Episode 103 Show Notes

Episode 103. If you look up “extreme sake” in the dictionary and you may well find a picture of this bottle in there. We are upping the ante on our quest for extreme sakes this week by introducing a brew with a lot of character… and a lot of fans: Tamagawa Heirloom Yamahai Junmai Genshu from Kinoshita Shuzo out of Kyoto. The brainchild of UK-born Master Sake Brewer Phillip Harper, this sake is extreme in its deft use of ambient yeast to create a uniquely wild fermentation starter. Paired with very high alcohol levels and a high acidity to match, this sake pushes the envelope on multiple fronts. You’d think a sake like this might be a bit of a bull in a china shop, but the Tamagawa brewers have created an elegant, deeply flavored and eminently drinkable extreme sake. It’s not to be missed! #SakeRevolution

Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

Skip to: 01:45 Extreme Sake: Wild Yeast

Skip to: 04:03 Kinoshita Shuzo – Tamagawa

Kinoshita Shuzo makers of Tamagawa
From Tamagawa’s website:
“Our brewery was founded in Kumihama township in the Kyotango region of Kyoto Prefecture in 1842, where we have made sake ever since. Our brand name, Tamagawa, can be translated as “Jewel River”, and is thought to derive from the Kawakamidani River which flows by the brewery. The character 川 (kawa or gawa in compound words) is an ideogram showing the flow of a river, which is what it means.Tama (玉) means an orb or a jewel, and by extension expresses the idea of precious beauty.It is thought that the name reflects the reverence in which our ancestors held rivers and water in the Shinto tradition.”

Web: https://www.sake-tamagawa.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tamagawa_official/

Walls inside Tamagawa
Earthen Walls inside Tamagawa

Virtual Tour of Kinoshita Brewery:

Skip to: 12:32 Sake Tasting : Tamagawa Heirloom Yamahai Junmai Genshu

Tamagawa Heirloom Yamahai Junmai Genshu

Alcohol: 20.0%
Classification: Genshu, Junmai, Yamahai
Prefecture: Kyoto
Rice Type: Kitanishiki
Seimaibuai: 66%
Brewery: Kinoshita Shuzo
SMV: +3.5
Importer: World Sake Imports
Acidity: 2.6
Brand: Tamagawa (玉川)
Yeast: Ambient

Skip to: 32:04 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

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Episode 103 Transcript

John Puma: 0:22
Hello everybody. And welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s very first sake podcast and I am one of your Intrepid hosts, John Puma from the sake notes. Also the administrator over at the internet sake discord do come down And join us for a drink some time. And my pronouns are he/him.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:44
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I am a Sake Samurai, sake educator, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website and every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 1:01
Ah, Tim fun ease and things that are extreme. That’s that’s what we’re about this week. I it’s, I think it’s, it’s been a little while since we’ve, we’ve gone down the rabbit hole of extreme sake, right.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:16
I think. Of the sakes we have featured in our extreme series. They’ve been some really well-received episodes and very fun sakes to taste some you think?

John Puma: 1:27
They have certainly been extreme.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:29
Yes. And

John Puma: 1:31
yeah, if we look back, we’ve got, we did extreme, um, rice milling, we’ve done, uh, extreme sake meter value. What else? What’s new.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:45
This week, we’re going to be looking at extreme yeast.

John Puma: 1:50
Um, a quick question. How exactly does yeast become extreme?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:57
We’ve done a few episodes that focus on yeast. We’ve done our flower yeast episode, and we did an episode on yeast in general.

John Puma: 2:04
Um, so flower use that’s a little extreme.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:07
That’s a little extreme, but we’re going to go even more extreme. We are not joking around

John Puma: 2:13
Oh, so more extreme than flower,

Timothy Sullivan: 2:17
How about wild yeast?

John Puma: 2:19
wild yeast.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:21

John Puma: 2:22
um, so what, like just kinda like whatever’s in the air kind of thing

Timothy Sullivan: 2:27
Yep. Spontaneous fermentation.

John Puma: 2:29
oh my goodness. That flies in the face of everything I’ve ever heard about sake making Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:36
It kind of does. You can consider that. Spontaneous fermentation or ambient yeast sake.

