Episode 58 Show Notes

Episode 58. Onward with our exploration of all things “shubo” in the third entry in our sake yeast starter mini-series. This week John and Timothy explore the “yamahai” method of starting sake. In a language fond of contractions, the Japanese word “yama-hai” has to be one of the most sake friendly linguistic shortcuts you’ll find. Short for “yamaorshi” (pole ramming/mashing) and “haishi” (to stop/cease), Yama-hai indicates that this shubo method ceases the pole ramming/mashing that is done in the Kimoto method to get that fermentation kicked off. Yamahai and Kimoto are related insofar as they allow for the natural build up of lactic acid, but Yamahai does it without the arduous mashing of the rice, koji and water together. Is it a short cut to umami-town? Not quite, as the process still takes about four weeks, but you can put away the mashing poles and instead sip on some sake on while that lactic acid develops on it’s own. Let’s talk turkey and get the low down on Yamahai!

Skip to: 00:19 Hosts Welcome and Introduction
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

Skip to: 01:22 Sake Education Corner: Yamahai Shubo
“Yama-hai” is a contraction of the phrase Yamaoroshi Haishi. Yamaorshi (山卸) refers to the pole ramming/mixing done to breakdown the rice and koji in the Kimoto Method. And Haishi (廃止), refers to stopping or ceasing an activity. So “yama-hai” means to stop the Pole Ramming/Mashing. For both Kimoto and Yamahai Shubo styles, the lactic acid required for the mash develops naturally.

Yamahai is a naturally umami-rich style of sake. Instead of doing all that mashing/pole ramming, we just raise the temperature of the mash and let the lactic acid develop naturally.

Skip to: 16:36 Sake Introductions

Skip to: 19:03 Fuku Chitose Happy Owl Yamahai Junmai

Fuku Chitose Happy Owl Yamahai Junmai

Classification: Junmai, Yamahai
Prefecture: Fukui
Rice Type: Gohyakumangoku
Seimaibuai: 60%
Brewery: Tajima Brewery
Acidity: 1.6
SMV: +3.0
Sake Name English: Happy Owl

View on UrbanSake.com

Where to Buy?
Purchase on TippsySake.com: Fuku Chitose Happy Owl Yamahai Junmai
NOTE: Use Discount Code “REVOLUTION” for 10% off your first order with Tippsy Sake.

Skip to: 23:53 Tengumai Junmai Yamahai

Tengumai Yamahai Junmai

Brewery: Shata Shuzo
Classification: Junmai, Yamahai
Acidity: 1.9
Alcohol: 15.8%
Prefecture: Ishikawa
Seimaibuai: 60%
SMV: +4.0
Rice Type: Gohyakumangoku

View on UrbanSake.com


Where to Buy?
Purchase on TippsySake.com: Tengumai Yamahai Junmai
NOTE: Use Discount Code “REVOLUTION” for 10% off your first order with Tippsy Sake.

Skip to: 30:38 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

Episode 58 Transcript

John Puma: 0:22
Hello everybody. And welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast. And I’m your host, John Puma from the Sake Notes. Also the administrator over at the Internet Sake Discord as well as the R sake community over on Reddit. And, uh, most notably not the sake samurai around these parts.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:42
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I am a Sake Samurai. I’m a sake educator and I’m also the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week John and I will be tasting and chatting about all things, sake and doing our very best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 1:00
Excellent. Excellent, Tim, welcome back for another episode. Uh, we are in the midst, for those keeping score at home of our series on shubo.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:12
yes, the mother of sake

John Puma: 1:14
the mother of sake. Do you want to quickly give a little overview on what that was all about for those who might be late to the party?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:22
let’s get everyone caught up. So we’re doing a short series on shubo which is the fermentation starter also called the yeast starter. And this is the part of the sake production process where rice, water, koji, and yeast all come together for the first time. And it’s where fermentation really begins. And we’re talking about all the different ways that you can do this fermentation starter step so far, we’ve covered the sokujo method, the fast modern method, 90% of all sake made, uses that method. We’ve also talked about Kimoto, which is one of the more old school starter methods. And that allows for lactic acid to be built up naturally. And today we’re talking about a third method for making this fermentation starter and that is called Yamahai.

