’s of New York City. And we’ve invited the two master brewers that we have here in New York City to join us as guests. So I would like to welcome Brandon Doughan of Brooklyn Kura. Welcome, Brandon.

Brandon Doughan: 2:18
Thanks so much for having me again. uh, this is nice of

Timothy Sullivan: 2:25
And we also have Shinobu Kato from Kato Sake Works, also in New York

John Puma: 2:34
So, uh, this is nice. So the thing is that neither of you guys are strangers to this show. You guys have all been here. At least once. Shinobu’s only been here the one time. He was here in, uh, episode 51. Which I think was a really fun time to have him. I think he was celebrating his first anniversary of, of Kato Sake Works. And, uh, Brandon You’re a repeat offender.

Brandon Doughan: 2:56
I’ve been here more than Byron a Proper Sake. Is what my answer to that? I

John Puma: 3:00
I think this officially puts you ahead of him.

Brandon Doughan: 3:02
right.

John Puma: 3:04
So, we’ll have to have Byron on, you guys can battle at some point. I’m going to be excited to see that.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:09
Awesome. Well, we would like both of you to introduce yourselves to our listeners who may not have heard those previous episodes. Can you give us a quick introduction, a little bit about your background and how you got into sake, how you became a sake brewer. So, Shinobu, why don’t we start with you?

Shinobu Kato: 3:25
start? Okay, Okay, uh, my name is Shinobu Kato, and, uh, I make sake at the Kato Sake Works. Please don’t take any questions from that table, because that’s the entire Kato Sake crew, and I know that they are putting hard questions on me. But, anyway, uh, How I started? I, I, I’ve been kind of a serious drinker when I was in, in Japan, but this country doesn’t give me like enough sake that I needed, so I just started home brewing at home when I was in Tennessee. That was like 10 years ago. And then, you know, I moved to Brooklyn. Because I thought nobody’s making sake here.

John Puma: 4:06
here.

Brandon Doughan: 4:07
here.

Shinobu Kato: 4:10
So that, that, that’s my story.

Brandon Doughan: 4:12
Alright

John Puma: 4:12
mostly

Brandon Doughan: 4:14
I’m Brandon Doughan, I’m the master brewer of Brooklyn Kura. Um, I got into sake, uh, mostly out of, uh, interest in fermentation. Uh, sake is one of the weirder fermented beverages in the world. Um, so, I’m interested in all things weird fermented, um, and then I met my business partner, uh, Brian, in Japan, and we happened to wander into a very traditional sake brewery and got the bug, um, and then quit our old jobs and started making sake here in Brooklyn.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:50
How long have each of you been brewing? How Long have you been brewing? Even starting at home brewing, how many years have you been practicing your craft?

Shinobu Kato: 5:00
I think like 10 years, I guess. Yeah, but my first batch was like, you know, One bucket, one fridge, you know, I don’t know what I was doing, so just follow the instruction on the internet. And then I made something like sake. So,

Brandon Doughan: 5:16
Um, fermentation in general, since before I was 21. Um, and it’s been beer and wine and lacto fermentation. Um, even shoyu before sake. but sake really, seriously, the last ten years or so. And and it’s true, brewing sake at home is, is difficult, and it’s very difficult on that small scale to get a good result.

John Puma: 5:46
Well, um, but one thing that we find really interesting is that for people who have been to Japan and have gone to sake breweries in Japan, sake breweries are usually kind of out there. They’re kind of over in the countryside, they’re kind of, you gotta take the train to the bus, and then after the bus you’re gonna walk for a bit, and then you’re going to this parking lot, and then there’s a rice field on the right, and then the brewery’s on the left. But you guys are doing this in one of the most major metropolitan areas in the world. How’s that different? And what’s that do for you guys? What’s that mean for you guys?

Brandon Doughan: 6:18
Well, I think there’s pros and cons. Um, I think the pro is that we’re in New York City, we’re in the largest Sake market, um, in the United States. So we have people such as our audience, um, that already kind of know about sake and appreciate sake. So we’ve already got that, you know, that fan consumer base there. Um, another thing, I moved here from the West Coast. Another thing that, um, is great about New York City is its water. you know, I’m sure you’ve done many episodes on terroir for sake, but, but, but water does play an effect, um, and it doesn’t seem like the largest metropolitan area in the United States would have good water, but it is fantastic for sake

John Puma: 7:00
and Shinobu?

Shinobu Kato: 7:01
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more on the water. Oh, I didn’t do my research before I moved to, so it was just lucky, but yeah, New York City water is really good. I don’t know, in my case, oh, I grew up in Tokyo, so I never lived in the countryside, so I never thought about that. And then, you know, I spent ten years in Tennessee, so I had enough,

Timothy Sullivan: 7:21
had enough. It’s

Shinobu Kato: 7:22
you know, slow life, so I needed to come back to the city. And then I needed to do something for myself, so it was like, no option.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:32
Yeah. I know that when, when I visit brewers that are out in the country, they talk about the purity of their water, the purity of the air, you know, it’s so clean there. Uh, do you guys see any challenges being in the city? Uh, any, uh, logistical challenges or any, any practical challenges being in such a metropolitan area?

Brandon Doughan: 7:53
I guess, um, I mean, it’s, the situation of sake brewing in the United States in general is that we, we are removed from our rice source. Like, our, our rice is grown in either California or Arkansas. It has to get on a truck and get to us. Um, uh, um, you know, pretty much everything but the water has to get on a truck and get to us. And so there’s that logistical challenge. Um, yeah, what do you think?

Shinobu Kato: 8:17
Yeah, that’s true. That’s kind of weird thing because you get the rice on the palate and then that’s how you start making things in the building, and then once it’s done, it goes out from the, you know, the loading dock. So you don’t have a good connection to the, to the land or to the, you know, ecosystem that everything comes

Brandon Doughan: 8:41
of Yeah, you and I are not growing rice in the off season.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:44
So one thing you mentioned, Brandon, a moment ago was about the consumer base that we have here. And I think that’s so important. I’d love to talk to you guys a little bit about that. I know that. Shinobu at Kato Sake Works, you’re really growing a community of sake lovers in your neighborhood, and during the pandemic, especially, you had direct outreach. Can you talk a little bit about growing that community and growing sake with your locals that you have right there?

Shinobu Kato: 9:12
growing Yes, so when I started Kato Sake in NY, I had a kinda business plan or whatever the idea that, hey, maybe I should sell our sake Manhattan, you know, like a nice omakase place or something like that. And then pandemic happened, and then all the, the trains or subways were so disgusting, so you didn’t want to even touch anything in the subway. Oh, so everybody stayed at home, just, you know, walk around in your apartment. And then that’s how we started our business. And it was a great discovery to know that, oh, there are more interests. In the, just, the people on the street, they are very curious, and if there’s an opportunity right next to their apartment, they are open to try something new, right? So that was how we started, and then, you know, I’m, probably we are still doing that at our own space, that most of the customers are somewhere in, like, in the neighborhood, and uh, we just, you know, hang out with people, and then, you know, dogs, and then kids, and then it’s kind of fun, yeah.

John Puma: 10:17
And in contrast to what Shinobu did during the pandemic, Brooklyn Kura, you guys did the opposite and you reached out and started doing delivery services. You guys started, started Kura Kin at that point and started doing like, Oh, let’s try an interesting batch and get it out to people and see what they think. What was that process like for you?

Brandon Doughan: 10:35
Well, we went from, uh, Brian basically, uh, driving his car around Manhattan and getting a lot of tickets and delivering sake, uh, to those, to that period in the pandemic, um, where we started Kurakin, it’s our sake subscription, sake club. and as far as being the brewer, it, it gave me a chance to, to try some small batches. We have a few small tanks. It gave me a chance to experiment more because we had our kind of our big products that we had were starting to refine and make consistent. but you know, I’m a new brewer. I don’t have a hundred years of history, uh, behind me. so it’s always good to, to try new things and, and try new rice, try new yeast, try two new techniques. And the Kurakin has really kind of given me that opportunity to experiment. and mostly succeed in those experiments and then, and then have, you know, get feedback from our, from our members.

John Puma: 11:33
so Tim, uh, I think it is time for us to taste a sake, is that

Timothy Sullivan: 11:39
Yes, we, uh, have the great pleasure to taste two sakes, one from Brandon, one from Shinobu, and uh, I’ve remember many visits to Japan, tasting sake with the master brewer who made it is something really special. And we’re gonna have that opportunity today and share it with our studio audience. Is everyone excited to taste with the tojis?? Yes. Alright. so I’m going to pour the first sake from Kato Sake Works. This is a Junmai, and we have to do our what could you call it? This is our signature it’s

John Puma: 12:21
it’s our signature ASMR

Timothy Sullivan: 12:22
Yes. So we’re going to see if we can capture this on audio.

John Puma: 12:30
Pretty good, pretty good. I think, yeah, I think it did it.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:35
So I’m going to pass that

Shinobu Kato: 12:36
Do I have to do the same thing If

John Puma: 12:39
can, that would be awesome, but, you know.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:43
Shinobu san, we’re going to start with you. And you have brought us your Junmai sake from Kato Sake Works. And I noticed you have a special limited label on the bottle, so I’d love to hear about that. But can you introduce us to this first sake? Okay.

Shinobu Kato: 13:02
Sure. So this is our Junmai. And although you’ve been saying that I made this Junmai, actually it’s more Maxine sitting over there making this sake, so, yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:13
Yay,

13:13
Maxine! Maxine yeah, but

Shinobu Kato: 13:15
anyway, uh, so this is our flagship Junmai, and we use 60 percent Calrose. Uh, Calrose is just like ordinary eating rice that everybody eat at the, you know, whatever the restaurant that you go. So, uh, and then, uh, although we call it Junmai, it’s Technically Junmai, Ginjo, but we just want to make things simple. Oh, very classic, a little bit bolder, had more sugar and acidity, I think. Oh, so it’s a little bit louder, sake, that when I explain to the customers, this is more like American style because you are loud and then noisy. Yeah. I understand,

John Puma: 13:52
yeah, I noticed, I noticed on your label you actually, um, suggest, uh, in addition to taste like and pairs like, you have a pairing for music, or what it sounds like, keyboard riffs.

Shinobu Kato: 14:05
yeah, so that’s what we do because, uh, more than half of our team members are musicians. Not me, I don’t play any music instruments, but everybody else does that. Uh, especially James and, uh, Maxine. Uh, but anyway, it’s kind of fun when we are doing the tasting notes. You know, tasting note, sometimes people take it so seriously, and we want people to take tasting note more personable, right? Depending on what kind of diet you grew up with, your Pairing might be completely different. In the same way, music is very personal, so we just want to suggest to people that, hey, take the tasting note more like how you listen to music.

John Puma: 14:44
awesome. You

Timothy Sullivan: 14:45
That’s awesome. I, you know, I noticed there’s some brewers and some breweries that don’t want to focus as much on the stats that the sake geeks like us really love. Like, what’s the amino acid? What’s the rice milling percentage? What’s the acidity? How do you feel about that in general?

Shinobu Kato: 15:02
That’s what we probably do. You know, Maxine has all the data, but at the end of the day we are like, yeah, it tastes right, you know?

Timothy Sullivan: 15:12
you. Awesome. So, that was a wonderful introduction. So, that was a wonderful introduction So, why don’t we take this, uh, in the glass, and let’s give it a smell.

John Puma: 15:24
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:25
So there’s some lovely rice aromas. That must be that calrose coming through. Now, you work a lot with calrose. Is that the only rice you use?

Shinobu Kato: 15:34
So far, yes, except one time we didn’t get cow roast on time and we have to go to Chinatown to get the Oh no, but we still get the Calrose, just a different polish. That’s,

John Puma: 15:45
get is because we polish. Is

Shinobu Kato: 15:50
Chinese

John Puma: 15:51
Chinatown

Timothy Sullivan: 15:51
Is this the Chinatown edition?

John Puma: 15:54
about

Shinobu Kato: 15:54
This is the one that we get pallet on the right day edition.

John Puma: 15:58
for

Timothy Sullivan: 15:58
wonderful. Now, now talk to us about this label. You did a special labeling for Sake Day. Is that right?

Shinobu Kato: 16:04
right? Yes. So, you know, sake day is special, and then people want to make a, uh, special thing about sake day and sake week, but, you know, So we have a story about how sake day started from like a, you know, brewing season in Japan and how traditionally it was made. Oh, but at the same time, probably same is true for Brandon, but we make sake every day, every season. So, you know, the original meaning of the sake day, the starting of the season, doesn’t mean anything. to us, right? So our message is, yeah, today’s a great special day and we wanna celebrate today as a sake day, but can we make sake day as 365 every day so that we can celebrate this every day?

Timothy Sullivan: 16:52
I love that. Yeah. So, while we have it in the glass, let’s taste the Junmai from Kato Sake

John Puma: 16:58
let’s.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:58
together. So, It’s lovely. Yeah. So, you work magic with calrose, I have to say.

Shinobu Kato: 17:06
Maxine did. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:08
I see.

John Puma: 17:11
Maxine does a lot of magic with Calrose and, and yeah, it’s, it’s been interesting to see, like you’ve been using Cal Roses, uh, for as long as, uh, Kato Saki works has been going, but so many of your SAS tastes different from one another. And so it’s so interesting that you’re, a lot of, uh, north American breweries get excited about new types of rices, new types of Polish. I said, you’re like, I got this rice, I’m gonna do all these different things with it. What was your, your thought was like, I know I can get this, or was it more along the lines of like, I see something more with this?

Shinobu Kato: 17:40
think initially it was more like logistical and economical reason, right? You want to make the same sake consistently, but we don’t have a luxury to have a big batch, so we have to make a small batch like regularly. How can we get the rice, the same type of rice? Consistently supplied and then we don’t have a big warehouse so we don’t have a space to get like five pallets of rice, right? So we need to have like half pallets every week kind of situation.

John Puma: 18:12
option

Shinobu Kato: 18:13
Only option was calrose, because Yamada Nishiki and another Sake were not that consistent, right? And then we did not have a luxury to, hey, let’s do this for this batch and then let’s do something else for other batch, then we don’t have a, uh, like restaurants that trust us, like, hey, your sake, like number 14, always taste the same, right? So kind of, from that kind of, uh, reason that we started using calrose as a base ingredient. And then I fell in love with the story, or history, of Calrose, like, okay, you know, Japanese immigration, and then how it was adapted in the U. S. culture. And without Calrose as an eating rice, there was no California roll. Without California roll, there’s no omakase in Manhattan right now. And without having an omakase in Manhattan, maybe there’s not two sake breweries in Brooklyn right now. So, I like that story, and I like that idea, and we still don’t have a space to store any other type of rice at the brewery yet. Yeah, so that’s another reason.

John Puma: 19:12
That’ll be the third iteration of the brewery

Timothy Sullivan: 19:13
Yes.

Brandon Doughan: 19:14
I mean, I, I love Calrose, um, we use a lot of it as well, and, and I think of it as the American sake mai. like, there, there’s, there are, how many, what’s the count now for small sake American brewers now? Is it 20, 20, 27, so there’s 27 small American sake brewers, and a lot of them are very small, and, and, like, working on minimal budgets, and, and, calrose is, is an affordable rice. Um, uh, Yamada nishiki is an expensive rice. Um, so, so, you know, Americans have leaned into calrose, and I think they’re doing wonderful things with it, and maybe people don’t think it’s going to be a good sake rice because it’s also a food rice, but it is, and we just, we just had to learn how to use it.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:02
Absolutely. I do want to ask you one more question about your sake, Shinobu. I want you to speak a little bit about the sweetness to dryness profile, because what it comes through for me is this is not a bone dry sake, and there’s a hint of noticeable sweetness there. So what’s, what’s your feeling on that balance between sweet and dry?

Shinobu Kato: 20:20
You know, there’s a big discussion going on in the internet about this. Dryness of sake in like a Japanese like a sake geek board kind of thing. So but anyway, that’s completely different topic, but so our sake probably has more sugar compared to, uh, like a typical mainstream, uh, Junmai sake, uh, but also has more acidity, yeah. So depending on what kind of drinking background you have, you find this sake dry or you find sake, you find this sake sweet. And, uh, still we are learning that question. We have a customer like, hey, give me the driest sake you have, and I, I I gave up, so I usually give like three different styles and you tell me. And each time, people have very different answers. Yeah, and some people think that this sake is too sweet, some people think that this sake is dry,

Timothy Sullivan: 21:17
Yeah.

Shinobu Kato: 21:18
and I’m completely confused.

John Puma: 21:21
I’m hungry for

Timothy Sullivan: 21:25
Yes. Good answer.

John Puma: 21:26
very, it’s a confusion,

Timothy Sullivan: 21:29
Yes. Uh, I heard, Uh, there’s a very famous quote, the customer is always right in matters of taste

John Puma: 21:34
funny word.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:36
Excellent. Well, uh, Kato San, this is a fantastic Junmai. Very, very drinkable. Congratulations to you and Maxine. It’s, it’s very, very delicious. Very good. Yes. So, John, should we move on to the Brooklyn Kura?

John Puma: 21:54
think we should.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:55
right. So from Brooklyn Kura, we are going to be tasting a Junmai Ginjo, the Grand Prairie. So let’s give this a pour and do our audio.

John Puma: 22:06
are you going to do? So while we’re getting that poured out there, Brandon.

Brandon Doughan: 22:18
Yes.

John Puma: 22:19
Grand Prairie. What’s with the name?

Brandon Doughan: 22:22
Um, this name was coined, uh, by a former bartender of ours, Sam. Um, and it refers to the area in, Arkansas where rice is grown. So it’s a, it’s a flat area in eastern Arkansas where the Mississippi has been meandering for millions of years and made And, like, ideal rice paddy growing area.

John Puma: 22:44
All right. tell us a little bit about this. Junmai Ginjo Yamadanishiki. What

Brandon Doughan: 22:47
so, so, this is, Grand Prairie is, um, made with Yamada Nishiki, from Arkansas, milled to 60%, and, and, it changes a little, a little bit each time. I’m really trying to, like, Capture what American yamanashiki tastes like. Again, I know you’ve done terroir or, or, or like, like what is contributing to the taste of sake, and it’s complicated. And it’s difficult for me to drink a sake and guess what the rice is.