John Puma: 2:43

Timothy Sullivan: 2:45
when brewers began to be able to isolate yeast strains and pour in pure yeast into their batches. This basically enabled the modern fermentation starters, like the sokujo method we talked about. You have to add a pure strain of yeast, so. The hopes that just the right yeast is just floating around in the air and can fall in and propagate properly is not something that works with the modern ways of setting up a yeast starter. So going back to this ambient yeast style is definitely very extreme. And there’s only a couple breweries that kind of deal with this way of making sake. And today we’re going to be tasting one of them.

John Puma: 3:32
And I imagine that if you’re going to be doing a style like this and you’re going to be successful at it, your brewery has to be kind of an absolute legend in this, in this circle of this field. Um, so cutting, cutting straight to the chase. What is, what is our sake?

Timothy Sullivan: 3:53
We’re going to be tasting a sake from a brand known as Tamagawa. Which is kind of a legend in and of itself sake industry, you know, Tamagawa well,

John Puma: 4:02
very much so.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:03
yeah, a little bit about the brewery. So the brewery is called Kinoshita Shuzo and it’s owned by the Kinoshita family. It was founded in 1842 and it is in Northern Kyoto. When you say Kyoto, a lot of people think. Beautiful shrine laden, Kyoto City. But this is far in the countryside of the Kyoto prefecture

John Puma: 4:27
Oh, so it’s, so it’s not like it’s not in downtown Kyoto, like around the corner from one of the shrines and then there’s a sake brewery.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:33
no. And I know this because I went to this brewery, uh, once, uh, years ago. And it is a long trip from Kyoto.

John Puma: 4:44
how do you, um, how do you get to Northern. Kyoto from, I imagine you started in downtown Kyoto

Timothy: 4:52
yeah, you can get there on the train, but the last leg of the trip is one of those really small countryside trains, and it is not easy to get to, but it’s a beautiful part of Japan. When I think back to my trip, there’s one thing that really sticks out and that is the age of the brewery building. So this was a really old building the walls were made out of sod you could see some straw, some hay in there and some sod that was like a clay type texture to it and very rustic. But this environment allows the yeast to cling to the walls and create. Uh, an environment where they’re going to be readily available when the yeast starter goes in there. So they’re creating. A successful environment for the type of fermentation they want to do, is very counterintuitive to the modern way.

John Puma: 5:51
Yeah, it’s so interesting. Like you, I guess you couldn’t just like start up a new brewery. and be like, I want to do this pre-modern style because you don’t have that buildup. You don’t have the yeast, you know, there’s history involved with making this. I mean, you’d have to like go to somebody’s somebody’s ambient yeast, starter room and steal a piece of the wall and bring it back and try to cultivate it

Timothy Sullivan: 6:13
that’s such an amazing point. When you do do the ambient wild yeast, you’re getting the sense of place you’re getting the history

John Puma: 6:22
That’s terroir of a room specific for,

Timothy Sullivan: 6:29
This is called low intervention sake, meaning that we are going to let the microorganisms as much as possible, do their own thing on their own timetable.

Timothy: 6:41
And this is very much different from the ways that have evolved for more structured and more modern styles of brewing. So it is really, really fascinating and it is. I would imagine like riding a bucking Bronco, you don’t have as much control over outcome of the fermentation, right?

John Puma: 7:00
Yeah. I mean, you know, it sounds a little bit like natural wines, almost just kind of letting it, you know, letting, letting essentially like letting Jesus take the wheel and, uh, and letting you know, just letting it go that’s, you know, I guess if you have the right setup and you know where to make the adjustments to keep it on course, I think what I’m saying is I feel like even though it’s low intervention, you need a very skilled hand.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:30
Oh, my God. You sure do. And this is the perfect time to mention the Toji Philip Harper. Speaking of skilled

John Puma: 7:38
I’d knock them up. You slap them down to,

Timothy Sullivan: 7:42
So have you ever met Philip Harper?