John Puma: 2:17
Ooh, I like the name. I’ve always, I’ve always been a fan of the name. Yamahai

Timothy Sullivan: 2:22
it’s a very cool name. Yes. Now, did you know that the name Yamahai is actually a contraction?

John Puma: 2:32
I did not.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:34
All right. So, you know, you’ve been studying Japanese, John, so you probably heard that they love contractions and kind of different ways of shortening words, right?

John Puma: 2:45
sure. Uh, konbini that’s so that’s the one that’s the one that comes to mind for me is that convenience store is way too many, too many syllables who has, who has, time

Timothy Sullivan: 2:55
who has time to say convenience? Well, you may have heard of todai that is, uh, uh, a place of higher education, Tokyo Daigakuthat means Tokyo university, Tokyo Daigaku. They shorten it to Todai. So if you say I went to “Todai” ,that means Tokyo University.

John Puma: 3:18
that is, uh, that is significantly more contracted than konbini. I think that’s a really good example.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:25
So there’s a lot of these contractions in Japanese language and Yamahai is actually a contraction as well. So it, if you. Look at what it really means. It means Yamahai Oroshi Hisashi Yamahai

John Puma: 3:45
okay. I can see why they would, why they would contract that.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:49
Yamahai Oroshi. Is the pole ramming process that. they do in the Kimoto method. So you may have seen photos if you’ve looked up sake making before with people standing over a small tub using these long wooden poles and kind of mashing the rice and water together with these long poles, it’s kind of a classic scene that you may see if you look up what sake brewing is all about that pole ramming mashing, rice and water together is called. yama oroshi and then haishi means to stop or to cease doing something Yamahai Oroshi. haishi,

John Puma: 4:31

Timothy Sullivan: 4:33

John Puma: 4:33
moment of something clicking by the way that laugh was, it was definitely, uh, was definitely putting two and two together.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:39
Yes. So Yamahai Oroshi Haishi means to stop the pole ramming or cease the pole ramming. So it’s the same as Kimoto without that mashing step with the pole. So they contracted Yamahai Oroshi Haishi simply to Yama-Hai. And that is where it comes from.

John Puma: 5:00
That was a long way to go for saying, you know what? Maybe we don’t need these poles.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:04
let’s just skip, let’s just skip the pole ramming. and

John Puma: 5:09
and and

Timothy Sullivan: 5:11
Yeah. It’s the same, it’s the same ingredients, but they don’t do that labor intensive mashing of the rice and water. And. That gets us Yamahai. Yamahai came about in the early 20th century, I think around 1909. So this isn’t some ancient method this is something that belongs to the 20th century. And this is really when they started to get information on microbiology, Western science and understand the microbes that drive. The shubo that drives the fermentation starter. They said, Hey, maybe we don’t need that mashing step. Let’s try out just the higher temperature and see what happens. And lo and behold, they arrived at Yamahai

John Puma: 6:02
Oh, man, there must’ve been there. I’m telling you there must’ve been a situation where somebody figured this out and somebody else who had, who had been sad about having to do all that hard manual labor just looked up and was like, seriously. I just, we, we didn’t need to be doing this,

Timothy Sullivan: 6:24
We have to make a meme of like sake brewery worker holding the pole being like, what

John Puma: 6:30
holding the pole menacingly.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:35
one question I get a lot at this point in the explanation is can you taste the difference between Kimoto and Yamahai the process is relatively similar. The timeframe is the same. The development of lactic acid over time is the same. The only difference between the two processes is that process of mashing the rice and water together with a pole and the other one just kind of skips that step.

John Puma: 7:02

Timothy Sullivan: 7:04
what do you think.