John Puma: 23:21
umhum

Brandon Doughan: 23:22
But, but, you know, we, rices available to us, and, and with this particular ginjo, um, I’m trying to like, Understand what Yamadanishiki tastes like. So I use a yeast that’s, that’s kind of simple. Um, I’m, I’m trying to like, let, let the rice be its own thing. Um, and, and just trying to balance the rice, uh, the, the, the glucose and the acidity to kind of show that off.

John Puma: 23:50
Well, Tim, the aroma,

Timothy Sullivan: 23:51
Yeah, let’s get the aroma.

John Puma: 23:53
so I think this also has a lot of that, a little bit of that Rice-iness

Timothy Sullivan: 23:56
Hmm.

John Puma: 23:57
but it’s a different rice. You can tell that right away.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:01
Absolutely. And I always, I always find when I teach sake classes that I learn so much by side by side comparisons. So I’m actually going to go back to Kato and smell this one, smell them side by side. Calrose versus Yamadanishiki I think the aroma for the, uh, Grand Prairie with Yamada Nishiki is a little more lifted and a little more perfumed than the Calrose.

John Puma: 24:23
And the calrose comes in, it’s a little, it’s the aroma, it makes me think of something to be a little more tangy, a little more sweet

Timothy Sullivan: 24:29
Hmm.

John Puma: 24:29
Whereas this one feels a little more, uh, a little more like that, that sweet rice,

Timothy Sullivan: 24:33
Yeah, so.

John Puma: 24:34
sweet rice.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:35
Let’s give the Grand Prairie a taste. Yeah, so I think with both of these sakes the word that keeps popping to my mind is balance, like this great balance between sweetness and dryness and acidity and umami. There’s, there’s wonderful balance and I think that that’s what makes a great sake. Those people who search for like the ultimate super dry, or like that super, super sweet. I think that’s a stool with, you know, the legs are unbalanced. But if you have, uh, the acidity, the sugar, and the umami all in balance, it creates a wonderful experience for sake. And both of these sakes, for me, represent, Great balance. What do you think, John?

John Puma: 25:19
I agree, so neither of these are wild or crazy style.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:25
know,

John Puma: 25:26
they are not to dry or too sweet they are right where you want them They are both really approachable.. I think that’s a good way to put it. I find it really interesting that, um, so Brandon’s using the, you know, the American version of the king of Japanese Sakamai. And Shinobu’s using the American Sakamai. And I think it’s like, it’s, it’s a little interesting about that. I think it’s a little fun that you guys, it’s a fun little thing we get to play with here today.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:56
So, as we’re winding up our sake portion, if anyone has questions that they’ve written out, please raise your hand, and the staff will come around and collect those and bring those up to us. Uh, we encourage everyone to submit questions.

John Puma: 26:09
Um, yeah, So while they’re taking care of that, there’s a couple things we wanted to chat with you guys about. And that is, you guys are, you know, we’re in New York, you guys are in the biggest metropolitan area in the US, we’re going to call it that. Um, LA may argue, but they’re wrong. Now, um, but you guys are looking to get outside and share your sake with the rest of the world, Brandon, you were just in Japan. You were pouring sake at a Japanese event called Sake Jump. And Shinobu, you just got done releasing your sake. In Puerto Rico, which was not on my bingo card, but it’s super cool. I’m really

Shinobu Kato: 26:46
excited

John Puma: 26:47
about that. So I want to ask each of you kind of like what went on with that and how that’s been for you guys. So we’ll start with Brandon and then we’ll go over to Shinobu.

Brandon Doughan: 26:56
Yeah, so, Japan stays hot much longer than I thought it does. So that was the first thing I remember about Sake Jump, it was extremely hot. Um, but it was an incredible opportunity. Sake Jump is an event. tries to draw in, like, young, innovative brewers. there were a lot of, of, of this, uh, doberoku license, this new doberoku license in Japan. these young guys there, I’m flattered that they thought I was young to invite us.

John Puma: 27:25
Um,

Brandon Doughan: 27:25
But we were the first non Japanese sake brewery to pour at this event, and it was just overwhelmingly positive. I think, I think, you know, as maybe we all know, uh, sake in Japan is on the decline. I mean, the cool kids are drinking IPA and Japanese whiskey, um, but, but this really is kind of, it seemed cool to me, um, and, and, and then like people were really excited about it and they’re really enthused, as I, as I poured sake for them, it was just, people were amazed that somebody outside of Japan was make, even making sake, and they really loved the sake. So, it was a really like. Positive, uh, uh, supportive Event That’s That’s

John Puma: 28:07
awesome. So Shinobu, tell me about Puerto Rico.

Shinobu Kato: 28:11
It was good. that location That was my first vacation for like five years since we opened the brewery. Yeah, so it was good. Yeah, and I made that as a half business trip. But, you know, the ultimate purpose was to go to the beach.

Brandon Doughan: 28:31
Laughter.

John Puma: 28:33
you succeed?

Shinobu Kato: 28:33
Yeah, yeah, but, uh, you know, we, our, our brewery is still small, you know, oh, and then, uh, the capacity wise, we don’t have a capacity to distribute anything outside of New York City, uh, or maybe New York State at the most, right, so we don’t have any plan to go anywhere outside of New York State, but I just wanted to have a vacation, and, uh, you know, we have a lot of, But, you know, Bushwick is very Puertorican, right? Yeah, so, oh, my neighbor’s Puertorican, you know, uh, there’s like a food stand, Puertorican, like a, what’s it called, pincho stand, and then restaurants, everything. So we wanted to kind of appreciate and then kind of, uh, contribute, contribute back to the community who accepted us as, like, a new business. And then, you know, there are a couple of regulars that, hey, I. I know somebody who wants to have a sake in Puerto Rico, so can you ship it? And we figured it out and then I went there and then had a nice vacation.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:38
Shinobu, that’s what we call work life balance. Yes. Very, very well done.

John Puma: 29:46
Tokyo? No.

Brandon Doughan: 29:47
little bit.

John Puma: 29:47
Okay, good.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:49
Work life balance.

John Puma: 29:50
That’s also a balance.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:51
Well, We think it’s wonderful that both of you are reaching outside of New York, and it is a wonderful indication of the growth of the sake industry, It just gets me thinking, like, when we have our reunion live episode in five years, in ten years, where are you going to be selling? Yeah, it’s going to be amazing. So, John, we got some questions from the audience

John Puma: 30:11
We did,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:12
did you, uh, do you want to go first

John Puma: 30:14
Sure, sure. So, so first I have to like, there’s this one I need to just kind of get out of the way. And, um, that is, somebody asked if there will be a collaboration sake between Kato Sake works

Timothy Sullivan: 30:23
and

John Puma: 30:23
Brooklyn Kura, and, uh, it happened already.

Brandon Doughan: 30:26
Oh, it’s

30:26
gonna happen again It’s gonna

Shinobu Kato: 30:28
happen

Brandon Doughan: 30:28
It’s gonna continue to happen.

Shinobu Kato: 30:29
It’s recorded, so happening

Brandon Doughan: 30:31
No, we had a great time. Uh, we made a sake called, uh, pizza bagel and and that refers to our common ingredient, which is our, uh, our New York City water. Um, so, so we were just talking, I had a tour with Kato Sake Works, um, earlier today, and we were talking about doing this collaboration again, and I know that a lot of other American sake breweries listen to this podcast, and I think we should all be doing that. Like I think we should, like I will do a collaboration with every other sake brewery in the United States, and we should all be like collaborating and doing something together.

John Puma: 31:08
sounds like a lot of fun. I, I’m down for that. I want to, I want to taste those sakes.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:13
Can you remind us, that Pizza, Bagel, sake, that collaboration you did before? How did that work? What part did each of you do?

Shinobu Kato: 31:21
So at that time we started talking about the collaboration and Brandon was like, Hey, we gonna make. Moto, so can you make moromi on our space? And we were like, no, because your moto size is our moromi size, so there’s no space in the tank. So we did a reverse, and then we made a moto, and then put into the, like a 20 liter Cambro, and Johnny, I, and then Evan took an Uber from Bushwick, and then at the very end at the industry city, uh, you know. It was not fully, properly, uh, secured. And then Johnny got all the moto splash. Yes, yes. But we put together the, the bucket into, uh, the tank. Uh, and then we made that from there. So from there you did take, took care of everything. So we did a little bit easier part. I mean, you took care of everything.

John Puma: 32:20
So it was technically a three part collaboration. It was Kato Sake Works, Brooklyn Kura,

Brandon Doughan: 32:26
and uber, yeah, I know. We owe 10%. I mean, I think, I think we do it again. We both have a little more setup space now. I think we can share the responsibilities a

Shinobu Kato: 32:40
That’s true. Equally

John Puma: 32:41
Mm hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:42
Okay, I got a great question here. This question has two hearts drawn on it, too. It says, for Brandon and Shinobu, what are your favorite styles of sake to drink versus to brew? Have brewing challenges ever affected your drinking preferences? So let’s do the, that’s a great question, let’s do the first part first. What are your favorite styles of sake to drink versus to brew? Brandon?

Brandon Doughan: 33:08
I enjoy drinking all styles of sake

John Puma: 33:12
That’s very diplomatic

Brandon Doughan: 33:13
I, It’s true though. I i, mean, my friends are both of you and, and like other sake, Somms and, and, and, and, and the whole New York sake community. So I go out with people and, and it’s like, oh, I’ve got this weird bottle, like. Jamie from Skurnik. Well, I’ve been keeping this bottle under my desk for three years, and he’ll pour me something, and it’s, the story’s fantastic. It’s good. I only want one glass of it. But I enjoy, like, all styles of drinking sake, and then my favorite style to produce, um, I really do like Yamahai and Kimoto, making Yamahai and Kimoto, just because it’s like making a sake before you make the sake. It’s good. It’s got its own, Entire fermentation process that happens just to make the Shubo, uh, before you go into it and, and like, and to see how, you know, that translates, it affects the fermentation of the main fermentation in the final taste. So

John Puma: 34:08
Maybe to do a collab with Proper. You and Byron in the same room, doing a little Kimoto. I

Brandon Doughan: 34:14
that’ll be

Shinobu Kato: 34:14
that’d be fun.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:16
Shinobu, how about for you, styles you like to drink versus what you like to brew?

Shinobu Kato: 34:21
So drink, to drink, probably Junmai,

Timothy Sullivan: 34:26
Junmai, Junmai,

Shinobu Kato: 34:29
That’s what I probably end up when I’m, like, in Japan going to, like, small izakaya by myself and then, you know, have some Otsumami and then drink something. I’d probably end up the night with Junmai. Maybe room temperature warm or something like that, but yeah, yeah, I like Junmai. Uh, to make, I agree that, you know, Kimoto, Yamahai, all those kind of weird stuff, that’s more fun. You know, it’s, it’s fun. Very, you know, unpredictable, that requires a lot of care, right? Oh, and of course Maxine can tell because she has to do that. The hand, hand mixing and the stuff, you know, I do that sometimes too. But, yeah, but that’s a fun thing to brew.

John Puma: 35:15
Nice. So, uh, we got another question here and this is, um, I, I really like this. So let me try to get this right. So what is your favorite happy accident story about making sake? Now, not not disaster stories, but like happy accident stories.

Timothy Sullivan: 35:29
accidents. Who wants

John Puma: 35:32
Who wants to go first?

Shinobu Kato: 35:36
I have probably ten accidents, I don’t know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m trying to think of a happy one.

Brandon Doughan: 35:46
So

Shinobu Kato: 35:47
Well, so far we are lucky that any accidents that we’ve done Had were not disaster, and what we got was something that we didn’t intend, but tasted interesting. And, uh, we, as a brewer, had a bit of higher standard that, hey, this didn’t taste like what we intended. Dump it, right? But actually, you know, it’s more like it didn’t taste like what we intended, but still within the boundary of good craft sake. Yeah, and the customer kind of liked it.

John Puma: 36:30
Kusuma

Shinobu Kato: 36:35
Yeah, but one time, like, Johnny was like, No, we should dump this. And then I was like, Okay, that’s a lot of things to dump. Maybe let’s try to pour the tap room still in people Liked it.

Brandon Doughan: 36:45
I’m trying to hang on to some of those, because, because if you put them in the back of the walk in or something, like, you could come back to them six months later, and, they’re remarkable. Like it, it’s rare that that have There’s most are still terrible, but, but, um, I, I think for me, the, the, the Whole Kura Kin, the thing we have, the fact that we have these small tanks, it’s, I mean, maybe they’re all accidents, but like, we’re, we’re just making stuff up. We’re not, we’re not going off of any thing, out of a book or something. And we were following a general recipe. So, we’re also, I think, the exciting thing about being in the US, or at least outside of Japan, is, is that everything we do is new. Like, we’re, we’re like, like, this year’s Calrose or this year’s Yamada is like, relatively very very new, and so we’re going to find out about it. And then, and then, you know, whatever yeast we can get, you know, however we are personally growing koji, like, all that’s going to affect it. So, so. It’s, it’s kind of all of an accident and, and, um, and I dunno, they’re all my favorite accidents.

John Puma: 37:52
all your favorite accidents? Okay. This is

Timothy Sullivan: 37:54
question. These are great. You guys did amazing. Thank you for all these questions. So this is another good one. When you first started brewing, were there any Japanese breweries that inspired your style or your methods? Thank you. That’s a very good question. So did you, yeah. did you, get any inspiration from a particular brewery in Japan when you first started brewing, or any breweries you wanted to emulate?

Shinobu Kato: 38:26
I’ll go first, so when I started was when Around the time that there was, like, high acidity sake is kind of becoming a trend in Japan and I was already moved to the U. S. I didn’t have a chance to go back there as often, but I went back there and my friend took me to some, like, cool, like, hidden sake, not sake bar, but like, izakaya in Osaka, and it’s crazy. They had a pool table, and on the pool table, there’s, like, a, like, a train, model trains, like, running But like a small like, you know, whatever the gauge train kind of thing. Yeah, but they had a like a all this like high acidity sake that I’ve never heard of. Yeah, like, you know, what was that? Like aramasa and zaku and those kind of things. And then I was like, oh, I kind of like this, uh, you know, the, the acid cutting through the, the palate. So that was one influence that I got. And then also, oh Dassai.,

John Puma: 39:29
um

Shinobu Kato: 39:29
Not the flavor, you know, flavor is great, you know, don’t, don’t get me wrong, but the production side. So I visited their facility and then I saw how they do things. And then that was like, Oh God, that’s interesting. Very, you know, that works for us like a small breweries. Oh, so there’s a lot of like, you know, uh, light bulbs moment to me.

Brandon Doughan: 39:53
of thing. Yeah, I think, um, for It’s not really about any particular drinking experience, but it is some early visits. Like, if it’s your first experience of making sake, it’s an emotional thing that sticks with you. So I had a couple, Early sake breweries that I visited, Takashima Shuzo is one. Um, and then also, um, like I have maybe less exposure to sake breweries in Japan than Shinobu does. But, uh, We have a cheerleader from Japan that comes over once in a while. His name is Kuji san from Nanbu Bijin. And so, like, we, like, all the American sake brewers know him because he comes and he’s, and he is really trying to, like, make sake brewing outside of Japan a thing, and, and he’s, like, very immediately inspirational. So, so I think Nanbu Bijin is probably an influence for me and several other breweries in the United States.

Timothy Sullivan: 40:57
Kujisan on the podcast, and he is a force to be reckoned with. Yes.

John Puma: 41:02
quite a character.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:03
Yes.

John Puma: 41:06
All right, so we’ve got one that they specify this is for the toji and they underlined it. So Tim, this is not for you or me. What is your favorite and or least favorite step of the sake making process?

Brandon Doughan: 41:18
Uh, favorite and or least favorite?

John Puma: 41:20
And or.

Brandon Doughan: 41:21
Well, I mean, I’m speaking for everybody. Cleaning is the most frequent and least favorite part, but it’s a necessary part. part.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:29
ha ha. ha.

Brandon Doughan: 41:30
Um, actually my favorite part I think is Tim’s least favorite part. And it’s Koji making Am I right? That’s right.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:38
I called it sweating to the oldies. That was, shh, yes. we

Shinobu Kato: 41:42
favorite, uh, Well, I hope the The company’s not listening to this podcast, but, uh, we use a software called ECOS. That’s like a software to, to get the log of everything, because we have to report how many alcohol we produced, and then, you know, so there’s like a background, uh, information management. And then after you do all the physical labors of fun stuff, You have to key in everything, like, okay, how many koji you made, how many, you know, koji spores you used, and then all those things, and then that’s, everybody’s like, okay, oh, I still have to log in everything after the long day of the labor. Yeah.

Brandon Doughan: 42:26
And it’s a program made initially for beer.

Shinobu Kato: 42:29
yeah, yeah.

Brandon Doughan: 42:30
there’s no good software for sake, in the United States at least.

John Puma: 42:34
Sounds like my day job.

Shinobu Kato: 42:35
It’s

Timothy Sullivan: 42:37
that’s your least favorite. What’s your favorite part of sake brewing, Shinobu?

Shinobu Kato: 42:42
I don’t know, lunch? We, we,

Brandon Doughan: 42:44
we

Shinobu Kato: 42:46
Yeah, we, we cook lunch every day together. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, like all the brewers and then some bartenders who’s there, we cook lunch all together every day. And, uh, yeah, yeah, sometimes we make fancy lunch too, you know. Yeah, on Friday, Joni goes to the farmer’s market on the way and then gets some nice vegetables and we make fancy lunch. So, Maybe you should come by and do the podcast on Friday.

Brandon Doughan: 43:12
have a question.

Timothy Sullivan: 43:15
I’ll bring some vegetables. Okay, moving on. Um, let’s go for another question. Now this is a little bit more of a technical question, uh, but I think it’s still really interesting. Can you compare New York City’s water profile to a specific region in Japan that might be similar? And, uh, how might that be with hardness, softness, et cetera? What are your thoughts on the water,

John Puma: 43:39
That’s a

Brandon Doughan: 43:39
mean, it’s,

Shinobu Kato: 43:40
Hiroshima? so?

Brandon Doughan: 43:41
oh, you think so? Because, because the hardness number for new York is 24? So, okay, Hiroshima, all right. Hiroshima is so close to, to, um, like the Miracle Water, like it’s so close to Kobe,

Shinobu Kato: 43:56
so that’s but it’s super soft. Okay, so there’s a between those areas, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:02
okay. The Tojis conferring amongst amongst themselves.