John Puma: 7:44
have never had the pleasure of meeting a Philip Harper? I have read several of his books though. Uh, yeah. Um, before I knew he was a sake maker, I knew he was a sake author and somebody who knew I was getting into sake, bought me one of his books as a gift. He was like, Oh, you’re going to learn about sake with us. And. And I did, and it was very nice. I kept note of Phillip Harper. It’s interesting. And then I kept hearing his name over and over again. Uh, and, and I hear that he was the first foreigner to ever become a Toji at a Japanese brewery that the toji, the head brewer and that by itself is, Ooh, that’s an, that’s a very impressive piece of resume, right? That yes, That’s extreme. That is. Yeah. And to do that. And then he also, you know, eshews, modern styles in favor of this very. Uh, ultra old school, um, way of making sake is even more interesting.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:42
Absolutely. He is an amazing person and He’s an amazing toji and he’s over the years, I think he’s worked at three different breweries and he’s currently at the Kinoshita Shuzo making Tamagawa and their brand they explained it on their website in a few different ways. And I think it’s really illustrative of his view on sake making. They say a few things about their brand. One is that they view their brand as kind of a chameleon, something

John Puma: 9:11
Uh, chameleon.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:12
so it can change color and it can change flavor with the temperature. So as you warm up or chill, the sake, you have tremendous variation. And as you age the sake over time, you can get darker and darker colors. So I thought that was an interesting way of introducing their brand, that their sake can be a chameleon, but they also on their website described their sake as indestructable.

John Puma: 9:43
And that is a term that we’ve used on the show to describe sake of Tamagawa’s style, before, uh, not always, not always Tamagawa itself, but definitely, uh, breweries that, that, that produce sake that has a similar in a similar vein to, to what Mr. Harper is doing. And. Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan: 10:09
Yes. And I know that they are huge proponents of aging and they highly recommend buying their sake and making a note of the year and letting it sit and aging at home and being indestructable sake is really part of that. We wouldn’t recommend that with most sakes, but their style, their brand really lends itself to this at home aging. And real discovery of the changes that can happen over time. So it’s a fascinating approach to sake making.

John Puma: 10:44
Um, Yeah, you’ve mentioned the aging, being a being, I think that they are a big fan of, during the height of lockdown, When online sake brewery tours were becoming very popular. I got to attend a tour of a Kinoshita that was hosted by Mr. Harper. And. One, that thing that really blew me away during this whole, the whole experience was they do have refrigerators on site, uh, for aging, the sake, but he uses the to keep the sake from getting too cool during the winter. So it’s really like the opposite of everything that you know about, or you think, you know about aging, sake, keeping sake, treating sake, everything, you just throw that book out the window and boom. Tamagawa.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:37
absolutely. So they’re fans of funky flavor. They’re fans of unusual production methods, they’re fans of low intervention sake I just think it’s such an interesting brewery.

John Puma: 11:53
Yeah, for sure.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:54
Yeah. So allowing the wild yeast, that’s in the air to gently fall into your tank and reproduce, you have to have a good faith that you’ve have the flora and fauna you want in your space.

John Puma: 12:09
Hmm. It’s fascinating. It’s really an interesting and unique way to make sake. All right. All right. Well, we’ve talked enough. I think about this ambient wild yeast. The extreme yeast tim. I think it’s time to, to sip on some of this extreme sake made with his extreme yeast.

Timothy: 12:32
All right. Well, let’s take a look at which Tamagawa, we’ve picked up and if it’s all right with you, let’s get the stats for this. this is the Tamagawa heirloom Yamahai Junmai Genshu.

John Puma: 12:45
Tim, as you mentioned earlier, this is from, uh, Kinoshita Shuzo this is if they were established in 1842, the rice here is a Kitanishiki, the alcohol percentage, Tim, is this legal 21%.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:03

John Puma: 13:04
the maximum, right? This is the highest it can possibly be.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:07
The, the bottle says 19 to 20%, the website says 21%. So I think that it’s variable. Which is in line with having a spontaneous fermentation. There’s probably going to be a little bit more variation in there. Uh, but 21.9% is the legal, upper limit has to be by law below 22%.