John Puma: 7:05
I don’t, I’ve never taken the Pepsi challenge between a Yamahai and a Kimoto. Um, but. I feel like in my head, Yamahai usually comes across a little bit more. has a little more depth of flavor to me. Sometimes it’s a little bit more, a little bit more rough around the edges, but that could also be. What modern brewers are doing with the Yamahai method. It might not have anything to do with the method itself. It might just be the way it’s being utilized and, and, you know, all these years later,

Timothy Sullivan: 7:44
right. Well, I’m in the camp that you really can’t tell the difference. I mean, any lay person, I think could not be able to tell the difference between Kimoto and Yamahai. I think if you had a Kimoto or Yamahai versus sokujo our modern method, I think there’s some pretty intense differences there that you could suss out, even just as someone who’s getting started with sake tasting, but between Kimoto and Yamahai themselves. I think it’s a little tough to tell the difference.

John Puma: 8:17
I don’t, I honestly don’t think I’d be able to do it.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:20

John Puma: 8:21
Maybe if I had like a, I think I would need to have like one brewery that had a Kimoto and a Yamahai and then try them both like fact back and then be like, all right. Can I, can I even tell the difference and that, that would be, um, maybe that would be the, the method, but, I doubted me able to do it.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:40
So when we did our. sokjo episode, the modern yeast starter method. We mentioned that a certain percentage of sake made uses that.

John Puma: 8:51
pretty, pretty big percentage, pretty big percentage. I want to say something like 90%,

Timothy Sullivan: 8:56
that’s right. So 90% of all sake made uses the fast yeast starter method. What about Yamahai? What do you think the number is for Yamahai? We’ve got. 10% to work with here. John, what do you think we’re dealing with?

John Puma: 9:14
Uh, so 10% left and we’ve got three. Starters remaining. Um, I want to say Yamahai is probably the second most popular, so I’m going to say 5%.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:35
well, you, you got half of it, right? It is the next, most popular, the next most widely used. And it is at 9%.

John Puma: 9:43
oh my goodness.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:46
So if we put Yamahai and SoCo together, That gives us 99% of all sake made. He uses either Yamahai or sokujo. Yup.

John Puma: 9:59
The rest of these are just a little niche types. 99. That’s

Timothy Sullivan: 10:04
yeah. And the amount of work that is required. Really ties directly into how much it’s used. So the sokujo, That’s the easiest one to do the shortest. So that’s 90% Yamahai is the next easiest of the four starter methods. And that gets us another 9%.

John Puma: 10:27
As compared to like sokujo, how long is this going to take? Cause you mentioned in our sokujo episode that sokujo was the fastest.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:34

John Puma: 10:36
So by a factor

Timothy Sullivan: 10:37
Yeah. Okay. So. We mentioned that the difference between Kimoto and Yamahai is this pole ramming step Yamahai Oroshi. And other than that, what we talked about within our Kimoto episode applies to Yamahai as well. So the entire process takes about four weeks. sokujo the fast starter, that was two weeks. So it takes double the amount of time. And what happens during that first two weeks is we get a natural development of lactic acid. So lactic acid bacteria develops falls into the mash and we get, uh, Higher concentration of lactic acid over time and slowly over the first two weeks that lactic acid is going to kill off any wild yeast or stray wild bacteria that fell into the mash. And it’s basically creating a higher acid clean, safe environment for the sake yeast to go into. But with Kimoto and Yamahai, it’s a two week pre preparation process where you allow this lactic acid to build up naturally after two weeks, then you add the yeast and then you get two weeks of fermentation for our fermentation starter, with our so-called Joe fast method. You skip those first two weeks. Put in lactic acid, high concentration manually, and then you’re off to the races. So it’s a shortcut that the fast, modern method that we use for 90% of all sake, That’s, a shortcut, but Yamahai is going to give us a little bit more depth of flavor, which I’m sure you’ve experienced. Right. John, that kind of funky,

John Puma: 12:31
that’s typically what I think of when I think of Yamahai is his depth of flavor, a lot of breweries that do, Yamahai also like to do, likes to do things a little more, a little more wild. Like I want to say that. Um, you know, Tamagawa is a very popular sake maker that does some Yamahai is, and there’s tend to use ambient yeast also, which is another, another step in that, in that you’re getting such depth of flavor and weirdness out of it.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:59
Yeah. So it’s not that easy. The reason those flavors get in there is because there you have that two week period where the wild yeast and the lactic acid are kind of duking it out. It’s like mortal Kombat for going on in there, know? And.