Shinobu Kato: 44:06
Yeah, but definitely not nada. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:10
can, you translate those numbers for the rest of us now?

Brandon Doughan: 44:12
well, okay. So, so I’ll, I can, I can mostly speak about New York in, in, and the water. Our water is on the soft side, so there’s a hardness number. It’s 24. It’s a, it’s a medium soft number. Um. And I’m not, I won’t speak to Japan. You, you, you two probably couldn’t speak better to the water regions of Japan, but like I, my, my understanding is like northern Japan, it tends to be softer. Is that

John Puma: 44:37
That’s what I’ve heard

Timothy Sullivan: 44:41
other last questions there, John? Um, so,

John Puma: 44:44
Um, well, we’ve got a So this one’s a little Well, I’m just gonna I don’t know if it’s morbid or not. Brandon. As a neighbor of and volunteer at Greenwood Cemetery. Oh, yes. Can you, can you tell us more about the Greenwood Kimoto and how it was developed? Was it just like you, it was a name because it was placed nearby or were there something to it? Did you feel particularly goth that day?

Timothy Sullivan: 45:08
spelled about way,

John Puma: 45:10
in the question.

Brandon Doughan: 45:11
I mean, I always feel about 10 percent goth, but, but the way, the way that you make Kimoto is you, and particularly the way we make it here, is we take our tubs outside, and we have a portion of our shubo outside

John Puma: 45:25
uh huh.

Brandon Doughan: 45:25
and we have little kids stomp on it. and get the initial mixing going, and

John Puma: 45:29
adults, and also adults. How many people here have stomped on the rice outside? All right, so we’ve

Timothy Sullivan: 45:34
a few

John Puma: 45:36
Not, not as many as I thought, there’d be a little more.

Brandon Doughan: 45:38
And, and, yeah, there’s not many kids here, so. My favorite part about it is it involves, uh, child labor, unpaid child labor. in the production of alcohol, um, but, but, but what’s happening there is, is, you know, we’ve just taken rice and steamed it, so it’s sterile, and we bring it outside, so, so there’s bacteria falling on it. Um, and, and that kicks off the lacto fermentation process, or the very complicated Kimoto version of that. Um, and then that produces acid and makes a nice space for yeast to grow. So that’s, that’s how Kimoto is, is done. Um, but we’re in New York City, um, we’ve got a little bit of a, like a pretty courtyard here. Um, but it’s, the rest of it’s kind of a concrete jungle, it’s, it’s not a lot of like, like nature here. But very close to us. is a very old and beautiful cemetery. So that’s gothic, I guess. But it’s very lovely to walk around Greenwood Cemetery. Um, I’ve tried to collect yeast out of the cemetery. Um, it’s, like, it is South Brooklyn’s nature space. For better or worse. But it is, um, and so I’m like kind of paying homage to where we are. And that’s part of the story.

John Puma: 47:00
Okay. So we have, um, there are two, um, Two separate questions for each of our toji today. Um, and uh, so since, um, let’s go Kato san, were there any, were there any issues with the climate when you make sake every day? Uh, because you’re making sake year round, sometimes it’s wintertime, sometimes it’s summertime and you’re in New York and you got to deal with, um, with adjusting for that as, as the things go on. Does that mess with fermentation for you? Do you have to make adjustments for that?

Shinobu Kato: 47:35
for that? Okay.

John Puma: 47:38
Climate in like keeping your, uh, keeping your, your

Shinobu Kato: 47:41
I know climate is a problem as a kind of much bigger, bigger, bigger topic.

John Puma: 47:46
but

Shinobu Kato: 47:47
I know that Climate brewery. Yeah. Yeah.

John Puma: 47:50
Since, since Japanese breweries just brew in the wintertime and you’re

Shinobu Kato: 47:53
I, I know

John Puma: 47:54
days a year, You know, you gotta adjust.

Shinobu Kato: 47:57
You know, as Brandon said, we don’t have like 100 years of experience, so having more controlled environment or climate, meaning like climate in the building, helps us a lot. You know, of course, traditionally, it’s been sake is made in more like a natural setup, so you know, you cannot control the temperature of your tank. It’s up to the, you know, how cold or warm this winter is, poses a lot of extra uncertainty and invaluables for us who does not have that. You know, hundred years of log of how to, you know, work with a different changing environment, right? Oh, and then there are a few things that we can control as a brewer, and climate, or like climate meaning like a more like a, you know, the system climate, is one of the few things that we can control. We cannot control the microbes, but at least we can control the, the, like a climate, right? Temperature, humidity, whatever we have in the tank and in the space. So, that’s a big benefit for, like, modern brewers.

John Puma: 49:11
uh, I, I, brandon, has, anything about your brewing process changed since Brooklyn Kura’s partnership with Hakkaisan? Uh,

Brandon Doughan: 49:22
yes. Um, A, we’ve gone from a 3, 000 square foot space to a 20, 000 square foot space. Um, and, and, and with a lot more machines, so it’s, it’s been a challenge this, this last year to wrap our heads around, um, using all this new equipment, getting it up and running. We worked with really great contractors to build our space, but none of them have ever built a sake brewery before.

John Puma: 49:50
ha ha

Brandon Doughan: 49:50
So we’ve had to like, you know, kind of learn a lot of new things. And then the partnership with Hakaisan is we’re fortunate to have some very technical Kuribito come and help us get to this new scale. And it’s really been a collaboration. So I’ve, I’ve, I’ve like, I’ve been very open to changing how I’ve been making sake. Um, particularly going from 500 kilograms, like the biggest batches we made previously, to 2, 000 kilograms. and I think there’s also a change in the sake brewing on scale. So, we were mentioning earlier that it’s really hard to make a drinkable sake at home. Like, I, I know that probably a lot of people listening to this podcast have tried, it’s, it’s, it’s tough, so it’s not, you’re not, like, doing a bad job, it’s just really, really hard. Um, so, so as you get up to larger scales, a lot of things take care of themselves. At 2, 000 kilograms, the temperature is more moderate, it’s a large thermal mass, so it’s easier to control the temperature in the long range. and so, I already forgot your question, but like, but the way our sake has changed is, is, I think, I really like how Timothy put it at once, it’s, it’s, It’s, our newer versions of the same sake we’re brewing are a softer expression. I think that’s true. I think it’s more rounded. It’s, it’s just, it’s just the scale of it now. and additionally, we, we can, we used to just lay the rice out, uh, like, like, like Shinobu, you were doing now, and, and, and that’s rough in August to cool it down to get it to sake brewing temperatures. but, but now we, we have the, We’re very fortunate to have machines that cool the rice down very quickly. So we, so, so, our seasonal brewing is more normalized now, so we’re, we’re, we’re trying to like, uh, uh, figure that out to be consistent brewers all year round.

Timothy Sullivan: 51:49
Yeah. That’s

Shinobu Kato: 51:50
when we were doing the expansion, that yeah, there’s a lot of small problems, but once you’re bigger, those things will go away. And then actually, they went away for us, too.

Brandon Doughan: 52:02
great,

Shinobu Kato: 52:02
Yeah, so I fully agree with what you told me. Yeah,

John Puma: 52:06
Well, Shinobu, I remember when you were in your first space, you had your, your, your, like, little, like, uh, koji closet it was like, it was probably smaller than the table we’re sitting at right now. It was very like a, like a, like a small, like a, like a train set area. And, uh, it was like, wow, you’re making koji in that? And you’re like, yes, I am.

Timothy Sullivan: 52:24
ha ha

Brandon Doughan: 52:25
And

John Puma: 52:26
And it’s delicious.

Brandon Doughan: 52:27
this

Timothy Sullivan: 52:29
this has been absolutely fantastic. John, I don’t know about you, but I cannot think of a better way to spend sake day than with Brandon and Shinobu and this wonderful audience we have here with us today.

Brandon Doughan: 52:43
come and record with us.

Shinobu Kato: 52:45
so fantastic

Timothy Sullivan: 52:46
all.

Shinobu Kato: 52:50
time

John Puma: 52:50
still wrapping my head around the audience part.

Timothy Sullivan: 52:52
Yes, it’s fantastic.

John Puma: 52:55
this way towards you guys.

Timothy Sullivan: 52:57
It’s been so fantastic to have you guys, Brandon, Shinobu. We want to thank you so much for making the time on Sake day to come and record with us. It’s so great to get your insight, to taste your sake with you, so special. And I just can’t thank you enough for being with us today, so thank you very

Brandon Doughan: 53:15
Oh, thanks for having us,

Shinobu Kato: 53:16
so very much. Thanks for having us. Some really insightful and

Timothy Sullivan: 53:26
All right. now now

John Puma: 53:29
you everybody for providing some really insightful and interesting PG 13 questions. We

Timothy Sullivan: 53:35
Yes, you’re, you’re, this, this crowd is going to put us out of business with our sake questions here.

John Puma: 53:40
we We’re just gonna steal their ideas and incorporate them in the show.

Timothy Sullivan: 53:43
Yes, well, it was so wonderful to taste with both of you, with our beautiful audience. John, always a pleasure. And I just want to thank our listeners so much today for tuning in. You’ll be listening to this after the fact, after Sake Day, but I hope through the audience participation and through our wonderful toji’s here that you got a sense of how much we enjoyed Sake Day here at Brooklyn Kura and tasting these two beautiful sakes. I also want to take a moment and say hello and thank you to our patrons. Thank you so much for supporting us and for making Sake Revolution possible. If you’d like to learn more about supporting our podcast, please visit Patreon.com/sakerevolution.

John Puma: 54:24
There is also a link at SakeRevolution. com to visit our Patreon. But more importantly, there is a link to our show notes in there. Tim, make sure that every episode has a really, really nice transcript of every single episode. Um, I put a little work into that. Tim puts a lot of work into that, so make sure that you check it out because it’s awesome. And, uh, we also talk about this. We also have all the information and photos of the sakes that we taste every time we do this. And on that note, please raise your glass, remember to keep drinking sake, and Kanpai!

Episode 172. “Say Cheese”! If you identify as a curd nerd, join us to explore an exciting new way of pairing with sake! We are joined this week by extra special guest host Myshell who lends her crazy-style palate to our exploration of these pairing possibilities. Listen in as we taste three sakes, each of which has been paired with a show-stopping cheese – each a different style from a different country, no less. Have wine and cheese pairings finally met their match? #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 06:33 Pairing 1: Brillat-Savarin and Hakkaisan Awa Sparkling Sake
Brillat-Savarin
Triple Cream Soft Ripened cheese
Pasteurized cow’s milk
Cream
Salt Rennet
Cheese Cultures
72% Fat in Dry Matter (40% fat overall)
Jean-Anthelme Brillat-Savarin (1755-1826), an illustrious figure in the French Revolution
PGI (protected geographical Indication) since 2017 
Produced Year round in Burgundy, France

---

Hakkaisan AWA Clear Sparkling

Classification: Sparkling
Brewery: Hakkaisan Sake Brewery
Prefecture: Niigata
Seimaibuai: 50%
Rice Type: Gohyakumangoku, Miyamanishiki, Yamadanishiki
Alcohol: 13.0%
Acidity: 1.4
SMV: -5.0
Brand: Hakkaisan (八海山)
Sake Name English: Eight Peaks
Importer: Mutual Trading (USA)

View On UrbanSake.com

---

Skip to: 18:50 Pairing 2: Gruyere and Yuki no Bosha Yamahai Junmai
Alpine Gruyere
RAW
ANIMAL RENNET
AGE: 10 MONTHS
COW MILK
Gruyère, SWITZERLAND
80 LB wheels
Gruyère is protected by AOP designation (Appellation d’Origine Protégée)
Gruyere must be made in traditional copper vats, prized for their antimicrobial properties and the flavors they impart to the cheese.

---

Yuki No Bosha Yamahai Junmai

Brewery: Asahi Shuzo (Niigata)
Classification: Ginjo
Acidity: 1.0
Alcohol: 15.5%
Prefecture: Niigata
Seimaibuai: 55%
SMV: +6.0
Rice Type: Gohyakumangoku
Brand: Kubota (久保田)
View On UrbanSake.com

---

---

Skip to: 28:05 Pairing 3: Point Reyes Original Blue and Dewazakura Oka
Point Reyes Original Blue
Made from raw (non-pasteurized), rBST-free cows’ milk
Made with microbial (vegetarian) rennet
Aged 3.5 months
Gluten Free
700 Acres in California
4th generation dairy farmers
Milky white in color with blue-green veins throughout
Ultra-creamy texture with medium-strong blue mold flavor
Sweet, fresh milk with a medium-to-strong punch of blue flavor

---

Dewazakura Oka Ginjo

Brewery: Dewazakura Shuzo
Alcohol: 15.5%
Prefecture: Yamagata
SMV: +5.0
Rice Type: Dewasansan, Haenuki
Seimaibuai: 50%
Brand: Dewazakura (出羽桜)
Importer/Distributor: World Sake Imports (USA)

view on UrbanSake.com

---

Skip to: 45:01 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:21

Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast. I’m your host John Puma from the Sake Notes, also the administrator over at the internet Sake Discord and lead mod at Reddit’s r slash sake community. Mm

Timothy Sullivan: 0:37

And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a sake samurai. I’m the director of education at the Sake Study Center of Brooklyn Kura, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake, and doing our best to make it fun and interesting. And easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:55

hmm. That is right, Tim. And what are we tasting and chatting about this week?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:01

Well, John, there’s an episode I’ve been planning literally for years, I’m so excited to do it today. Uh, it is a sake and food pairing and a little bit outside the box. Today, we’re going to talk about. Sake and cheese.

John Puma: 1:21

Um, cheese, huh? Did I, did I forget to mention that I don’t eat cheese, Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:27

You don’t eat cheese?

John Puma: 1:28

I don’t eat cheese.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:30

Hmm. What are we going to do?

John Puma: 1:32

I, I don’t know, but like, I hope you have somebody else that can eat cheese with you because I cannot eat cheese with you.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:39

Well, let’s phone a friend and get someone in here to fill your shoes.

John Puma: 1:44

Ooh,

Timothy Sullivan: 1:44

Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.

John Puma: 1:45

shoes?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:46

I am happy to introduce John’s better half, Myshell Puma, who is a verified cheese lover, crazy style sake expert, and alumni of Sake Revolution. Welcome, Myshell. Welcome to the show.

Myshell Puma: 2:02

Hi! Thank you for having me. I’m very excited to finally get to be your cheese surrogate. I’ve heard you guys talking about this episode for ages. I’ve been practicing. I’ve eaten so much goat cheese. I’m ready.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:19

so you have no trouble eating cheese, right?

Myshell Puma: 2:23

No, probably the opposite. I have trouble not eating cheese. Oh,

Timothy Sullivan: 2:30

you’re relegated to the sidelines. I’m sorry to say.

John Puma: 2:33

I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna take the bench tonight for the most part. I’ll, I’ll be back when you guys are tasting the sake to give the non cheese lovers opinion of the sake. But for the most part, I want you guys to fly and have a good time.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:46

Now, Myshell, We’ve been talking about doing a sake and cheese episode literally for years, right?

Myshell Puma: 2:53

Yes. I have been waiting for this moment.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:58

Here we are. Now, when we first started talking about this, I had very little confidence about sake and cheese. And I thought about bringing in a third party cheese expert to talk about the cheese part. Um, But in the meantime, I happened to start a sake school at Brooklyn Kura, and we’ve been offering a cheese class there for several months. And I did a deep dive in cheese, gained 10 pounds, and it has been The most delicious thing I’ve done in the world of sake, like literally no joke. This has been my favorite thing to explore is sake and cheese. Now, before we start, have you had a sake and cheese pairing experience before, Myshell?

Myshell Puma: 3:40

yeah, I would call some of those things sake and cheese experiences. it’s definitely been something on my radar that, you know, sake and cheese is a great, a great pairing, a great thing to do. I’ve never had anyone who is certified or teaching courses on it. It’s just sort of been, you know, at restaurants or other sake or cheese lovers. Um, the one that sticks out to me the most is we were at a bar in New York, a sake bar in New York, years ago. And they were like, oh, you know, sake and cheese, it goes so well together, like, you’ve gotta try this. And they gave me a sake. I don’t remember. And they’re like, here, try this! And handed me cheese, stuffed it right in my mouth. It was just a huge piece of blue cheese. It was, very intimidating. It was a lot. I’m not really a blue cheese eater, especially just like giant nug of blue cheese, but you know what? It did pair well. It did pair well.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:32

Sounds like you started out by jumping into the deep end there.

Myshell Puma: 4:36

You know? I, that’s true, but I, you know, I guess that’s how I do things, so it’s okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:41

Very crazy style entrance into sake and cheese pairing. I like that. That’s very on brand for you.

Myshell Puma: 4:47

Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:48

Now, do you have any expectations for today or anything you’re nervous about or excited about?

Myshell Puma: 4:54

Well, at first I was very nervous, I’ve heard a lot about your course, And I’ve heard a lot of good things about your course. So I was just like, Oh, you know, how am I going to match up to all of your expertise? But then I had the most glamorous package of cheese and sake delivered to me. And I have these beautifully wrapped cheeses and sake. I don’t want to give anything away too soon, but this has just been a sublime experience so far. And I’m ready to be pampered with the sake and cheese pairing.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:24

Yes, this is a sake and cheese spa, so you don’t need, yes, you don’t need to worry about anything. I’m going to take care of you and guide you through the world of sake and cheese. And we’re here to have you enjoy it. And all I want is your feedback and ideas and reaction to what we experience. Now, when I do the sake and cheese class at the Sake Studies Center, we taste a total of five different combinations. To keep things a little more compact for the episode today, I picked three very different styles of cheese, three fun sakes, several of which we’ve already had on the show, but I think they’re great examples of their style and, you know, we might have a topping or two to mix things up, but, I think that we should delay no longer and get started. Now, what I would like to do. is perhaps introduce you first to the cheese, and then we can talk about the sake very briefly, and then start the pairing. And we’ll do that like three times for each of the pairings. How does that sound?

Myshell Puma: 6:29

That sounds great. Is that the same way that you do it for your classes at Brooklyn Kura?