John Puma: 13:29
Hmm. All right.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:31
So we’re ex we’re already extreme John w we haven’t even gotten to the yeast yet, and

John Puma: 13:35

Timothy Sullivan: 13:35
extreme already extreme.

John Puma: 13:36
so that, Kitanishiki, uh, is, polished down to 66% of its original size. The sake meter value. The old meter of dry to sweet is plus 3.5. And the acidity, with ambient yeast comes wild acidity 2.9.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:57
Yeah. I mean, we’ve, seen some high acidities before, so 2.9 is definitely on the high side. And I think our ambient yeast is, as you mentioned, going to contribute to that for sure.

John Puma: 14:08
Oh, yeah, definitely. as they are, as you mentioned, a low intervention, this is, uh, unpasteurized, um, undiluted obviously at 21% alcohol and. It is, unfiltered. Now when we say unfiltered, we don’t mean it’s that, that kind of unfiltered, it’s not charcoal filtered. It is a muroka right? Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:30
Right. So they call this the three “U” unfiltered, Undiluted, Unpasteurized

John Puma: 14:37
the three U?

Timothy Sullivan: 14:37

John Puma: 14:38
ooh, I like that. and this is the red label.

Timothy: 14:42
yes, this is called the red label and this is again their Heirloom Yamahai Junmai Genshu.

John Puma: 14:51
All right. Wow. This is really interesting. Okay. you’ve got your bottle handy.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:56
I do.

John Puma: 14:57
All right. Let’s open this extreme sake up and have a taste.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:02
Yep. And I’ll make one other note here. I mentioned that. They encourage people to age their sake at home. And this actually has a label that says brewing year of 2020.

John Puma: 15:15
Oh, nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:16
so this was brewed in 2020, and it was released in 2021. Okay, John, we’ve got this in the glass. So I noticed right away, there’s a honeyed color to this. It almost looks like a little bit of a hazy white wine. It has a golden honey color to it and It’s clear, but do you see a little haze in there as well? Like a

John Puma: 15:44
yes, Um, this is honestly a little bit more clear than I was expecting. I thought that’d be a little bit more yellowing. But, you know, there’s drift definitely is a touch of it. And there definitely is. Uh, they were definitely as a little bit of haze, but a little bit less than I was expecting.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:04
All right, so we’ve got the color dialed in. Let’s take a moment and give the aroma a little closer examination.

John Puma: 16:17
It’s funny when I think of Tamagawa, I think of this aroma to me, they have like, almost like a signature aroma, which is an unusual thing for sake. I I don’t think I can identify too many sake from the nose, but I feel like this one I almost could. And it’s, it’s nice. It’s always, it’s a really pleasant, it’s not, obviously not, not a John Puma wheelhouse sake, but there is something really nice about the nose on. Hm, there’s complexity. There’s a lot of depth.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:49
I’m glad we rolled you out of your wheelhouse, but how would you, how would you characterize this aroma that you tie so closely to the Tamagawa style?

John Puma: 16:58
One of the notes I have in here in my head. I always envision, um, high, very high cocoa, dark chocolate,

Timothy Sullivan: 17:08

John Puma: 17:09
like, like the really kind of almost. there’s a point when the chocolate is that dark when it crosses over and gets almost like a fruitiness to it.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:18
Yes, yes,

John Puma: 17:19
And that, that exactly, that is the thing that, um, that I think about when I, when I sniff this.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:27
That is a great point. I’ve been trying to eat more, really dark chocolate because it’s a little healthier than milk chocolate. And when you get really high quality, dark chocolate, you’re right. There’s there can be like this fruitiness in there really interesting. And that, that’s a really exciting note. I really agree with that.

John Puma: 17:49
Um, do you have anything else on there? That’s that’s that dominates for me?

Timothy Sullivan: 17:52
yeah, I th I pick up on something with a little bit of nuttiness to it, almost like an almond or, or a nutty kind of aroma to it.

John Puma: 18:01
um, Oh, good. I understand what you mean. That, that

Timothy Sullivan: 18:05
it is complex and it’s rich. And if someone said, oh, this is a Yamahai Junmai made with wild yeast, my expectation would be, this is going to be Funks-ville, like dirty socks and stuff like that. Not at all.