John Puma: 13:16
Now I know that we’ve discussed this, uh, last week on the Kimoto, but I want to kind of delve into it again. Does this also present challenges as far as consistency goes?

Timothy Sullivan: 13:28
Hmm. I think it’s a little bit more up to chance because what falls into that tank and what microbes you’re dealing with are a little little bit of a roll of the dice. But once that lactic acid builds up to a certain point, that’s going to kill off everything and create that clean slate that you’re after. But leading up to that, you get some funky characters in there and you can get some funky flavors out of that.

John Puma: 13:57
so it might be a little bit more subject to, to craft at that point, if you’re like going for something specific also, and also getting that, getting that consistency time after time, I imagine it’s like a lot more, a lot more work on behalf of the brewer to make sure that they’re nailing it every step of the way and getting this to be exactly where they want it.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:17
Yes, hence only 9%.

John Puma: 14:22
But I, you know, it’s

Timothy Sullivan: 14:23
Yeah. I mean, they do, they do have control once fermentation begins of the temperature, the type of yeast they want to use the fermentation period, uh, how often they stir the tank. There’s, there’s a lot of variables that they can take control of once fermentation begins. But that initial period, when you’re building up the lactic acid, it is a wild and crazy time. When you know, you’re relying on the microbes to do their thing.

John Puma: 14:52
Hmm. Well much like every other time we have made sure that we brought some examples.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:59

John Puma: 15:00
We’ve got some yamahais, that we brought to taste today. We found some of the 9% of there that uses the Yamahai method a little bit easier this week than last week. But we did Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:14
Yeah. So why don’t, why don’t we introduce our sakes. John, do you want to go first and tell us what Yamahai sake you brought to taste with us

John Puma: 15:22
would be happy to talk about my Yamahai sake. thank you. So, this week I have the Fuku Chitose Yamahai Junmai Ginjo. Um, now I’ve seen this referred to as “old virtue,” but on the label it also says happy owl. Um, I’m going to go with happy owl. Uh, there is an owl actually as part of the label. It’s very, very cute and it’ll be in the show notes. and he, to me, I think he looks happy. So I’m going to a happy owl. the name of the brewery is a Tajima. Tajima brewery in, uh, Fuqua. Which, uh, Fukui, we can get some traction on the show. A couple of weeks you had sake from Fukui and, uh, and now I do,

Timothy Sullivan: 16:08

John Puma: 16:09
uh, the rice is a koshi no shizuku, which is a local, Fukui, rice. It’s polished down to 55%. The ABV is 15 to 16 and the sake meter value is 1.7. So not dealing with a lot of extremes here. and a nice at 55%, I’m very interested in tasting this and seeing how that interacts with the Yamahai style, which is in my mind, at least a little bit more known for depth than being a little bit rough and tumble.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:42

John Puma: 16:43
Um, oh, I should also note that this is single pasteurization,

Timothy Sullivan: 16:47

John Puma: 16:48
but I do not know which I do not know if it is a namazume or namachozo. Unfortunately.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:55
Okay, well, one of those kind of 50% chance to get it right.

John Puma: 17:01

Timothy Sullivan: 17:02
All right. Well, I brought a very interesting and very well-known. Yamahai called a tengumai Junmai Yamahai. This is a Tengumai brand, and they’re known as dancing goblin in English, which I think is great.

John Puma: 17:20
I love that name.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:21
I do too. This is from the Shata Shuzo or shata sake brewery out of Ishikawa prefecture.