Timothy Sullivan: 6:33

Yeah, that’s exactly what we do. Yep. We talk about the cheese first, we pour the sake, and then we taste them together and talk about it, what we like, what we don’t like. And, We do that for each, each of the pairings. Now, as we move through, the cheeses are going to get more firm and more intense in flavor as we go from beginning to end. So I am super excited about this first cheese. Now I’m going to tell you just a little story about this first one. So this is a cheese from Burgundy, France, and it’s called Brillat-Savarin. And Brillat-Savarin is. the name of a person, a real live person. He lived in France during the French Revolution and afterwards. And the way I describe him in my class is this dude was the Anthony Bourdain of revolutionary France. So he, he wrote the most famous book about Enjoying food and culinary experiences in the 1820s. It’s called the physiology of taste. And he was super, super famous for writing like one of the first books that focused on the enjoyment of food and eating. Uh, he was a lawyer. and lived in France before the French Revolution, fled to America for a few years, and he supported himself by teaching French and violin lessons. And then he came back to France when the revolution was over and wrote this really famous book, which was published the year that he passed away, which is 1826. So he’s famous in France as being like, a gourmand or a, you know, someone who’s a really famous foodie from history. And they named this cheese after him. So that’s the guy that the cheese is named after. Uh, the first cheese we’re going to have is again called Brillat-Savarin, which is this guy’s name. It is a triple cream cheese. Now, have you ever had heard of triple cream before?

Myshell Puma: 8:41

it sounds familiar. I think those are the ones that are usually a little bit more melty, a little more liquidy, right?

Timothy Sullivan: 8:48

That’s exactly right. Very goopy. They take a pasteurized cow’s milk, so regular whole cow’s milk, and then they add cream to that when they’re making the cheese. So normally if you have like a firmer cheese, it’s just cow’s milk, but this has cream added to it. So that gives it a very buttery texture. And This has been the crowd favorite in almost all the classes that I’ve taught on cheese.

Myshell Puma: 9:19

Ooh, and we’re starting with a favorite.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:20

starting with the favorite, but it is such a great place to start. So this is, uh, French cheese again from Burgundy, uh, triple cream, soft ripened cheese. And you’ll notice if you look at this cheese and we’ll have pictures of all these cheeses in the show notes, but do you see the white rind on the outside? That looks a little. Soft?

Myshell Puma: 9:41

Yes. It’s, mine is sort of peeling away.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:43

Yes. This is what’s known as a bloomy rind because this is actually a fungus that grows on the outside and they mix the fungus culture into the milk and cream when they’re making the cheese. And then when they set it out afterwards, it grows this natural bloomy, white fungus on the outside, which is completely edible. Some people skip it when they’re eating the cheese. I love to eat it. Uh, but that fungus that you see growing the white, if you’ve ever seen like a camembert or a Brie, you know, they have that white fuzzy exterior. Um, it’s the same with this, uh, triple cream. Cheese.

Myshell Puma: 10:21

Very interesting, didn’t know it was a fungus. it looks like it would make a great cracker, honestly. Like, so the, I, mine was in the fridge for a while, it’s only been out for, I don’t know, five or ten minutes or so, and it’s already quite melty, but the, that exterior part that you’re talking about is still really holding firm.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:39

That’s kind of like going to hold it together until we’re ready to eat it. Now, let’s move to the sake that I’m going to pair with this. This triple cream cheese is very buttery, very rich. It’s super luscious on the palate. Some people describe it as like the ice cream of cheese. borders on deserty because it’s so creamy and rich. So the sake that I’ve paired with this super rich cheese is actually a sparkling sake. And I’ve gone close to home with my, brand that I represent, Hakkaisan. So I’ve chosen Hakkaisan Awa. Which is a Champagne Method sparkling sake. This is bright, refreshing, and the bubbles really scrub your palate when you sip on this sake. And I think it’s fattiness of this, of this cheese.

Myshell Puma: 11:36

This is amazing. Hakkaisan’s sparkling sake lines are my, some of my most favorite, uh, sparkling sake. Definitely some of the best you can get in New York, for sure. Yeah?

Timothy Sullivan: 11:50

for the listeners at home, I’m going to open this sparkling right now into my microphone. John, you ready for this?

John Puma: 11:56

Oh, I’m, I’m prepared.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:58

Okay. All right. So, Myshell, I have some good news. We are ready to do our first pairing.

Myshell Puma: 12:08

This is definitely good news. I’m pouring mine now.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:10

Okay. So let me read off the stats for this sake while you’re pouring. This is Hakkaisan Awa. It’s a champagne method sparkling, secondary in bottle fermentation, from Hakkaisan Sake Brewery out of Niigata. The rice is Gohyaku Mangoku. Miyamanishiki and Yamadanishiki all polished to 50%. The alcohol here is a little bit lower at 13%. Acidity is 1. 4. SMV is minus five. And the, of course, the English name for Hakkaisan is eight peaks. All right. So now Myshell, I haven’t, I don’t know if I’ve spoken about this on the show before, but I do have a recommended method for pairing. And I always talk about this in my cheese class. I call it the Oreo method when you’re pairing sake and food. So if you think about an Oreo cookie, you’ve got two cookies, and the cream center. So what I recommend is sipping the sake, taking a bite of cheese, and sipping the sake again. So you kind of sandwich the cheese between two small sips of sake. So why don’t we, why don’t we

Myshell Puma: 13:25

a much better method. I thought when you said Oreo, you meant we were going to dunk the cheese in the sake. Which I was also down for, but

Timothy Sullivan: 13:34

Oh my god, that’s amazing. We, we can try that. That can be the after show. We can try that.

John Puma: 13:41

That’ll

Myshell Puma: 13:41

Ooh, like if we want to like Ooh, like sake fondue.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:45

Yes. I love it. Okay. Let’s give this a taste. I want to, I want to get your reaction and you too, John.

John Puma: 13:51

That’s just lovely.

Myshell Puma: 13:52

is so fresh. I have mine in a champagne flute.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:55

Love

Myshell Puma: 13:56

it is so like nosy, it just smells like I’m in a brewery and it tastes like I’m getting it straight out of the brewery as well.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:03

Yeah. What I love about this sake, John, I don’t know if you feel that as well, but I get a little hint of melon. Like it’s always like this, uh, honeydew melon. aroma. And then the, the texture is so exciting on the palate. Like all these little bubbles kind of tickling your taste buds.

John Puma: 14:22

Yeah, it’s interesting to me because it’s got that, I think I’ve talked about this before on the show, how you’ve got this like melon, but you’ve also got this texture that comes from the, the intense amount of like, of bubbles on there, I don’t want to say carbonation, but of bubbles that are in there, and it, it, it messes with you a little bit, messes with me a little bit, uh, but yeah, it’s really tasty. I’m a big fan of this. I don’t do too much sparkling sake. So it’s cheese and sparkling sake, two things I don’t do a lot of. And, um, yeah. But no, this is a tasty, tasty combination so far. And that is me and the sparkling sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:58

Well, John, you have to step aside now. It is time for my shell to spread this Brillat-Savarin on your cracker. You ready to go?

Myshell Puma: 15:07

My crackers are sourdough flatbread in the olive oil and Selgris flavored?

Timothy Sullivan: 15:14

Yes. So these are sourdough crackers that are a favorite of mine. I serve these in my class and they are, um, they use a gray sea salt. but we’re gonna, I’m gonna sip. Oh my God.

Myshell Puma: 15:36

I mentioned so i’m drinking my hakaisan awa out of a champagne flute And so it’s a lot of bubbly very much in the nose. It smells very fresh And my initial bite of the cheese, it was the same way. It just made it taste very, very fresh. And then at the end when I, and then I went back, I kind of got almost like a berry taste to it, which I think is what you were mentioning before, Tim, about that melon y sort of flavor. I’m definitely getting that melon flavor now.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:03

when I taste this cheese, I, the thing that hits me right over the head is the creamy, rich texture. this is buttery. it’s salty, so it’s not like eating butter, but it has the mouthfeel of softened, rich butter, doesn’t it? Like, a really creamy butter. And it is so decadent. Like, really good.

Myshell Puma: 16:28

Yeah, it’s definitely, when you said, like, an ice cream earlier, you compared it to that, it, it’s sort of almost, not melting, but it’s, it’s getting very soft, like ice cream, and the way I spread it on, kind of reminded me of, like, a gelato. You can make, like, a little mound out of it.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:41

Mm.

Myshell Puma: 16:43

Wow.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:45

Yeah, so give it another taste and let me know what you think.

Myshell Puma: 16:47

yeah, I’m gonna need a few more tastes, I think, to decide. I guess I already drank all of my Sake, so

Timothy Sullivan: 16:57

Refill, refill. So John, are you feeling left out right now? Do you wish you were a cheese lover in this moment? Or are you secure in your hatred of cheese?

John Puma: 17:07

Um, there’s a little FOMO, but I’ll get over it.

Myshell Puma: 17:13

He’s, he’s getting the mukbang experience. Just watching us eat all this cheese. the softness of this cheese with this cracker that you chose is amazing. The cracker is like structurally sound and it adds a crunch but it also kind of just like melts away with the cheese. It is. Very nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:33

So thumbs up for the first cheese.

Myshell Puma: 17:35

Oh, so much thumbs up. Amazing.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:38

So I think that in my experience teaching this class, I’ve always launched the class with this pairing, like some sparkling sake, sometimes Awa, sometimes Brooklyn KuraSecondi, or another sparkling sake. And I find that the bubbles really scrub the palate, scrub your tongue and kind of cut the rich creaminess of this. Like you, if you imagine scooping butter onto your tongue, it’s going to get really greasy and heavy, but I find the sparkling just lightens it and cleanses your palate as you’re taking bites of this cheese.

Myshell Puma: 18:16

That’s so true. That’s the opposite direction that I would have thought. I guessed That we were going to go in sort of a, like, aged sake or like an umeshu, like, just roll with the richness and the, the deepness, but that, scrubbing that you’re talking about, it does, like, lighten everything up and allows you to go back in fresh for the next bite, which is super nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:37

all right. So that was our first pairing. And are you ready to move on to pairing number two?

Myshell Puma: 18:44

Yeah. I’ve had like three of these crackers worth of this cheese.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:50

Okay. So our next pairing is Gruyere cheese. So we went from a super soft triple cream cheese to a medium hard cheese. Now, if you think of. Really hard cheeses like, um, Parmesan Reggiano or something like that, that’s like a brick, like you can hit someone on the head with it. This is a medium soft cheese, so it has a little bit of give to it, but it’s relatively firm. And this is from Gruyere, Switzerland. And this is very special to me because I went on a vacation to Switzerland with my husband, Scott, and he made us go Out of our way to visit the tiny town of Gruyere, and we actually had Gruyere cheese and Gruyere fondue in the town of Gruyere. So I have personal experience with this part of Switzerland. We had an amazing time, and I was won over to Gruyere. since that experience. Now, I want to tell you just a little bit about Gruyere. Gruyere, of course, is an Alpine cheese. And that means that the cow’s milk that is used to make Gruyere is from cows that graze in Alpine pastures. Gruyere is also an AOP, which means an Appellation d’Origine Protégée, which is like protected. origin So this can only be made in the Gruyere region. And this cheese is also made in traditional copper vats, which are prized for their antimicrobial properties and the flavors that these vats also impart to the cheese. So this is all hyperlocal in the Gruyere region of Switzerland. These are 80 pound wheels of cheese that are then cut up. So what we have here is a. Small slice of an 80 pound wheel and Scott and I actually saw them making this at the Gruyere Museum that they have right by the train station. And we fell in love with it. So there’s a few things I want to tell you about Gruyere. If you look, Myshell, if you look closely at your piece of Gruyere, I want you to let me know if you see any white specks in your cheese, like little white dots.

Myshell Puma: 21:16

Yeah, I have a few. Like little, like little constellations.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:19

Yep. So those white specks are actually concentrations of amino acids. And those are little umami bombs that are hidden in your gruyere. And if you move up to something like a Parmigiano Reggiano, you’re going to see a lot more of those white crystals. And those are concentrations of amino acids. So this is like getting to the, um, umami. and savory side of cheese, but this is a little bit more reserved. The one that we have here is aged for about 10 months. And, I would describe the flavor overall of Gruyere as kind of like a little bit of a grassy and nutty flavor. So, the last point I want to make about Gruyere is that this is one of the main ingredients in fondue. So are you a fan of fondue, Myshell?

Myshell Puma: 22:08

Wow, I did not know that fondue had like a specific recipe. I thought it was just any melted cheese, so I think I have to say no. I’m not that much of a fan since I clearly didn’t even know what it was, but I thought I was because I do like dipping things in hot cheese. So, 50

Timothy Sullivan: 22:24

This is a really delicious cheese, uh, alpine gruyere and it melts beautifully, but we’re going to be having it snack style where we put it, on a cracker. And let’s introduce the sake that we have paired for this. And the sake I picked is Yukinobosha Yamahaii Junmai. This is a sake from the Akita region of Japan. It’s a Yamahaii and it’s a Junmai grade. Rice polished to 65%. The Sake meter value is plus one. This uses yamadanishiki rice and Akita Komachi rice, and the acidity is 1.9. So there’s a very specific reason that I picked this sake to pair with the Gruyere. Uh, the acidity is 1.9, which is a little bit high for. traditional Junmai. And I felt that that higher acidity kind of calls back to the white wine that they use in fondue. So if you dip bread into fondue, you get a little bit of the acidic bite from the white wine they use. When they’re making the fondue. So I wanted to find a sake that had just a little bit of bright acidity. And I love this Yukinobosha Junmai. So let’s get this in the glass and taste it together. Now, I’m going to slice off a sliver of the gruyere. You’ll notice that the texture is much firmer than the super creamy triple cream. So I’m going to take a couple thin slices and the same cracker. To keep everything even, we’re not going to mess around with the vehicle here.

Myshell Puma: 24:10

So mine has, I wouldn’t exactly call it a rind, but there’s like a darker edge.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:15

Yes.

Myshell Puma: 24:16

Is that also fungus?

Timothy Sullivan: 24:18

No. That is a salt wash that they, they wipe the wheel with salt every so often when they’re aging this cheese and it forms a firm rind on the outside. It is edible, but I don’t eat this one. So you want to take some cheese from the non rind area.

Myshell Puma: 24:36

This one looks a lot less scary than the last one.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:38

All right. So let’s try the sake first. You ready, John?

John Puma: 24:42

Oh yes. I’ve been waiting.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:44

Okay. Mmm.

Myshell Puma: 24:47

This one smells like a John Puma sake. Mmm.

John Puma: 24:54

pretty Yamahaii.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:56

Mmm. I think this. is a pretty yamahai.

John Puma: 24:58

pretty. And I do like a pretty Yamahai. if I’m having a Yamahai, it’s going to be nice and pretty. This one’s very well dressed. I’m a big fan. It’s set up nicely.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:08

for me with this sake is the acidity. So there’s a little brightness on the finish that I really want to highlight with this and let’s do our Oreo method, Myshell, and give it a taste.

Myshell Puma: 25:23

This is amazing. This one is so good. Mmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:28

Very nutty, creamy in a firm way, like melts in your mouth a little.

Myshell Puma: 25:34

It has almost, like, a kick of, like, saltiness, almost? That, like, brightness? Maybe those are those little, acid bombs you were talking about? that are lovely. And then the sake does not get lost at all. It just washes right along with it. It’s so nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:51

So my recommended pairing with a Gruyere cheese is finding a higher acid Sake, something like 1. 7 or above. And that acidity mimics what a white wine might bring to the flavor of this sake when you’re making a fondue.

Myshell Puma: 26:08

This is lovely. and it does have like a complex flavor, like the nuttiness that you’re talking about, but then the acidity is this like brightness that’s like on top of it as well. So it just, It’s still refreshing even though it’s, it’s kind of a heavier, more full cheese. That brightness just lightens it up. It’s really nice. I love it.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:29

Yeah. And I just want to say one thing before we move on to the last pairing, and that is there may be some listeners here who are thinking that You know, wine and cheese is the ultimate food pairing. Like for our whole lives, we’ve heard about wine and cheese pairings, like it’s the greatest thing in the world and so sophisticated. And I honestly have come to believe that sake and cheese pairing is better because the acidity levels are much more moderated in sake. And sometimes wine can just kind of barrel in with its high acidity and stronger flavors and just kind of bowl over. the cheese. And I find that sake and cheese pairing is more of a subtle dance. I don’t know if you’ve done wine and cheese pairings, Myshell, before, but I find I enjoy this more subtle approach with sake versus wine.

Myshell Puma: 27:23

I’ve had wine and cheese at the same time, but, um, I’ve never had it paired. And I mean, you know, it, I, I don’t think I picked up on the subtleties as much as we are here. Like, this is definitely like a very beautiful, very, intentional set that you’ve put together for me. And like, I’m very excited to have this. And I don’t know, maybe I feel like I’ve been a caveman this whole time. Mean, I go to Trader Joe’s, you know, I buy what’s on sale. Yeah. But no, this is lovely. This is, your, your notes about looking at the acidity of the sake and pairing, like it makes a lot of sense and it’s, it’s very nice. I’ve been missing out for sure.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:05

All right. Well, let’s move on to our third and final pairing, and this is going to be the most challenging. Uh, we’re going to move into a little bit of a funky area for cheese. I picked up a blue cheese, which a little bird told me, Michelle, is maybe not your favorite kind of cheese. but I picked up a Point Reyes blue cheese. So we had cheese from France, we had cheese from Switzerland, and now we’re coming back to the good. US of A. So this is an American cheese from California, Point Reyes is just north of San Francisco. And this is a very interesting cheese. Place where this is made, Point Reyes Farmstead, existed for generations as a dairy farm where all they did was make milk and they sold it. And in the nineties, when the price of milk started to go down, the owners of this Point Reyes Farmstead looked at other ways to use their milk and they decided to try to make their first cheese. And they made this blue cheese. It’s called the Original Blue. They have a 700 acre farm in California in Point Reyes. And one of the interesting things about this farm is that it was run by a husband and wife most recently. And then they had three daughters and the three daughters moved back home when the father was ready to retire and took over the running of the dairy farm. So this is now a female run business and they focus much more on these artisanal cheeses that they’ve started making. And, uh, blue cheese is very divisive. Don’t you think? Like some people love it. Some people hate it. What do you think about blue cheese?