John Puma: 18:22

Timothy Sullivan: 18:24
Super funky being weird for weird sake. Do you know what I do? You know, the kind of sake I’m talking about this, I think that making this wild, ambient yeast style. Is very risky to do and to get it, to come out with this engaging deep complex, but delightful aroma is where the genius comes in. Like, this is so hard to steer the ship in this direction when you’re dealing with spontaneous fermentation. And the fact that they’ve do it year after year is like just amazing.

John Puma: 18:57
Um, yeah, there is a remarkable amount of consistency to their sake considering how many variables there are and making it, uh, and that’s, you know, so many variables that are purposefully out of their control. I want to say. And they do such a really good job with it. It’s so nice. Um, so shall we get a taste.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:15
Yeah. going to taste them.

John Puma: 19:18
Yeah, this is it’s. This is Tamagawa.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:23
yeah. So the first thing that really hits me is the acidity it’s bright bracing, and almost like, um, kind of shocks your palate. That acidity is right there to kind of wake you up. Hello, pay attention. And then. I get also dark chocolate, fruity dark chocolate on the palate and more towards the finish. This has a long lingering flavor and there’s, um, umami for sure. A little bit of toastiness, but done with a very gentle hand again, I think you could steam roll a sake like this and make it all about just being funky and. Dunking your head in, you know, umami, but they’re, they’re taking a really gentle hand with this powerful process. And again, that’s where the nuance and the, the craft really shows through the skill of the craftsmen comes through in this, this type of

John Puma: 20:29

Timothy Sullivan: 20:29

John Puma: 20:30
Yeah. Yeah. I think it would be really easy for a sake maker who was going for this dial to just be like, You know, let’s just go and really, really steam roll of the palate with, you know, with everything, with everything that’s going on here. Keep in mind, this is a 21% alcohol sake

Timothy Sullivan: 20:49
Oh yeah. can’t forget that

John Puma: 20:51
and it doesn’t necessarily taste like that. There is, you know, there’s enough, uh, complexity in the flavor here that it’s easy to forget that. I think. That. Cause I think that, um, a lot of other alcohols, when they got up to that percentage, you start to feel that burn a little bit more. You start to get that the ethanol notes and everything we talked about. We never said that, Hey said, boozy. I think there is a little bit of it on the finish, but it’s like, it’s married with the chocolate at that point. And you’re, you’re having the chocolate in your brain. Isn’t thinking about the booze,

Timothy Sullivan: 21:27
Yeah, I’ll disagree with you a tiny bit. I do feel the weight of the alcohol. I feel like it’s it, it’s extremely elegant and well done, but I feel the, the structure and body is there. And especially on the finish, do feel the the presence of the alcohol, but when you’re dealing with something that is on the upper extreme of what’s legally allowed, I think that it’s very well integrated, but it is there and it is, it is bold for sure.

John Puma: 22:01
Um, and that is the, you know, the, the thing we talk about on this show, so often it is like the, the secret to great sake is balance.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:10

John Puma: 22:10
And this is a high wire act. There’s so much going on here and it, it, it all comes together. really nicely No.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:19
The thing that I love about this sake is that now that I have it open, I can continue to age it at home.

John Puma: 22:27
With the brewers consent

Timothy Sullivan: 22:29
with the brewers, blessing and consent, we can continue to age this, watch it grow, have it be the chameleon, you know? Uh, and I can’t wait to try this again and experiment with temperature. I’m having it at just below room temperature. I’ve had the bottle out for half an hour or so, and it’s just below room temperature and it’s really. Expressive and nice. And it’ll be fun to serve this warm as well and see what happens. So another time I’m going to try this and warm it up, I’m sure it will bring out even more of that umami flavor.

John Puma: 23:08
I’ve actually had this one warmed up a little bit and is one of few sakes that I actually prefer warmed up. I do really enjoy a cold as well, There’s something really special that happens when you warm this one up the chameleon, as you pointed out earlier.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:23
Yes, the indestructable chameleon

John Puma: 23:24
Yes. The indestructible chameleon.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:27
I love that. So, John, what do you think that the ambient yeast portion brings to the table for this overall profile?