John Puma: 17:28
Hmm. There went back to Asia Cola.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:30
Yep. A great place for sake. We featured another one of the Shata Shuzo sake is a few episodes back, but this is their world famous junmai Yamahai.. Okay. The rice milling here is 60% and they’re using gohyakumongoku, sake rice. Our SMV is plus four and the alcohol percentage is between 15 and 16%. And our acidity is a little bit on the high side at 1.9. And this sake I happen to know is aged between one and two years.

John Puma: 18:09

Timothy Sullivan: 18:10
Yes. So they have a. Much longer than normal aging process on this sake. And of course it uses that Yamahai methods. So super interested to taste this and share with you all the funkiness that’s coming with the sake.

John Puma: 18:27
Yeah. I think that with the aging and the Yamahai, And the fact that it’s Tengumai, going to get some, some interesting, uh, some funky action. in my case, the, uh, Tajima brewery is a Yamahai exclusive, as far as I can tell a brewery, they specialize in that technique and I’ve tried to kind of refine it and, improve it as the, as they’ve gone on. They’ve been around since 1849, Tim. that is an old brewery.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:56

John Puma: 18:58
Yeah. So, um, who shall a taste first?

Timothy Sullivan: 19:03
Do you want to go first?

John Puma: 19:04
Sure. Okay. Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:12
Oh, by the way, my brewery was founded in 1823.

John Puma: 19:16
Ooh, that’s close. That is very close. They might’ve been contemporary as people who started these breweries.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:28
Okay. For those of you listening at home, you do have to check the show notes because this label’s probably the cutest owl I’ve ever seen in all of sake-dom.

John Puma: 19:37
Hmm. It’s up there. Uh, I have a couple of other contenders. That will, maybe we’ll do an episode on that at some point, uh, w w at which point, the happy owl will make a return appearance. So I have now I’ve poured the happy owl, the, um, Fuku chitose

Timothy Sullivan: 19:59
We got to talk about color, right?

John Puma: 20:02
It is transparent. It’s clear, but it is yellowed. It hay tone in tone a little bit.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:08
Yeah. Like almost straw color. Right?

John Puma: 20:11
Yeah. close.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:13
light, yellow.

John Puma: 20:17
Which is interesting because again, this is, you know, pasteurized once in bottle. So it is, um, this is not age like yours was so that was interesting. And there’s not a huge amount on the nose, maybe a little bit of, um, faint banana, maybe some. But if the alcohol, but not a lot, it’s not, it’s not showcased on the nose here. Uh, and when I tasted it, It, that is, it is a little bit funky. This is, this is very, very different. not terribly dissimilar from our experiences with Kimoto, but a lot Wilder. And then, then our experiences with, sokujo, which were kind of, if you recall correctly, I think we both had pretty dry sakes. I had a very dry sake, um, But it was a very clean, dry PR. I don’t want to say predictable, but you kind of knew what to expect when you’re drinking it. Uh, this this is a lot more, a lot more going on a lot more funkiness, a lot more unusual tastes here.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:28
Yeah. I sometimes describe it as, sokujo having a little more elegance and Kimoto, and Yamahai having a little more funk. Okay.

John Puma: 21:38
I like that. Having a little more funk. Yeah. There’s definitely a little bit more funkier and enter a funk is a quality. It’s not a dig. Um,

Timothy Sullivan: 21:45
No, no, no.

John Puma: 21:47
I’ve, I’ve actually called us. Okay. Kind of. I T I said I was tasting like funky, but like I was saying it in like a really positive way and somebody thought I was like, insulting the sake. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Funky is a plus. It’s a good thing. I think that maybe they thought when I said funky, they were thinking that maybe I figured it was a off in some way or, or spoiled. And when really I was going for more of a George Clinton kind of funk and just has that going on, a bit. Faintly fruity, which is unusual for a Yamahai for me, but caramel. Yeah. Which is not unusual. Um, and like, almost like a I’m putting my finger on it, like, oh, like a toffee almost. Hmm it’s it’s there’s a lot going on here, but again, that’s that’s that’s Yamahai that’s Kimoto this is. the sake is not straightforward. It’s a little bit

Timothy Sullivan: 22:44
yes. Depth of flavor or the key words, I think really layered, layered, deep.