Myshell Puma: 30:00

yes, so that was a lot of beautiful information. Just first of all, that was so fascinating. I was not expecting to have cheese from the United States. and if you did, I, I would have guessed, Wisconsin. Probably. I didn’t know that California had cheese. cheese dairy farms?

Timothy Sullivan: 30:17

a 700 acre dairy farm. It’s not what you picture when you think of California.

Myshell Puma: 30:21

No, not at all. So that was really interesting. Um, and I, I don’t know very much about blue cheese, but I thought, isn’t it a European cheese, right?

Timothy Sullivan: 30:30

Originally, yes.

Myshell Puma: 30:31

Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:32

And the thing that makes blue cheese blue is the fungus. So what they do, similar to the triple cream cheese, is when they’re mixing the cheese, initially when it’s all liquidy, they dump the mold into the cheese while it’s still liquid. when they’re forming the cheese into wheels for this blue cheese, for all blue cheeses, what they do is they take these metal spikes and they spike holes into the cheese while it’s forming, and this creates air channels and the molds. goes to where the air channels are. That’s why you often see these lines in blue cheese where the mold kind of grows straight up and down in these lines. And so they puncture the cheese and where the oxygen is, that’s where the mold tends to grow up and it creates the veins of the bluish green mold.

Myshell Puma: 31:24

Hmm. It does have a very strong flavor and I think the fact that it’s Mold I think just immediately turns a lot of people off. Um, because it’s such a strong flavor like it makes sense that people get turned away. It’s very divisive. I also know Humboldt fog that’s like another Is that that’s not a blue cheese, but it’s similar right? It’s folds ribbons of the mold

Timothy Sullivan: 31:46

Yeah. They make a blue cheese as well. so that brand has a, that’s a really famous, there’s another one from Ireland called Cashel Blue. Blue cheese from many, many countries. I really like this Point Reyes one, and I have a little trick that I have to approach this cheese, but before we get to that, let me introduce the sake. And John, I think you’re going to want to pay attention here because this is, might be a favorite of yours.

John Puma: 32:15

It might be.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:17

So we’re going to be pairing this blue cheese with Dewazakura Oka. This is a ginjo sake from Dewazakura Shuzo out of Yamagata. SMV plus five, acidity 1. 2. the rice types are Dewasan san and Asakura san. Hainuki, and those are polished to 50 percent remaining. The English name for this sake is actually cherry bouquet, if that gives you any indication where we’re going with this.

John Puma: 32:47

I’m very familiar with this sake, and it is absolutely one of my favorites, bar none. This needs no qualification.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:57

All right, well, I’m going to get this Dewazakura in the glass. Okay. Now, Myshell I promised you a little trick to help ease us into the enjoyment of blue cheese, and I gave you a little vial of some honey. And my trick for blue cheese, if it’s maybe not your favorite or a little too strongly flavored for you, I recommend taking a little bit of blue cheese on a cracker and then putting Let’s put a little drizzle of honey over that, and then honey lends some sweetness and balance to the lactic funk of the blue cheese, and I find it makes it much, much more palatable for people who blue cheese may not be their favorite. So let’s give that a try.

Myshell Puma: 33:50

For the record, I don’t love blue cheese, like, I don’t like it, you know, but I can eat, and will eat, anything under duress. So, I, you know, I have had it.

Timothy Sullivan: 33:59

So we are under duress right now, ladies and gentlemen. Um, now you’ll notice the texture, Michel, of this blue cheese is crumbly. So we had one super creamy, one semi firm, and this is a crumbly cheese.

Myshell Puma: 34:11

I was going to ask what your method was to getting it to stay on your cracker.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:15

yeah, just push down with the, with the knife and just crumble and smush,

Myshell Puma: 34:19

much, like the bend and snap. I

Timothy Sullivan: 34:22

Yes. And then to get the honey on, I put it on a spoon and just kind of spin the spoon and get the honey kind of suspended and then drizzle.

John Puma: 34:32

So, I’m drinking this out of a wine glass, and the nose for me has all that, that big fruit, that cherry. Ooh, I love it. But no cheese for me. So, I’m wondering what’s going to happen when we pair them together.

Myshell Puma: 34:46

Okay, so I am going to, be a little less brave this time and I’m gonna do more honey.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:51

yeah. A little less cheese, just a little schmear.

Myshell Puma: 34:53

Those other ones were so good. I’m trying to just like find the honey and focus on the sweetness. It still tastes so much like blue cheese to me But I think that’s really a testament to the quality of this cheese that you picked out that like, you know It’s strong and knows what it’s about It’s not gonna like hide too much behind that but it is it is much more palatable this way I think that if you are like on the fence about blue cheese I think this is a really great trick. But for me, I just don’t like it. I’m, sorry

Timothy Sullivan: 35:32

I knew this would be like a divisive cheese, and I contemplated bringing it on, but I think if we’re gonna talk about sake and cheese, I really felt like bringing one controversial character onto the plate was really important.

Myshell Puma: 35:48

It definitely goes together I think that the honey I liked the honestly the texture of the honey that like syrupy ness Really went well also with that texture the crumbliness of the blue cheese I think if I had it a few more times, I think it’s definitely sort of, it’s, it’s a much more like mature palate type of cheese. Um, and I would definitely be open. I mean, I have a whole chunk of it now. I would definitely be open to continuing to like, to like blue cheese. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. It’s just, it’s a stronger flavor for me. I’m, you know, I’m not as familiar with it.

Timothy Sullivan: 36:20

Yeah. I’ll tell you this. When I teach the class at the sake study center, I feature this pairing and I ask everybody, like I ask all the students, like, are there any blue cheese haters in the class? And they’ve paid money to come to a cheese class, you know? And I say, and like every time about 20 to 30 percent of the people raised their hands that they’re not crazy about blue cheese. So I developed this honey drizzle. to kind of ease people into blue cheese. And let’s talk about the sake pairing. Like, this has a little bit of fruitiness and a little bit of that cherry note. And I wanted to bring that into this pairing. So this is, I think of the three, this is the most complex pairing because you have the funk and the lactic from the cheese. You have the sweetness from the honey, and then you have a little bit of a fruity note from the Uh, from the Dewazakura. So we went from more simple to advanced in my book.

Myshell Puma: 37:25

What was, really surprising to me was, With other types of food, when I’m having, food at home or having sake at home, when a sake doesn’t pair, it just sort of tastes like straight alcohol. Like, you can just tell right away that it just doesn’t work. And this, blue cheese is such a strong, prominent flavor. And then the honey is so sweet. Like, these are very big flavors and it did not make the Dewazakura taste off or weird. Like it, it still went with it, which is so amazing. It’s very impressive.

Timothy Sullivan: 37:52

Yeah, one other, one other pairing that I like with this blue cheese and the honey is a, like a shiboritate nama, like something super fruity and sweet that brings balance. And for today I found the Dewazakura Oka, which is a little more restrained. Of course, it’s not a nama, but it does have those, uh, little bit of a jammy fruitiness to it, which I really like. John, how would you describe the Dewazakura Oka for you?

John Puma: 38:23

decadent. I, I am a huge fan, obviously, you guys are. Both of you have heard me, uh, go on about this sake for years. It is one of those, like, desert island sakes for me. Uh, I think it’s wonderful. It goes with such a wide variety of foods, I think. Because while it is like ginjo, it’s got all those tropical notes to it. It’s, it’s It’s also a sake that can, like, stand with some food, and it’s not too delicate, which I think is probably why you chose it for this, because,

Timothy Sullivan: 38:52

That’s a, yep.

John Puma: 38:53

you know, you’re going for that fruit, you want something that’s going to have a little bit more oomph to it. Uh, and it does,

Timothy Sullivan: 38:59

Myshell, I hope you feel like I’ve taken you on a little journey through cheese. Like we’ve, we’ve done different textures, different profiles. And whenever I do a pairing with any food and sake, I always tell people that I don’t think you’re going to fall in love with every single one of these. That’s not the point. We want to please your palate, but we also want to stretch your palate. and see if there’s any new combinations or flavors that, you know, you might not fall in love with them at first sight, but maybe something about that combination will stay with you. And maybe there’s some thing in there that can, be a reference point for the future. And I think as you’re learning sake and food pairing, even the things that don’t you as love at first sight will stay with you and can serve you in the future. What do you, what do you think about that?

Myshell Puma: 39:48

I’m actually so inspired by this. as you’ve been talking about the way that the cheeses are made and how they taste and then What aspects for each sake made you choose them for that cheese? Like, it’s just made me think of other things that I think might be a good idea. And, it’s really inspired me to try other pairings with these. since I’m at home and I’m not, you know, conducting a class, like, it’s a little bit more low stakes. I feel like, I can just try around a little bit. and I’m really excited. Like I said, that the first one that we had, I thought you were going to go like a sweeter sake, a more like richer, deeper one. I’m interested to see how that goes. And this blue cheese, you know, it’s a funky cheese. It’s famous for being so funky. And it makes me think like, what if we did like a hot nigori with it? You know, like, what if we just got weird? I don’t know. I’m, I’m excited to do a lot more cheese and sake pairings. I mean, there’s so much cheese left over.

Timothy Sullivan: 40:43

Well. You’re living up to your crazy style brand right now. Hot nigori with blue cheese. Oh my God. I don’t know if I even, I could handle that, but it sounds

John Puma: 40:53

I’ll get back to you later on how it

Timothy Sullivan: 40:54

Yeah. Well, that makes me so happy that you’ve taken that away from this experience is that this is really just the jumping off point. I don’t want anyone coming to any of my classes saying like, okay, now I know everything about This sake and that food, you know, it’s, it’s just a starting point to kind of launch the ship and go out and explore on your own about what might be fun for you. I view my classes as basically giving people permission to start to pair sake with non traditional things. Like you can have sake outside of the sushi bar and sake and cheese, sake and desserts, uh, sparkling sake. All these things are. In my view, giving people permission to explore and have fun. And it sounds like that struck the right chord with you, too.

Myshell Puma: 41:40

Yeah, I just need that cheese fairy to deliver it to me every time for the best experience.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:50

You’ve got, you have a cheese fairy on speed dial, so you can call me anytime.

Myshell Puma: 41:56

Amazing.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:58

Um, so any, any last thoughts, Myshell, about your sake and cheese pairing experience? Would you recommend it to others?

Myshell Puma: 42:05

Yeah, I, you know, I love cheese. I’m a, I eat a lot of cheese. I drink a lot of sake and I still learned so much. And even when you were describing it to me, I was still very surprised by how it was going. So I think that. Even if you’re an expert in one or the other or both, I still think that you can learn a lot by just like sitting down and doing these comparisons back to back. I think I still have a lot to learn. I think we should probably do another episode or two just to really like hammer it home for me. I still have a lot of questions, you know, so I think we’re gonna have to do a few more of these.

Timothy Sullivan: 42:41

I agree. I think we should have, uh, Scott, Scott’s out of town right now, but I think we should have him on the podcast and do another slate of three cheeses and three

Myshell Puma: 42:51

I was going to say, how is he not banging down the door like, let me in to try these cheeses. This is amazing.

Timothy Sullivan: 42:58

Yeah, he’s on a trip right now, but, uh, we’ll have him on next time. And I agree with you. We can do a part two of this. And we’ll enjoy the cheese and sake. And, um, there’s a whole bunch of cheese styles we haven’t tried. One of my favorites we didn’t touch today is cheddar. Do you like cheddar cheese? Goat

Myshell Puma: 43:15

I love cheddar. I love white cheddar.

Timothy Sullivan: 43:17

Mmm.

Myshell Puma: 43:18

I love like the firmer, saltier ones. So like the gruyere, I think today was my favorite. I also love goat cheese and there’s so many flavored goat cheese these days as well.

Timothy Sullivan: 43:29

Yeah, I normally serve a goat cheese in class, but to keep it to keep it to three cheeses today, I took the goat cheese out, but we always have a goat cheese in class. So we can do that next time as well. But I think we’re all cued up to do an, a goat cheese. Part two of sake and cheese pairing, the revenge.

Myshell Puma: 43:45

I love it.

John Puma: 43:46

have we accidentally made a series? Is that what just happened? This

Timothy Sullivan: 43:50

so you think we had a successful first sake and cheese pairing, Myshell?

Myshell Puma: 43:54

Yes, I want to shout out my boy, Briant, uh, for really making, isn’t that, that guy’s name? Briant, the cheese

Timothy Sullivan: 44:01

Oh yeah. Briont Savarin. Yeah.

Myshell Puma: 44:03

Yeah, shout out to him, this was amazing, good job.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:08

All right. Well. John, do you still have FOMO right now?

John Puma: 44:14

No, I’ve been drinking along, so I’m having a great time.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:17

Okay. You’re having a great time. The blue cheese probably put you back in your place and made you think you’re, you’re fine.

John Puma: 44:24

Yeah, the blue cheese, suddenly I was like, you know what? Just having the sake is great. I’m living my best life over here.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:31

All right. Well, uh, John, thank you so much for being a good sport and going with us along on this journey and Myshell. thank you so much. It was lovely to have you on the show and so great to taste with you. Thank you for filling in for JP and his cheese hating ways.

Myshell Puma: 44:52

Thank you for having me, and thank you for teaching me. I had a wonderful time, I learned so much, and it was delicious. Maybe

Timothy Sullivan: 45:01

any of the sakes or any of the cheeses we tasted in today’s episode, please visit our show notes at SakeRevolution.Com. I want to give a special shout out and hello to all our listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in. We appreciate you so much. A special greeting to all of our Patreon members. If you’d like to support the show, you can visit our Patreon. That is Patreon.com/SakeRevolution.

John Puma: 45:29

and, I think it goes without saying, especially today, that maybe you want to check out those show notes that are available at sakerevolution. com. You can have pictures of all three of the bottles of sake that we sipped on today, and of course a transcript of everything that went on over here today on the show. also at the website we have our merchandise page where you can get Sake Revolution t shirts, stickers, and other swag coming down the pipe at some point. In the near future. on that note, please grab your glass Remember to keep drinking sake, and perhaps some cheese with it, Kanpai!

Episode 171. This week we go back to school…again! Timothy’s new role as the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center at Brooklyn Kura is the focus of today’s episode. The Sake Studies Center is the new sake school on the block, offering education, tastings and brewery tours for professionals and sake-curious consumers alike at our state-of-the-art facility at Industry City in Brooklyn. It’s also a sake community center where other sake educators can bring their classes and special events. As the only sake school in the U.S. attached to a working sake brewery, it really is the best place to “learn about sake where sake is made!” We hope you’ll join us for a seminar or tasting soon. Listen in for all the details! #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 02:37 Sake Studies Center at Brooklyn Kura

About The Sake Studies Center at Brooklyn Kura

We believe that education is the key to making the enjoyment and understanding of sake more mainstream. With that in mind, we are proud to welcome you to the Sake Studies Center at Brooklyn Kura, the first sake school in the country attached to a working sake brewery. Led by our Director of Education Timothy Sullivan, we offer a wide range of fun and interactive sake tastings and education programming with something for everyone, from sake beginners to industry professionals. In addition to our own in-person and online courses, we are also opening our classroom and community to host sake educators from around the world. Booking for all our sake pairings, seminars and tasting events is available on our website. We hope you’ll join us to “learn about sake where sake is made!”

Website: SakeStudiesCenter.com
Course Schedule: SakeStudiesCenter.com/courses
Instagram: Instagram.com/sakestudiescenter
Brooklyn Kura: BrooklynKura.com

Address:
34 34th Street
Industry City Building 6
Inner Courtyard
Brooklyn, NY 11232

---

Skip to: 21:01 Sake Tasting: Brooklyn Kura Near & Far Junmai Ginjo

Brooklyn Kura Near & Far Junmai Ginjo

Alcohol: 16.0%
Brand: Brooklyn Kura
Brewery: Brooklyn Kura
Classification: Junmai Ginjo, Nama Chozo
Importer/Distributor: Skurnik
Prefecture: Brooklyn
Rice Type: Yamadanishiki (USA)
Seimaibuai: 60%
SMV: -5.7

---

Skip to: 31:31 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:22
Hello everybody. And welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast, and I am one of your hosts. My name is John Puma. I’m from the Sake Notes. I’m also from the internet Sake Discord and Reddit’s R/ Sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:37
And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m a sake educator, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake, and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:54
Hello there, Tim. How are you today?

Timothy Sullivan: 0:56
John, how’s it going?

John Puma: 0:58
It’s going well, it’s going pretty well. Um, I have a confession to make. I

Timothy Sullivan: 1:03
love true confessions.

John Puma: 1:05
I have yet to begin my sake revolution resolution for this year, 20 and 24. I know we talked, I talked a good game,

Timothy Sullivan: 1:16
sure did.

John Puma: 1:17
but I haven’t done anything about it yet.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:20
Well, remind our listeners at home what your resolution was for this year.

John Puma: 1:24
my resolution was to get some formal sake education. most of my education, I am self taught, I guess you’d say. And you know, I’ve done it by reading books, by tasting things, by going places, by doing things. I haven’t had the thing where you sit down and actually learn the thing. And I find that in a lot of places in your life, you do learn a lot from hands on. experience. But you do have holes in your wisdom when you don’t get proper education. Uh, you know, there’s a lot of concepts that I understand, but I don’t necessarily know the names of those concepts and how and why I know the thing. I don’t know the why. And so the idea is I want to learn all those things and have Some kind of certification that I can put on my wall or, uh, or, or put in the show notes when I finally do it.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:18
Well, you know, I know a guy

John Puma: 2:20
You don’t, do you? I thought you might. After all, what do you, what do we say here? Uh, you’re a sake educator, sake samurai and a sake educator? Yes, and the founder of the Urban Sake website. Do you do, is it, do you have any other, anything else that you, um, that you run or

Timothy Sullivan: 2:37
well, I’m going to need to update our intro because, uh, yeah, there’s some, uh, shameless self promotion about to happen. but I’ve been working on a big project since last November. I’ve mentioned it here and there on the podcast, but I thought today we might devote some time to talking about Something I’ve been working on for the past few months, which is the Sake Studies Center at Brooklyn Kura. And this is a sake education school that we’ve established at Brooklyn Kura, which is New York State’s first sake brewery. They just had a big expansion. They increased the size of their production facility. They increased the size of their taproom. And I was brought in. Last November to start running classes in the Study Center. So if you indulge me today, JP, I wanted to talk a little bit about the course offerings we have there and what the Study Center is all about, because I think it’s an amazing resource for people who want to learn about sake.