John Puma: 23:37
well, you know, I think that in order to accommodate the ambient yeast, we, you mentioned earlier, Acidity is going to be a factor. And that was the very first thing we sipped on it. That was the first thing you said was the acidity is so big and so bright. And so that’s going to be there by, by need and by design, I imagine as well, but this is just got so much depth and so much complexity to it. And it’s not something you typically get from your garden. Variety. Modern styles of sake, you know, where they’re going, for a specific, uh, a specific flavor profile or something like that. And, you know, meanwhile, this is just a journey and it’s an ever-changing journey. As it warms up a little bit, it comes to room temperature, and then beyond, you know, it’s, it’s just a fascinating sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:29
Yeah. I think the, use of wild ambient yeast is such a conscious decision for this brand. Like that’s not something you can do just by accident or just let’s try it. It’s like part of their DNA at this brewery. Right. And they don’t make all of their sake using the ambient yeast, but they have a line of these spontaneous fermentation that they do. And their use of the word heirloom, I think is really interesting because I think it speaks to. Being handed down from generation to generation, the microorganisms they have in their brewery that they have over time, slowly corralled into this flavor is just fascinating. You know, when we talk about yeast, one thing that yeast can really bring to the party when you’re making sake, of course they make the alcohol, but they also contribute quite a lot to the aroma. So those aromatics that we’re getting are part of the. Expression of Tamagawa local microbiome, the, the, the microorganisms they have in their, in their shubo room in the room where they do the fermentation starter, where they get this started. And it is hyperlocalized to them. I think that’s something that’s really fascinating that, you know, we can’t travel to Japan. We can’t travel on the local train to Northern Kyoto, but we can travel by tasting the sake. And the other thing I really love is that we can, we get permission from the brewer to age it, experiment with it change it. They literally want their sake to be a chameleon. So enjoying it in all different types of ways.

John Puma: 26:20
Yeah. It’s, it’s so fascinating to think of the, and I mentioned this earlier, how important the literal building is to the sake. If anything ever happened to that building Tamagawa would literally never taste the same again, it would be. Because, you know, it’s it’s, without that building, they don’t have it without that shubo room, the magic microbes in that room, you wouldn’t get this specific combination of flavors. phenomenal.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:48
Yeah. I think that the flavors will always be evolving and changing. You know, if you, if you rely on what they do with modern yeast is they isolate a strain. They identify the DNA and they keep it pure. Like a number seven is going to be a number seven, number seven. But with this, it is an evolving thing. And one of the. Interesting things about this low intervention approach is that you can’t pin it down. You can’t micromanage it, you can’t control the flavor. That exactly. And it will evolve over time. Um,

John Puma: 27:25
that’s a really good point. That’s like that even, even if they wanted to make the same thing over and over again. They, couldn’t

Timothy Sullivan: 27:33
Now Tamagawa has a lot of fans. Don’t they.

John Puma: 27:36
Oh yeah. don’t want to restate this too many times, but you know, very much, this is not my comfort zone sake, but this is a sake outside of my comfort zone that I absolutely enjoy drinking. And it’s, you know, I respect it and I love it. It transcends style to me. You know what I mean? It’s just so delicious.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:53
Yeah, I agree. is not a sake I would reach for if I was just going to be zoning out in front of HBO, max, and, you know, need something to sip on like the, our classic, uh, after work couch, relaxation, sake, but this is a sake to study and sip and enjoy and pay attention to when you’re drinking it. Deserves that now, would you want to eat with this?