John Puma: 22:53
very much so. So what does the dancing goblin have in store for us today, Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 22:59
Well, I want you to look at this color. Yeah.

John Puma: 23:04

Timothy Sullivan: 23:04
Very similar

John Puma: 23:06
similar. In fact, yours almost seems a little lighter in tone.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:10
Hmm. Well, this is a. I would say, this is again, a yellow or a straw straw color. Definitely not. crystal clear as far as the color goes. And I’m going to get this in the glass and give it a smell here. Okay. Now this is what I would consider to be a textbook example of Yamahai. It has almost meaty aroma.

John Puma: 23:40
That status sounds so Yamahai to

Timothy Sullivan: 23:43
Yes. So there’s, there’s umami here, but it’s meaty and mushroom me and smells a little bit like soy sauce and miso and. Caramelized the aging that they do on this sake at room temperature adds to that as well. But the Yamahai yeast starter method also brings in this funky earthiness and one aroma profile that I think comes forward when I smell this. And more than any other is kind of a mushroom-y. Smell

John Puma: 24:21

Timothy Sullivan: 24:22
shitake mushrooms.

John Puma: 24:24
I think I know exactly what you

Timothy Sullivan: 24:26
Yeah. And some people might be listening to us thinking like, I, don’t want to drink this tuck. It shitake mushroom funky. What? And it is funky. It’s unusual, but in my book paired with the right food, it’ll knock your sakes off. Like it is so good. Paired with a steak or red meat or short ribs. Just delicious. It’s so rich and umami driven. It has tricks up its sleeve that wine can only dream of with the amino acid profile and the umami profile. So good.

John Puma: 25:05
I think that’s like always like the, the rule of thumb almost with. with Kimoto in Yamahai it’s like, this is the secret weapon that sake has that allows it to pair with, uh, with Western dishes in a way that, that, well, I don’t think there’s a whole lot of sokujo. I can, I can, uh, you can’t have, I love my, my wonderful fruity. Uh Junmai ginjos, but I can never think about like, oh, I’m going to have this with a steak, but. But what you’re drinking, especially that tengumai that is you can have that with a filet and

Timothy Sullivan: 25:44

John Puma: 25:44
lah-di-dah, it’s wonderful.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:45
yeah. we can’t end the episode without talking about warm sake as well. this sake a Tengumai Yamahai served warm is a revelation. I’m drinking it chilled right now. But when you serve the sake warm. The savoriness comes out on the palate and it is just delectable. So good. The umami gets cranked up to 11 and you really get a savory, rich velvety texture when you warm it up. Whenever I hear people talk about how hot sake is bad sake and all that baloney. You know, I just want to sit them down and give them a glass of Tengumai Yamahai served warm and it is so velvety, rich and savory it’s delicious it’s really worth looking into if you haven’t tried a Yamahai yet.

John Puma: 26:42
and especially if you’re a westerner, who is looking to pair sake with Western dishes? Yamahai is. Uh, is, is the black belt, like it’s going to do a great job with this. Um, I was trying to introduce my family to sake once very, very long time ago. And, um, so we got a bottle of Yamahai and brought that to go with Thanksgiving. And it was a moderate hit. My parents are Italian. They’re nothing. They wanted to stick with the red wine, but, uh, it worked, it did work. Um, I got them to admit that they enjoyed it. Uh, and I don’t think they were being polite because again, Italian parents, they were not being polite. So,

Timothy Sullivan: 27:26
But Thanksgiving is, is I’m so glad you brought that up because that is a perfect American meal for Yamahai like, you nailed it on the head. Turkey ha Turkey is some people don’t like Turkey because it does have, you know, unique flavor to it. And

John Puma: 27:42
It’s very dry.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:43
Turkey. I’m a big, I’m a Turkey, so I love it.