John Puma: 3:41
Alright, so is this going to be like one of those things where you go to the timeshare and they sit you down and you’re going to try and sell me on it?

Timothy Sullivan: 3:48
Sit through my presentation and you’ll get a,

John Puma: 3:51
this is actually, something I think is interesting and I I have been to the space where the sake study center is, but I have not been present during a sake study center event. So, um, this is kind of nice to be able to Chat about it and, uh, you know, get a little knowledge, get a little information about this. and then, uh, I think also, Tim, we’re, we’re going to be tasting some sake as well, right? Um, where, where is this sake going to be coming from?

Timothy Sullivan: 4:16
yeah, well, I brought in a Brooklyn Kura sake for us to taste today. I thought it was only appropriate

John Puma: 4:23
I thought so too. the best thing about this brooklyn Kura has a subscription service called Kura Kin and I have been a member since day one I think they I want to say they launched this in 2020. And so the ability to have sake delivered to your home was Suddenly, very, very appealing, because you really couldn’t go out too much. And so once a month they ship a certain, uh, usually two bottles to your home. Typically one of the bottles is the, is one of their normal quote unquote, we’re going to say normal, uh, sake is their blue door or their number 14, their, their, their flagship sakes. And then the other one is. Something a little different right something a little sometimes something a little weird sometimes something a little seasonal And that’s uh, that’s like where it gets to be a lot of fun And the sake we’re going to be tasting today is one of the one of those interesting weird ones I’m excited to get around to it, but we we’ve got to earn that tim. So I need to learn about learning. So teach me about teaching. Really?

Timothy Sullivan: 5:26
I want to mention that we did an episode last year called Back to School, where we talked about all the education offerings that were available in the States. And that was before the Sake Studies Center opened. So I think it’s good for us to revisit. That’s one of our most popular episodes, by the way, based on downloads. So I think there’s a demand out there for education. And I think it’s appropriate that we kind of refresh that and talk about. This new offering at Brooklyn Kura and the types of classes that we have there, the events we have there, and who might be interested in coming. So the first thing I’ll say is that the Sake Studies Center is open to everybody. We have a Portfolio of classes that we offer for consumers. These are usually 90 minutes long. They involve a tasting and a brewery tour. And then we also offer courses that are intended for professionals. So these are usually one day classes where we do training for restaurant staff and things like that. So we do some professional training, but mostly we focus on getting consumers comfortable with tasting sake.

John Puma: 6:36
Okay. Because yeah, I, I think people should understand that learning about sake is, is like a two-way thing. It’s, it’s beneficial for people who are tasting sake to, to learn about it, um, and to learn about tasting sake and that experience, kinda like people going to wine tasting classes all the time. Uh, and then you’ve got the other side of it where you’re kind of. learning how to introduce people to sake. Is that, is that the idea basically?

Timothy Sullivan: 7:00
Absolutely. We’ve got an intro to sake course, which is our foundational course. We offer that most often, and that’s, you know, a 90 minute class where we do all the sake basics. We taste four sakes, we have a few little bites for food pairing, and then we do a brewery tour. So it’s a crash course on the basics. I call it everything you need to be dangerous with a sake menu. And, you know,

John Puma: 7:26
I like that. That’s pretty good.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:28
Yeah, we just want to give people enough confidence to know the different classifications and understand what the ingredients are, have walked through a brewery, tasted a variety of styles, and they can take that knowledge. And then when they’re in a restaurant next time, staring at a sake menu, or they’re in the liquor store looking at the shelf with all the sakes on it, they’ll know some of those terms and they’ll be able to make a more informed decision when they buy sake next time. So that’s really the goal of that 101 class.

John Puma: 7:59
So let’s say, you know, you’ve, you’ve done your 101 class and you’re, excited, you’re, you’re interested. What, what’s, what’s next? Not

Timothy Sullivan: 8:08
but one of our, do you know where I’m going with this?

John Puma: 8:11
yet. I’m very curious. Mm

Timothy Sullivan: 8:14
One of our most popular food pairing classes is our sake and cheese

John Puma: 8:20
Oh, yeah. Yeah, that’s definitely not for me.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:25
You and I’ve been talking about a sake and cheese episode for Sake Revolution for a long time, which hasn’t happened

John Puma: 8:30
No, I am a major hurdle to making that happen.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:36
for those scratching their heads, John Puma is a cheese. Hater? Is that fair to say?

John Puma: 8:42
Hater means, hater sounds like I’ve got some kind of vendetta or I have something against cheese. I don’t have anything against cheese personally. I just don’t enjoy eating it. Or smelling it or

Timothy Sullivan: 8:55
Or looking at

John Puma: 8:56
at it really. It’s I just, all right, fine. I don’t like cheese.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:59
Okay. Well, even though this class isn’t for you in particular, it’s been very popular at the Sake Study Center. We take five sakes and we pair them with five different types of cheese. And one thing I want to make clear is that We introduce other sakes, not just Brooklyn Kura sake. So Brooklyn Kura is always in the mix in these classes, but we have a lot of sakes brought in from Japan, and you can taste a variety of sake. Some people think it’s at Brooklyn Kura, so it’s every class is only Brooklyn Kura sake, but that’s not true. This sake and cheese course, we, we pick five different sakes, different styles, and we pair them with different cheeses, and it is a lot of fun.

John Puma: 9:42
I’ll take your word for it.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:44
Yeah, you’ll have to, you’ll have to take my word for that one. I will say that when I was cleaning up the classroom last time, I picked up a napkin and there was, Five crumpled packets of lactate under there. So someone attending the class was chomping down on lactate between every bite of cheese.

John Puma: 10:07
I mean, let me tell you that if I were to take that class, I would need to do that. That’s for sure. I cannot, uh, cannot handle the lactose. Unfortunately.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:17
let’s move on from sake and cheese. How about sake and desserts? How does that

John Puma: 10:21
That sounds like fun. I like dessert. I like sake. So yeah. Uh, let’s, let’s talk a little bit about that.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:30
remember Eat Your Sake? Do you remember that episode we did?

John Puma: 10:33
Yeah, of course. That was, uh, that was fun. We got to, uh, have some ice cream, which by the way, uh, for anybody concerned at home, interestingly enough, ice cream doesn’t bother me in the least.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:44
okay,

John Puma: 10:46
I don’t, I don’t make the rules. I don’t know why it happens that way, but you know, this is the way it is

Timothy Sullivan: 10:51
well, that’s, that’s very fortunate. I would feel sad for you if you were denied cheese and ice cream, so what we did in the Eat Your Sake episode was we actually took an eight year aged Kijoshu and we poured it over the ice cream as a sauce, as a topping. And that is one of the courses of the sake and desserts class that we do at the study center. Did you enjoy that pairing?

John Puma: 11:15
Uh, I sure did. Uh, it, it sounds to me like you guys just have a lot of fun,

Timothy Sullivan: 11:21
Yes,

John Puma: 11:22
That’s pretty cool. the question I have for, and this is a little self-serving, um, what I, with John Puma for my resolution, am I taking the 1 0 1 class or do I need to scoot into like one of the, um, one of the more business oriented classes? Mm

Timothy Sullivan: 11:40
I think that your resolution was focused on getting a certificate. And currently at the study center, we only offer certificates for the full day professional class.

John Puma: 11:51
Mm, you gotta earn it. That’s how it is.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:54
You got to earn it. You got to put in the

John Puma: 11:57
Gotta put in the time. If you, uh, if you, if, yes, exactly. You have to put in the time. So, yeah, that’s interesting. You know, that may, may be a thing we have to look into. How’s it gonna go? Full day, huh?

Timothy Sullivan: 12:07
Yeah. I can tell you about that course. It’s the called the sake server certification.

John Puma: 12:12
Sake server certification. And I guess I will be learning how to serve sake. Mm

Timothy Sullivan: 12:16
Yes. It’s designed specifically for people who work in restaurants or for people who sell sake in a retail store. So this is kind of an underserved community. I think in a lot of the educational programs that are out there, we focus a one day course specifically on training people. in the sake basics, um, sake communication and sales techniques for introducing and selling sake. And then we do a whole module on serving, pouring, etiquette and stuff like that.

John Puma: 12:47
that sounds lovely. That does sound like something I would benefit from. You’ve seen me pour sake, Tim. It’s ugly.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:55
No comment.

John Puma: 12:58
You made some snide remarks at Thanksgiving dinner when I was pouring you

Timothy Sullivan: 13:03
I did? What did I say?

John Puma: 13:06
Nothing overt, nothing too mean, but you gave me a little bit of a, you can approve on this, kind of

Timothy Sullivan: 13:11
Did I, did I give you the samurai side eye?

John Puma: 13:14
Uh, maybe a touch, just a little bit. And I was like, Oh man, I gotta, I gotta up my game. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:24
Well, uh, there is an exam for that, John.

John Puma: 13:27
Oh, I think that what I’m envisioning involves an exam. So this is

Timothy Sullivan: 13:31
Yeah. Yeah. So when you, when you take the sake server certification, you come to Brooklyn Kura. We also offer it online for people who are not in the New York City area. It’s, I think it’s better to come in person if you’re nearby or if you’re going to be in New York because you can do the brewery tour live and in person. Whereas the online version, I walk around with my iPhone and I show you the brewery, but it’s just not the same as being there in

John Puma: 13:58
I would, I would agree with you on that one. I think that, uh, you know, TV is never as good as being in that person.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:04
Yeah. But, uh, when you, when you complete the course, whether you’ve taken it online or in person, uh, at the end of the course, I send you a link and you have two weeks to do an online quiz, an online exam. It’s one hour, it’s 100 questions and you have to get, it’s multiple choice and you have to get 75 percent correct to pass. And then you get a certificate in the mail.

John Puma: 14:27
Okay. cool. maybe I need to look into that.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:29
Yeah.

John Puma: 14:30
Good relevant question. What’s this all cost?

Timothy Sullivan: 14:34
Oh, yeah. So the, the intro to sake, of course, is the least expensive and that is around 75. And then the cheese pairing course, the desserts course, those are 99. And then the sake server certification is currently 150.

John Puma: 14:57
Okay. That’s all sounds reasonable. I imagine you’ll be sipping a bunch of sake as well That’s that’s part of you know

Timothy Sullivan: 15:05
yeah, there’s, uh, sake and nibbles with every course and every course we offer, every single one includes a brewery tour,

John Puma: 15:15
Okay Mm

Timothy Sullivan: 15:16
an add on, value add on. You can walk through the brewery, you can see the sites, Smell the smells. and, you

John Puma: 15:25
Are these tours ever done, uh, during brewing or is it, uh, generally they clear out first?

Timothy Sullivan: 15:31
Brewing is usually concentrated in the morning time, like 9, 10, 11. So sometimes for the sake server certification, we can catch the brewers in action.

John Puma: 15:41
Nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:42
The consumer courses are either, they’re usually, like an evening on a Wednesday or a Friday, or we have them on the afternoon on a Saturday or Sunday.

John Puma: 15:52
Well, that makes sense.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:53
Great thing is that even if you don’t see the brewers in action at that moment, there’s the, I’m not joking about smelling the smells, like when you go into the pressing room and there’s the giant yabuta, they’re pressing now in there and It could be running overnight and you’re going to smell this intense fruity aroma coming off the press. And it’s really intoxicating and beautiful and just makes you fall in love with sake all over again. So it’s a true experiential, tour. So, and we love to have people taste a little bit of koji or sip some moromi from a batch that’s, currently bubbling away in the tank. So our, our tagline in this, I came up with this myself. Do you want to hear the marketing genius tagline? So the tagline is, learn about sake where sake is made.

John Puma: 16:44
Hey, that is, that is accurate. That’s what you’re doing. Sake is definitely made on site and you’re learning.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:51
Yes, you’re learning. I just think that having the sake school the site of a working sake brewery is unique in a our country. It’s the only school that is located at a sake brewery. So we can give you the in depth education and you can tour the brewery and taste all the steps along the way through the production process. So that’s, that’s super unique. And that’s what gets me really excited.

John Puma: 17:18
That’s pretty cool and for you this must be particularly exciting because you’ve been You know into sake education for a very long time Tim And you’ve got your own place now, you know, you’re going to kind of run these these events Design them if you’re even if you are you generally teaching most of the classes or even all of them.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:42
Right now I’m teaching all the classes. We’ve only been up and running since November of 2023, but our goal is to have. A number of teachers teaching classes, and we’re creating our own curriculum, but it’s important for me to mention here as well that we invite other educators to come to our classroom and teach as well. So one example is we have Michael Tremblay, who’s been on our podcast before, and he teaches this sake scholar certification. Which is a very advanced course about terroir and sake regionality. It’s a three day class, really intense. And he’s coming to Brooklyn Kura in October to teach at the Sake Study Center. So not only do we do our own classes, most of which I’m teaching right now, but we also invite other educators to come. And we’ve also had the Sake School of America come in and they’ve taught the WSET level three. in our classroom. And that’s been great to have other teachers come in as well. And the advantage for them is that they can do that brewery tour. And when they talk about koji making in their materials, we can go up to the koji room and, you know, taste some koji and see what it looks like. So it’s a win win situation for everybody. And our goal is to just expand the opportunities for education all around, all around.

John Puma: 19:08
Excellent. That sounds pretty cool. just to let everybody know at home, uh, you may, you may think that if you are in the New York area, you may consider, Industry City where. This is located to be, it’s a bit of a trip, but, and I say this without exaggeration, I feel like every day there’s more stuff to do around there, in industry city. you know, there’s plenty of shopping, there’s amazing restaurants, there are small distilleries in the, in the area too. And I think a beer brewery as well, you can really make a day out of it and see a lot of different things and experience a lot of stuff.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:41
That’s such a great point, John. Industry City, where Brooklyn Kura is located, is a destination in and of itself. So when people, when people come in to do like the sake server training and they’re there all day, they get a one hour lunch break and they can go to Japan Village. They can go to the food court. And there’s all types of things to explore for lunch. And then when class is over, there’s distilleries, there’s beer breweries, uh, there’s a tap room at Brooklyn Kura. You can, have a drink after class and just enjoy yourself. So it’s a real destination and we’re so happy to be a part of the community at Industry City and it is every year it’s growing bigger and more dynamic.

John Puma: 20:22
awesome. So, maybe it’s time we, we cracked open this sake and talked a little bit about this latest offering from, Kura Kin.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:32
Yes. So Kura Kin, again, as you said before, is the. Subscription service. John, do you get it monthly or every two months? How often do you get it

John Puma: 20:39
monthly. Um, I, I, like I said before, I really like getting the, special bottles like, like this, for example, and seeing like what they’re up to. I think that’s a lot of fun. it feels like we’re shilling a little bit here, but I really do authentically, like this service. I, I, I wish there were more, craft breweries that were doing something like this, uh, hint, hint, hint.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:01
Yeah. Kura Kin is amazing. And one of the things that is really special about it, as you mentioned, is that you get these limited release bottles, which is what we’re going to taste today. It’s not available. If you go to your local liquor Kura, these are limited edition bottles that you can get in the tap room. If you visit the tap room in person, or if you Sign up for the subscription service. All right. So John, why don’t you introduce us to the delicious sake we’re about to taste?

John Puma: 21:31
Sure. Uh, so this one is a, uh, Nama Chozo Junmai Ginjo. Most of the additional bottles that come through are nama Chozo or have been historically.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:42
Do you want to remind us what namachozo?

John Puma: 21:44
Namachozo means that it has been pasteurized, but once,

Timothy Sullivan: 21:48
Correct.

John Puma: 21:49
the sake is all Yamada Nishiki, and it’s milled down to 60%, uh, the ABV is 16%. The sake meter value, that measure of dry to sweet, is minus 5. 7, so it’s a touch on the sweet side. But, the acidity is 2. 6, Tim. You know what that means. Balance. Balance. At least that’s what I’m hoping for. I’ve actually never tasted this one. I haven’t opened it yet. Um, and for the record, I have bottle number 182. These are numbered. What’s yours? Ooh, okay, not too far. They’re

Timothy Sullivan: 22:22
What’s, what’s this, uh, what’s this special edition called?

John Puma: 22:25
Oh yeah, I never, I never mentioned that. Oh it is called Brooklyn Kura near and far Now the name Tim I think I believe the name is is a is a pun about the transition between their original brewery and their new facility now was this made at the new facility or the old facility? Would you happen to know that?

Timothy Sullivan: 22:45
I do know that for sure. This Sake was made at the old facility, so the small batch facility, and we moved from 68 34th street down to 34 34th street in Sunset Park, Brooklyn. So near and far, we felt like during the transition, we would go back and forth. And, uh, so that’s where the name near and far comes from for this limited edition Junmai Ginjo.

John Puma: 23:16
excellent. Excellent. All right. Well, let’s crack it open and get it in the glass. You can see what one of the last batches to come out of that brewery is gonna taste like. At Sake Revolution, we generally encourage people to make use of the wine glasses they have at home, because you probably already have wine glasses at home. So, They’re real easy to sip out of. They capture the aroma of sake exceptionally well. Um, and again, you’ve already got them. All right, Tim, let’s get the nose going. What do we have here? Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:03
Well, I have a little note here from Brooklyn Kura that says this has notes of golden apple and hints of melon.

John Puma: 24:12
All right.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:14
I think I picked up more on the apple aromatics than melon per se.

John Puma: 24:19
I definitely don’t pick up on the melon too much. So yes, I’m

Timothy Sullivan: 24:21
Yeah.

John Puma: 24:22
you. It’s got a really pleasant

Timothy Sullivan: 24:25
Hmm.

John Puma: 24:27
It would have taken a while for me to arrive at Golden Apple, though. Hmm. I like that. It’s kind of, it’s almost a little, like the nose is almost a little jammy. Just a ton, you know, not like, I know that when we talk about jammies, like woohoo, but you know, this is a very light one. Light

Timothy Sullivan: 24:45
Yeah.

John Puma: 24:45
a little bit.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:47
Yeah, I pick up on notes of strawberry, and this is going to be very random, but you know when you are trimming strawberries, and you cut off all the green bits on the top, and you pile them up in a little bowl?