John Puma: 28:22
uh, I think you can eat anything with this, whatever I like, you know, it would, it’s the chameleon. Now it’s going to go with whatever you’re going to, whatever you’re going to have with it. I would imagine this can stand up to anything, any kind of cuisine. What about you? Have you had any, um, adventures with.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:44
Well, I know this is really outside your wheel house as well, but I’ve had good experiences pairing this with cheese

John Puma: 28:52
well that’s unfortunate,

Timothy Sullivan: 28:55
fortunate for me, unfortunate for you

John Puma: 28:57
uh, what kind of cheese is cheese? A lot of things.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:59
Yeah, there’s many varieties of cheese. You could pretty much go any direction, but given the body and the structure and the weight you have with this sake, I think you could go for. I really like a creamy blue cheese with this. I love blue cheese and I think the saltiness and the creaminess of, of blue cheese goes really well with this. The other thing is that it’s not too dry. It has a higher alcohol percentage, but it’s not a bone dry sake. So you get that hint of fruitiness, that hint of dark chocolate, that hint of nuttiness. And again, it’s not being funky just to be funky. It’s not trying to hit you over the head with screaming umami, although that of course that’s in there, but the, the other food I really thought about with this would be like those autumnal warm stews.

John Puma: 29:48

Timothy Sullivan: 29:49
Like shiitake mushroom broth, stew, something in the fall and the autumn, uh, that would be really good.

John Puma: 29:59

Timothy Sullivan: 30:01
Okay, John. Well, this was a fascinating sake, fascinating brewery, fascinating Toji and I think we hit our bar for extreme.

John Puma: 30:11
I think so. I think that when you, when your yeast, uh, depends on the literal fauna in your walls, that’s extreme

Timothy Sullivan: 30:20

John Puma: 30:21
more extreme than flowers.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:23
that is extreme. Bad-ass extreme.

John Puma: 30:27
Yeah. Um,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:30
right. Well, I hope that our listeners will seek out the sake and have a chance to enjoy a little bit of extreme sake for themselves. And we have a few more surprises in our extreme series coming up in future episodes. So keep your ear to the ground and, uh, look out for those future extremes coming soon. John, so great to taste with you as always. Thanks for sharing this. Uh, oh, I forgot to ask you. Would this be considered crazy style?

John Puma: 31:03
Um, in my home, this is very much considered crazy style. In fact, uh, just, just a quick aside, um, we’ve talked about how, when we go to Japan, sometimes it makes sense to have like an anchor sake to. Uh, a popular brand that you like, that you can find a lot of places and kind of point that out as being a, a sake that you would like to be the baseline for your adventure that evening, Tamagawa is Myshell’s baseline sake. So when she goes to a place she’ll, you know, and they’re like, oh, what kind of sake do you like? She will say Tamagawa. And they’re like, oh, and that’s where things begin for her is that this is, you know, setting the stage for how the rest of her night’s going to go. And, uh, and then they look at me and I say something very fruity and they kind of go like really? Uh,

Timothy Sullivan: 31:54
Are you two married?

John Puma: 31:55
yeah, exactly.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:57
So when, when we look up crazy style in Myshell’s, little dictionary, there’s a picture of Tamagawa in there.

John Puma: 32:03
absolutely certain that

Timothy Sullivan: 32:04
Okay. All right. Awesome. Well, John, so great to taste with you. Thanks again. And I want to thank our listeners as well for tuning in. We really do hope you’re enjoying our XStream show. Now, if you would like to show your support for Sake Revolution, the best way to support us now is to join our community on Patreon we’re listener, supported show, and all the support we receive from our patrons helps us to host, edit and produce a podcast for you each and every week.

John Puma: 32:32
And if you would like to learn more about our Patreon and become a Patron yourself, you can visit patreon.com/SakeRevolution to find out more. You can also support us by leaving a review on apple podcasts or your podcast platform of choice.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:51
And as always, if you would like to learn more about any of the topics or the individual sakes that we talked about in this or any of our episodes, be sure to visit our website, SakeRevolution.com for the show notes and for a written transcript of each and every Episode.

John Puma: 33:07
And if you would like to reach out to us directly, or if you have a sake question that you need answered burning sake questions that you need answered, um, we would love to hear from you. Um, we have an email address set up for just that occasion it’s [email protected]. You can also, if an email is not your thing, You can DM us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter on Instagram. We are @SakeRevolutionPod, and everywhere else. We are a @SakeRevolution Google it you’ll find us. Uh, so until next time, please grab a glass. Remember to keep a drinking sake and Kanpai.