John Puma: 27:47
Okay. All right. It’s not that I’m not, I don’t, I don’t hold it against you that you liked Turkey. It’s just usually not for me. Although I think you have to have the Turkey prepared really well. You can’t just have somebody who’s never made her year before. Go and try and make a Turkey. It’s going to be a disaster.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:01
right. Yeah. But Turkey, the flavors of Thanksgiving and Yamahai chef’s kiss. That’s what I’m doing right now. Chef’s kiss so good. The best.

John Puma: 28:12
wonderful. Is that, is that are going to be a new thing. We’re going to say, what am I doing right now? It’s just the kiss.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:16
I’m doing chef’s kiss. right now.

John Puma: 28:18
I don’t know. The time will do like, you’re it right now. Salt bay. I don’t know when that’s going to come up on the show, but whatever, anyway, I think that, that we have, uh, it’s definitely, uh, our duty to mention how, how, Yamahai is the, the is the secret component to pairing sake with, with Western cuisine. I feel it’s just, so it goes so well with so many things that we already enjoy. That’s already part of the. Uh, you know, part of the, the Western palate. and like you said, Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving is like the, the microcosm of the, of the Western dinner experience. Right. It’s got a little bit of almost everything and the Yamahai goes with all of it.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:59
yeah, yeah. You know, I think one thing that makes me sad when people disparage sake is that people think sake is only one thing. Like, oh, I had sake once in college. I hated it. And one thing I hope we’re achieving with this shubo mini series is that telling people sake is not just one thing. By tweaking certain steps of the production process. You can get totally different outcomes of the sake and they can be so delicious in completely different ways. So sake really is much more of a Swiss army knife than people believe that you can like get all these different flavors and profiles by changing the production process. And it’s a little complicated to learn about sometimes, but yeah. It’s really delicious to explore it. and try all the different styles.

John Puma: 29:52
Yeah. Um, yeah. And guys, this may seem a little daunting, uh, getting into the weeds on this, but it’s a necessary step and. To learn this. It’s going to open up a whole new world of sake, of like parts of, uh, of sake that you never knew were there.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:08
Yeah. so far so good, John, we’ve gotten sokujo, under our belt, we got Kimoto taken care of and we just did Yamahai we’ve got one more, very, very special and very rare kind of fermentation starter coming. And I think we might have to call in some backup for

John Puma: 30:29
Yeah. So we might need a subject matter expert

Timothy Sullivan: 30:31

John Puma: 30:32
because, uh, it’ll take you out. All right. All right. So yeah, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll work on that or work on that.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:38
All right. Well, John, thanks so much. I had so much fun talking Yamahai with you

John Puma: 30:45
talking Yamahai I think we might have an episode title. Uh,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:51
And I also want to thank our listeners for tuning in hope you enjoyed our little walk down Yamahai lane. and we really do hope that you’re enjoying our show.

John Puma: 31:02
Yamahai lane. All right.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:04
it’s around the corner from Kimoto street. If you’d like to show your support for Sake Revolution, one way you can really help us out would be to take a couple of minutes and leave us a written review on apple podcasts. It’s a great way for us to get the word out about our show.

John Puma: 31:21
And after you’re done leaving that review, please go and tell your friends and your family, you know, at Thanksgiving dinner, you bring them Yamahai and tell them about our show and then also subscribe and please encourage your friends and family to subscribe this way. Every week, when we put out a new episode, it will show up on your device of choice and you will not miss a single one of our shows.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:42
and as always, if you’d like to learn more about Yamahai or any of the sakes we talked about in today’s episode, be sure to visit our website, SakeRevolution.com, And you can check out all the detailed show notes.

John Puma: 31:56
And if you have a sake question burning sake question that you need answered. We want to hear from you. Please reach out to us. The email address as always is [email protected]. So until next time, please remember keep drinking sake and Kanpai!