John Puma: 25:02
them off?

Timothy Sullivan: 25:02
off the green bits on the top of

John Puma: 25:04
I just, I just, bite them off. I just bite. Right? But no, it’s actually not true. I just, um, I pluck them off and I eat everything, including the stem, but I pluck off the green bits.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:17
Okay, let’s go. Envision this, jP.

John Puma: 25:20
I know, I know, I know, people who do it that way. I married to somebody who does it that way. Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:31
and I need to prepare the strawberry. So I’m cutting off the green bits and I’ve got a bowl of those green stems. Okay.

John Puma: 25:39
Got it.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:40
to your nose and and smell the strawberry leaves and stems, it kind of smells like

John Puma: 25:46
Okay. All right. I’m with you.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:49
So there’s a little bit of fruitiness, but I think the golden apple and. Strawberry

John Puma: 25:56
the strawberry is really front of mind now for me. I’m going to be really disappointed if this doesn’t taste like strawberries.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:04
Let’s give it a taste.

John Puma: 26:05
All right, let’s, let’s see what it actually does taste like.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:12
Okay, so your note about jamminess comes across more in the mouth, right? it

John Puma: 26:20
It’s nice. Um, this is fun. This is a fun sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:25
does have an apple crisp taste to it.

John Puma: 26:29
I will say that it’s a little warm in my apartment and we do turn off the air for these recordings. And so this has been sitting for a little bit as we’ve been recording. And I think it’s approaching room tempi. And I think that’s making the jamminess come out a little bit more. And I like it. I think it’s doing it favors. It’s really nice. we’ve, we’ve talked a little bit about how, you know, you don’t have to really warm up a sake necessarily. You can just, you know, give it a few degrees. and this really comes across as something that to me, at least is really benefiting from just a few degrees, North of my usual kind of, uh, 40, 42 degrees that I usually have sake. What do you think?

Timothy Sullivan: 27:10
Yeah, mine is relatively well chilled, so I, I think it, it tastes great at that temperature as well. And the more this is resting on my palate, I’m getting, we talked about golden apple, but also green apple, like that is finally solidifying in my mind. It’s like, ah, it’s like green apple, Granny Smith, apple flavors. That’s coming through really,

John Puma: 27:32
Granny Smith. Mmm. That’s some good stuff.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:37
Yeah, it’s it, but it does have a little bit of a jammy texture to it, meaning that it’s not bone dry. It’s got a hint of richness. This is only once pasteurized and it’s all Yamada Nishiki. So that can help bring out those fruit flavors because it supplies a lot of starch to the, to the moromi mash. So, uh, yeah, really well crafted. I think this is a tinge sweeter than most their standard sakes.

John Puma: 28:06
so I will say that I only know of a couple of other sake’s where Brooklyn Kura has done a full, full Yamada Nishiki, and I think that usually when they do, it comes out pretty dry, and I like that they went the other direction with this one, and let it get a little sweet, and tried something different.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:26
Yeah, so this is, an example of the type of sake you would be able to enjoy at the Sake Studies Center. If we have limited releases like this I often fold them into the sakes that we taste in class. So we try to keep things interesting and unique and really focus on the pairings or make sure that the sakes we taste are very relevant to the topic or what we’re trying to get across in the class.

John Puma: 28:53
mmm, nice. All right. So, Tim, we’ve, uh, we’ve talked about education. We’ve sipped some delicious sake. where can, uh, people who are curious about taking one of these courses or perhaps tasting some of the sake, where can they do that?

Timothy Sullivan: 29:09
the website is, uh, Sake studies center.com.

John Puma: 29:14
hmm. Mm

Timothy Sullivan: 29:15
we also have an Instagram at sake studies center. And you can also visit the Brooklyn Kura website and connect through. Uh, but if you want to visit us directly, sake studies center.com, and there’s a courses page and we have a full list of all the courses we’re offering. we have the sake and. Cheese course, the introduction to sake. We have the sake server course, coming up soon. We also have, uh, sake and desserts. And one other course that is going to be hitting the calendar very soon is a sparkling

John Puma: 29:52
Ooh, that’s going to be interesting.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:55
Yeah, it’s a survey of five different types of sparkling sake and a little pairing to go with each one. So I think in the summer when it gets a little warmer, some ice cold sparkling sake would be really good.

John Puma: 30:09
That sounds like a good time.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:11
Yeah.

John Puma: 30:12
Cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:13
Well, I welcome every one of our sake revolution listeners to check out the Sake Study Center. Thanks for indulging me today with a little bit of self promotion. And I’m so, so happy

John Puma: 30:26
I like that you’re, I like that you’re being straightforward about it. Like,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:28
yeah, yes,

John Puma: 30:29
self promotion,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:31
it is. But I think, you know, I think honestly, our listeners would probably be interested in what’s happening at the Sake Study Center.

John Puma: 30:39
right?

Timothy Sullivan: 30:41
from the Sake Revolution audience comes to the Study Center. Please let us know when you sign up. There’s a little form when you sign up and you can put a message in there. Let us know if you’re a Sake Revolution listener because we’d love to connect with you when you come into class.

John Puma: 30:56
Oh, so if I do it, I have to say, yes, I am a listener. guess.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:02
Yes. Yes. You have to say you’re a sake revolution listener.

John Puma: 31:05
noted. noted.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:07
so John, am I going to see you in class?

John Puma: 31:08
Yeah, let’s see, I mean, I’ll, I’ll class. I don’t know which class yet. Uh, you know, I, I, I’ll figure something out.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:17
Okay. We’re halfway through the year. You’ve got, you’ve got about six months or so to figure it out.

John Puma: 31:22
halfway?

Timothy Sullivan: 31:23
Almost.

John Puma: 31:24
Oh my God. Oh, I wasn’t ready for that. All right. Well, hey, all right. Good to know.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:31
All right. Well, John, this was so much fun. Thanks for letting me introduce the Sake Studies Center and thanks for tasting a Brooklyn Kura Sake. I think this one is really delicious and I think this bottle is going to disappear pretty soon.

John Puma: 31:43
They usually do

Timothy Sullivan: 31:44
I usually do, right? A thank you as well to all our listeners and a special shout out, hello, and extra special thank you to our patrons. Thank you so much for contributing to our podcast. Without you, Sake Revolution would not be possible. So we’re so grateful. If any of our listeners would like to learn more about supporting us as a patron, please visit Patreon.com/SakeRevolution.

John Puma: 32:10
yes, and also if you have a moment, please take it and Review our show over at Apple podcasts or your podcast platform of choice It really helps get the word out about the show and you know People hear about us a little bit more quickly when they look up sake stuff and they say America’s first time Oh, look at that. And and hopefully they give us a listen. That’s that’s That’s the goal. That’s the, that’s the dream. Uh, so yeah, please take a few minutes and do that if you can. So on that note, please grab your glass. Remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai! All right.

Episode 170. We were so happy to sit down to chat and sip sake with our friend Ryan Mellinger, the General Manager of the Joto Sake imports portfolio at Kobrand. Ryan explains to us, in an easy to understand way, the intricacies of the complex “three tier system” of alcohol distribution that we have in the States and all that goes into getting fresh and delicious sake all the way from Japan to local stores and restaurants for us to enjoy. Speaking of delicious sake, we also taste an intriguing selection from Joto’s portfolio – the Chikurin Fukamari Junmai, which is a sake blended with previous year’s batches to give it added depth and dimension. Listen in as we explore all things Joto Sake with Ryan! #SakeRevolution

---

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

---

Skip to: 01:09 Interview: Ryan Mellinger

Ryan Mellinger is the General Manager of Joto Sake at Kobrand Corporation. Born and raised in NYC, Ryan she got her start working in culinary at some of New York’s beloved kitchens. Through this window Ryan learned of the nuance and history of Japanese Sake and went on to work for lead artisanal Sake importer Joto Sake in 2015. Nine years later Ryan has grown into her role now overseeing the National Sake Sales Team and managing a diverse and extensive craft sake portfolio. Ryan is an expert communicator of Sake’s beauty and versatility, no matter what the occasion, cuisine, or venue. Ryan is certified in WSET Sake L3 and a Sake Scholar.

Founded in 2005, Joto Sake is one of the leading artisanal sake portfolios in the U.S. Joto is Japanese for “highest level” and describes the makers of our sake and our aspirations as their importer. We represent ten multi-generational, family-owned, jizake (local) breweries. These breweries are located throughout Japan, producing sake in small batches with indigenous rice varieties, offering flavors and styles ideal for a range of cuisines. Our passion for breweries that have rich and wonderful histories makes them fun to learn about and explore. We hope you enjoy!

---

Skip to: 19:25 Sake Tasting: Chikurin Fumamari Junmai

Chikurin Fukamari Junmai

BREWERY: Marumoto Shuzo
ACIDITY: 1.4
REGION: Okayama
GRADE: Junmai
SEMAIBUAI: 60%
NIHONSHUDO: +2
RICE: Homegrown Yamada Nishiki
YEAST: #9
PRESSING: Yabuta
Brand: Chikurin
Importer/Distributor: Joto

About Marumoto Shuzo

This sake is made by the Marumoto Brewery, founded in 1867 in Okayama Prefecture at the base of the Chikurin mountains. It is an estate-grown sake, using 100% Yamada Nishiki rice grown by the brewers. They grow their rice according to high ecological standards, favoring high quality over high yields. The Chikurin mountains are also home to the largest astrophysical observatory in Japan. For the same reason Okayama is known for its high-quality rice and produce, it is also perfect for stargazing; called “The Land of Sunshine”, Okayama boasts some of the highest number of clear days in Japan.

Fukamari Junmai is made in a unique solera-like aging process developed by 6th generation President and Toji, Niichiro Marumoto. Each bottle is a blend of new and 3-8 years’ aged sake. This process adds incredible depth and flavor to the finished sake. Inspired by deep field long-lasting observations of space, Marumoto san explores how time and history reveal new flavors and traits in the sake.

---

Skip to: 31:58 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

---

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

• Sake Enthusiast

  Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.
  Join for $3/month

• Sake Otaku

  As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!
  Join for $5/month

---

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody. And welcome to podcast. I’m your host, John Puma from the Sake Notes. Also the administrator over at the Friendly Neighborhood Internet Sake Discord and Reddit’s r slash sake community.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:35
And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m a sake educator, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:53
Hello, Tim. How are you doing

Timothy Sullivan: 0:54
I’m doing good.

John Puma: 0:56
I could not help, but notice that the zoom is the windows in the zoom are a little smaller than usual because there’s a third person here.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:03
We have a special guest today. So

John Puma: 1:05
Aha. That’s what it was. And who do we have here?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:09
I’m so excited to welcome Ryan Mellinger. She is a General manager of Joto Sake over at Kobrant. We’re going to learn a lot more about what she does in sake sales and distribution. And we’re so excited to have Ryan here today to talk to us about sake. Welcome Ryan.

Ryan Mellinger: 1:27
Hi, thank you for having me, John and Tim. It’s a pleasure.

John Puma: 1:33
Yeah. Tim and I have known Ryan for a very long time. And it’s, it’s nice to have you on the show and get into the, I don’t know if we’ve ever gotten into the distribution part of the sake world on the show before. So this is for people listening at home, remember this is very U. S. centric. This is how it’s done here. Your local mileage may vary. Also every state has different laws too, which I’m sure we’ll get into a little bit, let’s just dive right in, you get into all of this? How do you tell us about your background? How do you get into sake?

Ryan Mellinger: 2:02
A very windy road. I’m very, excited to have this as my job, selling sake every day. but it’s definitely not something I thought I would be doing, spending every day doing uh, when I was in college or whatnot, but, I’m, born and raised New Yorker, grew up in New York City in downtown Manhattan,

John Puma: 2:20
Ooh.

Ryan Mellinger: 2:21
surrounded by amazing restaurants and food culture and people from all walks of life. my parents were big, foodies, I guess wasn’t the word to use back then, they exposed my brother and I to a lot of things growing up. I always tell people, you know, in New York City, when I was growing up, there’s pizza place on every corner and there’s a sushi restaurant. I grew up eating Japanese food, of course. My tastes have evolved much since then. But so food and restaurant culture has been in my life, from a young age. And then, I started working in service jobs in high school. I went to college in New York. I guess I just couldn’t leave. And during that time I started, for work I would, I would do catering gigs and, started to become more interested in the back of house and cooking. And when I graduated with a degree from photography, I I didn’t want to sit in front of a computer all day, and I liked the pace and the energy of the kitchen, so I should try working in restaurants. And I had actually had built a little catering business of my own, of clients that were calling me back and, decided to just dive in. So I worked in restaurants in New York City, for a few years, very difficult work, especially back then as a young woman. I’m sure it still is. And hopefully getting better. And then, I started working for my friend’s company who, makes bean to bar chocolate out of downtown Brooklyn. And that’s where I started to really make friends and learn about other businesses in Red Hook, Brooklyn that were on the alcohol side of the industry, on the beverage side. And it was really exciting. I was doing a lot of events with them to help promote Red Hook and get people to come visit, pairing chocolate with whiskey, chocolate with beer, chocolate with wine, and, all the while I was learning about fermentation alcohol and, by the way, chocolate is also fermented. Some people don’t know that. I was learning about sake just through my own love of Japanese food and I was then I was actively searching to find work on the beverage side of the business, and Joto sake was hiring, and I had had sake on my own, was drinking it on my own, going to Japanese restaurants, but I never sold it. So I really blindly said, Hey, I really love sake. I want to learn more. I would like to try to sell it for a living. And Henry Seidel at the time and Midori Nakazawa gave me a shot. And that was 10 years ago.

John Puma: 4:49
I don’t know.

Ryan Mellinger: 4:50
So pretty windy road, but following my love for food and drink led me to sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:58
Let me ask you this. John and I have talked about this so many times, but did you have one? particular experience you remember that was your aha moment or like, Oh my God, sake is a thing. Tell us what was your aha

John Puma: 5:09
yes,

Ryan Mellinger: 5:10
You You know, I remember it vividly because one of my best friends is like my dining partner. We always go out to good restaurants together and we have dates doing that. And he and I I didn’t have much money in college like anyone and would afford to go out to the good restaurants during restaurant week, and really took advantage of that. And I remember going to EN Japanese Brasserie we were really excited to go. I heard all about how they make homemade tofu and I was sitting at the bar. I remember exactly the seat I was in and I’d never seen a sake list like they had. It was incredible, a little daunting, but we were very excited to try. And I had this amazing glass. I don’t know what it was. That was so long ago, but I remember it being umami and a little bit smoky and just soft and creamy. And I was like This is great. What have we been drinking? Because also in New York City, there, in the really cheap days there’s like all these places that would just give you like a free shot of some probably box sake, or so I was like used to that kind of variety at the time. My first experience with premium quality sake was eye opening.

John Puma: 6:21
Cool. That’s awesome. Uh, I, I, it’s a shame that you don’t know what it was though, but I’m glad you know exactly actually probably more

Ryan Mellinger: 6:28
a chance to go to En, it’s a very impressive restaurant, really beautiful, and just, and still going strong now. That was like 15 years ago, I think, or maybe longer. Yeah,

John Puma: 6:39
Yeah,

Ryan Mellinger: 6:40
yes, they are.

John Puma: 6:42
they’re own tofu. know, You went through this, uh, you went through this this whole thing and now you’re You went down this windy road and now you’re a uh, Sake division at Kobrand uh, tell us, um, you know. Tell us a don’t you know, about Joto? what’s what’s Joto If

Ryan Mellinger: 6:55
So Joto

John Puma: 6:55
is like, what’s Joto They

Ryan Mellinger: 6:56
the

John Puma: 6:56
So what’s Joto

Ryan Mellinger: 6:58
comprised of about 45 different sake. They’re all from 10 different family owned breweries in Japan. So we’re an importing sake company. The company was actually founded in 2005 by Henry Seidel Shout out to Henry who had the vision to create a select sake portfolio that was Joto. Joto means highest quality. In practice, that meant having a very focused, curated portfolio of breweries that had a story to tell with great philosophies, histories unique rice strains, yeast, really bringing, great quality sake at a range of price points to the United States, and then In addition to that, having a really strong focus on the education side of it, and the accessibility side, and really making bridging that gap between the distance, and 2005 was a very different sake environment I didn’t get involved Henry didn’t hire me until 2014, so it had already been 10 years sake building from the ground up in New York City. And obviously, Tim, you’re part of that and John. So that’s what Joto means. So I joined the company in 2014 and then in 2016, we joined Kobrand Wine and Spirits, which is another family owned company much like our breweries that was founded in 1944. So they have also a very impressive history. And and legacy. Now, as I said, 10 years later, I am head of the sake division at Kobrand, so managing our sake portfolio as general manager. So I do a lot of different things. I could share with you some of them if they’re of interest. Yeah, so

John Puma: 8:39
yeah, let’s, uh, give us a few highlights, I

Ryan Mellinger: 8:41
overseas. With them and our ordering teams here, I manage inventory and pricing, coordinating orders and projections to the future of our needs across the country. I develop and manage our sales and marketing budgets, which sets our priorities for the years. I also coordinate annual trips to Japan with our sales teams and vice versa, coordinate trips for our brewers to come visit us in the States. So depending on where you are around the country, hopefully there will be events that you can meet some of our producers. They do come annually. I’m also in charge of research and development for our portfolio and creating all the promotional materials. And then last but not least, I manage our national sake sales teams, which currently consists of three amazing people each based in California, New York, and Florida.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:31
Now is Joto sake an importer, a distributor? And could you explain a little bit about that landscape, how importing and distribution works a bit?

Ryan Mellinger: 9:41
Yes. Oh my gosh. It’s a very layered and sometimes frustrating system that the United States has us work with. But for those not familiar the United States has a three tier regulatory structure for alcohol sales. Uh, At the top of the tier, the supply chain are importers, of products from abroad or, a domestic winery or brewery who make the alcohol locally. From there, the producer or the importer, which is what we do we must sell the goods into state level distributors. That’s the second tier. There’s many distributors across the country some have multi state distribution, some are just in one state there’s pros and cons to all sorts of big and small, depending on what your business needs. And every state has very nitty gritty different alcohol laws, making it even more difficult to navigate. And then at the third tier, you have the retail stores, the retailers, the restaurants, the bars that the distributor has to sell into. So as a, you person walking down the street and you want to go buy, beer, a wine, a sake, you have to buy from a retailer or a restaurant. You cannot purchase from the second tier distributor or the importer directly. So there are exceptions for, as we know like domestic breweries or producers to sell direct to consumer locally, such as Kato Sake Works in Brooklyn, Kura. You can go up and order a sake on tap, but as an importer, I can’t sell you bottle directly. It’s a very complicated, system that requires a lot of experience and knowledge to navigate successfully. So you can imagine some of the challenges that come with importing something like sake, which is from all the way around the world and making sure that inventory is consistent and fresh. And that the people selling at all levels are educated and knowledgeable about what they have in their portfolio to sell their restaurants and retailers. So that’s a large part of our, our job. But, our team, while we’re four people, We work directly with every level of this tier, so we’re often walking into stores with our distributor teammates and making those high level presentations about our sakes for their menus or their shelves. And, we also host events and tastings directly with those retailers and restaurant partners, so it’s not hard to find or engage with us. But the, all the in between is very complex and spidery, webby. Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan: 12:13
Yes. And all these different tiers and all this is a legacy of the repeal of prohibition and all these laws were set up in the 1930s. And it’s just a complicated web to navigate, especially with 50 different states, 50 sets of laws. So my heart goes out to you. It’s a lot to navigate, but you’re in the, importing tier. And, but you, as you just said, you interface with all the different levels. So you’re repping those sakes to distributors. You also go to probably retail stores and do tastings and things like that. So you’re probably really in touch with all those different levels of sales and distribution.

Ryan Mellinger: 12:55
yeah. I think working in sales is one of the most rewarding and difficult experiences. You really learn a lot. You’re on the ground, you’re doing the hard work, you’re talking to every different person. Yeah. knowledge level interest level, sometimes getting in front of people who are giving you all the time in the world, sometimes people who have no time, right? And you’re making, trying to make a case no matter what the day is. Or, getting people excited about sake and making it accessible. So yeah it is it is. Very interesting, and I think very rewarding to have worked on all, with all those different levels of the, of not just the three tier system, but also across the country, because the needs in New York are very different from the needs in Ohio, and very different from what Texas likes and what Miami’s drinking.

John Puma: 13:43
Yeah. One thing I think is interesting. So you guys, have like relatively small group of breweries that you work with, but you have like really yeah, I would say pretty deep relationships with them. So how do you guys select those breweries?

Ryan Mellinger: 13:57
Yeah, I mean, since 2005, we’re still only working with 10 suppliers, or 10 breweries. We have a range of sakes from them, so we cover a lot of ground. But the legacy that Henry built and that we have continued at Kobrand is one that is and he had obvious help from also other amazing people who worked for Joto and were my mentors as well. But the guiding principle is Keeping it, cohesive, representing a range of regions, styles, price points but really, you know, working with, we’re working with people. Obviously the sake has to be delicious and consistent and survive the journey across from Japan to the States and, that, that whole journey and still be consistently delicious and fresh. Which is a major feat of the brewers, but they have to know how to do that. So once we’ve gotten past that point, and we know that the sake is delicious and that they have really interesting story that makes it fun to talk about or relatable or intriguing to To customers. Then it’s about, the people. It’s do we jive? Are we going to be good partners? Cause we’re long term partners. And that’s really, in our mind, the only way to build brands, that are unknown here. Some of our breweries are more well known than others. Some of them are really, the epitome of jizake and really just selling locally in their region and are rarely found outside of that area. It’s our job as their importer to make sure that we’re building the recognition correctly and really educating people correctly on what makes this brewery special. So we don’t have um, sake breweries. That are from the same area. We try and not duplicate any region or any style too much. So, In thinking about how to develop the portfolio, it’s really what holes do we want to fill? What stories are we missing? What styles of sake? And, or, yeah, what can we do to stay relevant for what the restaurants and the retailers and the consumers are drinking now are?

John Puma: 15:50
Nice, nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:51
So you told us before about your aha moments when you discovered sake and began enjoying it and it led to your career. Love that. I’m curious, just personally, what are some of your favorite styles of sake? Now you don’t have to give us any name brands, but what type of sake do you like to drink on your own time and how do you enjoy them?

Ryan Mellinger: 16:14
I’m going to give me an answer you probably don’t like, but I don’t have one style that I stick to and it really has morphed throughout the years, you know, when I first started versus what I drink now, having drunk sake for so many years frequently but it really depends on the day or the weather. Or what I’m eating. Today is like 95 degrees in New York City. I want something that’s going to feel crisp and bright and a little acidity. Later on I could change my mind and want something that’s really fruity and a little creamy. I think I really don’t discriminate in terms of styles, but I think I tend to not, when I’m just going at home for a bottle or a glass, like Junmai Ginjos I really like pasteurized sake. I know it’s Namazake and Junmai Daiginjo all the rage and super appreciated right now, but I like a glass of that. Sometimes I find they can be overpowering on the palate or aromatically so if I’m Planning to have multiple glasses of something. It’s usually a Junmai or Junmai ginjo, something bright and a little bit of acidity and really balanced and pretty. I like something that has long lasting flavor too. Something that has a nice finish that I can think about. I don’t like sake that are unbalanced or feel too much in one direction or too short of a finish. I just, I appreciate a high quality sake. Now I sound like a real sake snob.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:42
No, not at all.

Ryan Mellinger: 17:44
It’s my job. What can I say?

John Puma: 17:46
it’s your, it is your job though. Now having said that we. As is what we do on this show, what We’re going to be tasting some high quality sake. And this is, so one thing I’ve noticed about Joto is that you guys don’t introduce new products willy nilly, like the portfolio is very it’s, you guys have what you have you focus on it. You think about, bringing in something new is a big

Ryan Mellinger: 18:06
hmm.

John Puma: 18:07
And this is new. So I’m excited because I personally have never tasted this before. Tim, I don’t know if you have.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:13
Ryan, is it new or is it returning

John Puma: 18:16
Oh, wait a minute. Hold on a second.

Ryan Mellinger: 18:20
Plot twist.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:22
I’m a hashtag sake senior. So I re I remember back into the olden days and this sake has been imported before. Is that right?

Ryan Mellinger: 18:32
Yes. Yeah, it was before my time Yes. Yes, it was over 10 years ago this sake called Chikurin Fukamari, it’s a Junmai. We import two other Chikurin sakes their Junmai Ginjo and their Nama Junmai Ginjo. And this had been imported and they stopped importing. I don’t think it was as well received, or um, like I said, a lot has changed in the sake atmosphere in the United States in the last 10 years. really fit a hole for us that we’ve been getting asked for more and more in the last four years or so

John Puma: 19:13
Nice.

Ryan Mellinger: 19:14
certainly. So it’s a reintroduction.

John Puma: 19:16
Aha. maybe when it was here, like world wasn’t ready. America was not yet ready for this sake and now is the time for it to come back and hopefully people are ready

Ryan Mellinger: 19:25
Marumoto brewery who makes the sake is such a dear partner of ours and makes incredible sake and it’s delicious and so many people love it but I think now there’s more of a knowledge base and a desire for it. More of this umami and high acidity styles of sake. So this

John Puma: 19:46
now.

Ryan Mellinger: 19:47
yeah. And part of what that’s all about is about the method in which he bottles the sake. I don’t know if you want to go through some of the specs or

John Puma: 19:56
Yeah. Yeah let’s talk a little bit about that there. All right, so the specs of the Chikurin Fukamari Junm ai. This is as Ryan mentioned from uh, Zo over in Ohkayama this is um, using Yamada Nishiki despite being in Okayama, they’re using Yamada Nishiki on the sake. It’s milled down to 60 percent of its original size. The sake meter value is plus two and the acidity is 1. 4. Oh, and then we’ve got yeast information for this too. How nice. Yeast number nine.

Ryan Mellinger: 20:26
and the Yamada Nishiki I mentioned is homegrown. They’re nicknamed a farmer’s brewery because the farmers who grow the rice are also the brewers who make the sake. So he grows all of his own Yamada Nishiki rice.

John Puma: 20:39
Excellent.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:40
Yeah. So this again is the Chikurin Fukamari. Junmai. And this word Fukumari, Ryan, what does that signify?

Ryan Mellinger: 20:50
So this depth or deepness or richness is all about the layers of the sake. So Marumoto San with this sake is playing with aging in a way. So more flavors are revealed. Over time with drinking, there’s a more roundness that you’ll pick up. So the method in which this is done is, every brewing year, he makes a fresh batch of the Fukumari recipe. And he then takes that fresh sake and blends it with last year’s sake and two years ago, sake that have been stored as nama and negative five degrees Celsius.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:31
Oh my God.

John Puma: 21:32
Okay.

Ryan Mellinger: 21:34
that’s what makes the consistent. batch of sake, and that’s actually how the Karuyaka Junmai Ginjo is made. Then he takes sake that’s been bottled from anywhere from three to eight years ago with that same process and blends it into the bottle before pasteurizing. So this bottle of Fukumari has anywhere from three to eight years aged sake in it, but actually, It’s like a solaris system in that you really can’t tell how long because there’s always a little bit being added into the next batch and he’s storing that for later. Very fascinating process. That’s I’d never heard of before. Completely, I believe, completely proprietary to him. Is adding this depth and layers to the sake.

John Puma: 22:19
I’ve definitely never heard of something like that before. Tim, what about you?

Timothy Sullivan: 22:23
No, that sounds so exciting. And it makes me want to get the sake in the glass right away. So I think we should do that.

John Puma: 22:32
We have the technology. let’s go ahead and put some of that in a glass. Remember typically on sake revolution, we use wine glasses here. You’ve got one at home. Don’t worry. Too much about finding the right vessel.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:52
All right. So when I look at this, Ryan, in the glass, it looks like there is a some hint of yellow color to this sake and that would be totally in line with the fact that this is a blend of several years, up to eight years.

Ryan Mellinger: 23:07
Yes yeah, that typically is indicative of a little bit of added storage time or also a low filtration. So yes, it’s certainly not a water white, just a little bit of like a straw tint.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:24
Let’s give it a smell.

John Puma: 23:27
And there, you can definitely tell this is something that has some age on it.

Ryan Mellinger: 23:32
Yeah, I get a lot of the tertiary sort of components, a little bit of there’s a lot of umami, a little bit of pickled almost there’s like a slight saltiness, very appealing, not over the top, still very pretty, and I think balanced really well in the glass. I’m also drinking mine just slightly chilled. It’s been almost room temperature right now,

John Puma: 23:52
yeah. I think mine is very similar.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:55
Yeah, for me, the aroma is a little bit like almost hints, some hints of mochi rice on the rice side, and then a little bit of hay or straw. There’s like a A note like that in there for me, but definitely umami as well.

John Puma: 24:11
Yeah, the umami is to me like the first thing I’m noticing and I’m like oh, this is going to be very umami laden.

Ryan Mellinger: 24:17
Should we taste?

Timothy Sullivan: 24:18
Yeah.

John Puma: 24:19
think the way I think we do.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:21
There, there are layers here. This is layered and deep. It’s aptly named. For

Ryan Mellinger: 24:29
We try.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:32
Yeah.

Ryan Mellinger: 24:34
some of the tasting notes that we, our team talked about. There’s a little bit of almost like a dried apricot, but also a little bit of fresh kind of a little stone fruit, but it’s not like a bright stone fruit. A little more richer. There’s a little bit of like woodsiness, like a little cedar kind of quality, like you can taste the koji making. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s very creamy and has nice acidity. The alcohol is only 15%, so it’s not super high. So it makes me want to keep drinking.

John Puma: 25:06
It is. So it’s weird for me personally your umami sake is, I don’t think of things being like excessively sippable because the umami it’s it’s very you think heavier, more challenging. At least I do. But I’ve sipped this six times since we started tasting and I’m like, I keep going back and go and have another little sip and then, oh, I’ll just have another little

Ryan Mellinger: 25:25
Isn’t it umami? Like all the things that make you want to keep eating them, like cheese and all those things that are just, it’s that deliciousness, that sort of scrump, like unctuous flavor profile that makes you just want to keep having more. I think this would be a really fun pairing with a lot of different things. I have some leftover roast chicken in my fridge I will have for dinner tonight with this and probably some pita bread and I think, and some tomato actually. I think that would be like really nice. But You can have fun with sake. That’s the best part. I know you guys know. I hope the people listening know you can pair with many different things, but this certainly lends itself to, I think, things that are cooked or roasted or pickled or, yeah.

John Puma: 26:10
Yeah. I think that when we had Monica Samuels on a very long time ago, another another importer she had a very great comment that was like, don’t be precious with your sake when it comes to pairing. Just have, eat whatever, whether, experiment, have fun, be, don’t overthink it. And I thought, I always thought that was a really interesting idea. It was like, cause we, I think a lot of people do get into that headspace of we need to present this with something very, very special. Blah, blah, blah,

Ryan Mellinger: 26:32
I think that’s one of the biggest challenges that our sake industry faces in order, if our goal is to increase sake sales and education around the United States, is that we need to get people to think outside of the traditional pairings and for drinking sake.

John Puma: 26:46
absolutely. I think that’s that’s the key, is the key to to sake’s growth is getting it out of the Japanese restaurant. Nothing against the Japanese restaurants. I love them, but but getting it into places that don’t, that aren’t like, Japanese cuisine or something like that. Just having it someplace that just has, like American food is such a, a game changer, I think. And it’s the thing that, that’s that everybody’s searching for.

Ryan Mellinger: 27:06
Yeah, absolutely. If you can get tequila and, wine from all parts of the world and any place on the corner, why not sake?

John Puma: 27:16
Yeah. That’s the world I wanna live in. Yes,

Timothy Sullivan: 27:25
Ryan, I wanted to ask you if you had any stories or any anecdotes from this producer, from Marumoto san or from the Chikurin brand?

Ryan Mellinger: 27:38
Yeah. Anyone who has had the pleasure to meet Muramoto san know that he is such a gem such a lovely, endearing brewer and person. He is really multifaceted. this is in Okayama, in a very countryside region, Asakuchi, and they’re at the base of these mountains, so it’s, there’s not a lot else but farmland and rice paddies around, but he spends his time, really, he thinks a lot about it. And yeah. Sake making and what it means in more of a philosophical sense. So I know he spends a lot of time meditating and cares a lot about energy and what he puts into the sake. But then on the other side, he is also a house music dj. He is got. Blue Russian cats around the house. He goes on motorcycle rides backpacking trips in the summer when he can, when he’s not brewing sake. He has got a lot of interest outside of sake, which I think really shows in the different types of sake he makes. So the Chikurin brand is a very serious, beautiful, all estate grown sake rice and using time in different ways. So we have also namazake from them, which has no storage or aging, and the karuyaka has a little bit. And then he also is the producer of hohoshu sparkling sake. So very fun, youthful, pink and blue, bright colored sparkling sake. And he is also the brewer that makes the Joto graffiti cup that we import. So a little bit of fine dining and casual. He likes to experiment

John Puma: 29:11
that’s cool. I’m still wrapping my head around the house music DJ bit,

Timothy Sullivan: 29:14
Well,

John Puma: 29:15
that’s awesome.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:15
John, I have to ask you, do you think that I have visited this brewery in the past?

John Puma: 29:20
I probably,

Timothy Sullivan: 29:23
I

John Puma: 29:24
statistically speaking, yes,

Timothy Sullivan: 29:26
I visited Marumoto Shuzo in 2008 in October. And so that goes way, way back. And I have two quick stories about Marumoto san. I agree. He is a gem of a person. And Regarding the DJ thing, he brought me into his living room. I was there by myself and he plopped me in the middle of the couch and he said, I want to play something for you. And he put on classical music and he wheeled in these big speakers. These are like six foot tall speakers on either side of me. And he wanted me to have this experience of hearing the music from these surround sound. And he also took the time to drive me around his Brewery area and he showed me every single rice field that he maintains and they’re all separate. Some of them are super tiny, but they are all his babies. And he wanted to show me each and every one where he’s growing rice, even though they’re not connected and they’re spread around the area. And it was such dedication to the rice growing side of it, which is not usual for brewers because they usually just buy the rice. So those are. Two of my impressions from my trip way back when, but I totally agree. He’s a gem. Nothing’s changed. And these sakes are amazing that he makes.

John Puma: 30:45
That’s that. That’s awesome.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:46
This has been just fantastic to have you on Ryan. It’s been so much fun to learn about the Joto portfolio, a little bit about your background and particularly about. This Chikurin brand and the Fukamari in particular. Thank you so much for joining us. Before we say goodbye, I wanted to ask if you’d like to share any ways that our listeners can connect with you or connect with Joto online. What’s the best way to learn more about what you do?

Ryan Mellinger: 31:17
Thank you both for all the work you do in educating and making this podcast, inviting me. I love to talk about sake, so anytime. For those who would like to learn more about what we do A great way is to visit our website, jotosake. com, j o t o s a k e, and also our Instagram at jotosake, which I also manage and try to populate with fun videos right from the breweries so you can see certain processes live in action. And yeah, we can’t wait to see you or visit you in your city nearby sometime. And thanks for tuning in.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:58
Thanks again, Ryan. Thanks so much for joining us and sharing this delicious sake with us. Such a pleasure to have you today. I also want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in and joining us. We really do hope that you’re enjoying our show. Now, if you’d like to show your support for Sake Revolution, the best way to support us is to visit our community on Patreon. We’re a listener supported show. And if you’d like to join us and support Sake Revolution, please visit Patreon.com/SakeRevolution to learn more.

John Puma: 32:29
Before we go, Tim, where can people find you on the internet?

Timothy Sullivan: 32:33
Oh thank you for asking. If you’re looking to learn more about my work, you can visit urban sake.com, the website or Urban Sake on Instagram. I’m also teaching classes at the Sake Studies Center, so sake studies center.com, or sake Studies Center on Instagram, and as always, Sake Revolution,

John Puma: 32:56
Yeah, I think that’s a given one.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:57
how about you, John

John Puma: 32:59
Social media stuff is going to be for me personally, John Puma, NYC and then over at the Sake Notes where my wife and I post our sake adventures occasionally, and we have a good time doing so. On that note. Please raise your glass. Remember to keep drinking sake and Kampai.