Episode 60 Show Notes

Episode 60. This week, John and Timothy welcome the talented writer, culinary expert and podcast host Akiko Katayama to the show. Akiko is a fixture of the Japanese food and beverage scene and is the well known host of the Japan Eats podcast on the Heritage Radio network. On her show, she explores all things Japanese food and beverage and often introduces sake to her legions of listeners. She is a fan of sake herself and recommended we try a fun one today – Kenbishi Kuromatsu Honjozo – umami driven and delicious and best of all, we tasted it both warm and chilled to explore the versatility of this brew. And these flavors led Akiko to teach us a new taste descriptor: “kokumi”. What’s Kokumi? Well, to learn more, listen in and join us as we chat with the charming Akiko about sake and food and have a whole lot of fun!


Skip to: 00:19 Hosts Welcome and Introduction
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy


Skip to: 01:40 Guest Introduction: Akiko Katayama

Author and Host of Japan Eats Akiko Katayama
Akiko Katayama is a food writer and Forbes.com columnist based in New York City, and the host and producer of “JAPAN EATS!” , a weekly radio show and podcast on Heritage Radio Network, which introduces Japanese food culture to a global audience. http://heritageradionetwork.org/series/japan-eats/. She is a board member of Heritage Radio Network as the Host Representative. She is also a director of the non-profit organization The New York Japanese Culinary Academy, which promotes a deeper understanding of Japanese cuisine in the US.

Akiko has worked as culinary advisor to the Japanese government and consulted for companies in the food & beverage industry. She also has served as a culinary judge on Food Network’s Iron Chef America multiple times and on Netflix Original The Final Table.

She holds an MBA from New York University Stern School of Business, an MSc from London School of Economics & Political Science and a Wine & Spirits Education Trust (WSET) Advanced Certificate with Distinction.

She is the author of “A Complete Guide to Japanese Cuisine”.


Skip to: 16:07 Sake Tasting and Introduction: Kenbishi Kuromatsu Honjozo

Kenbishi Kuromatsu Honjozo


Classification: Honjozo
Acidity: 1.7
Brewery: Kenbishi Shuzo
Alcohol: 16.5%
Prefecture: Hyogo
SMV: +0.5
Rice Type: Aiyama, Yamadanishiki
Seimaibuai: 70%

View on UrbanSake.com


Skip to: 32:31 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

Episode 60 Transcript

John Puma: 0:22
Hello everybody. And welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast. I’m your host, John Puma from the Sake Notes, the admin over at the Internet Sake Discord. And the guy on the show who’s definitely not a Sake Samurai.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:37
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I am a Sake Samurai. I am also a sake educator, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week John and I will be tasting and chatting about all things, sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to Understand that’s

John Puma: 0:55
that’s right. Tim is what we do every single week.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:59
I had a question for you. Have you ever been. By yourself. Have you ever been a guest on someone else’s podcast before?

John Puma: 1:06
Mm, I was a guest on a podcast with you once, but that was a, that’s a different thing. Not, not by myself

Timothy Sullivan: 1:12
Yeah. Well, I, I have to say I had the good fortune to be on a really fabulous podcast as a guest, not once, but twice. And I’m talking about Japan eats. Have you ever heard of it?

John Puma: 1:26
Uh, so wait, before I go into that is this, this is a flex, right?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:29
Yes, this is a total

John Puma: 1:31
Okay. Um, but, uh, yes, I am familiar and I’ve actually heard, uh, at least one of the episodes that you were on.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:40
excellent. Well, I am excited to tell you, John, that we have none other than Akiko Katayama with us today. She is the host of the Japan Eats podcast. And let me give a little introduction to our Kiko. She’s a food writer and a Forbes columnist based in New York City. And since May, 2015, she’s been the host of the very well-known Japan Eats podcast. It’s also a weekly radio show on. the heritage radio network and there she introduces Japanese food, sake, and culture to an audience all around the world. She’s also the director of the nonprofit. The New York Japanese culinary academy, which promotes a deeper understanding of Japanese cuisine in the U S and she’s worked as a culinary advisor to the Japanese government. She’s consulted for companies in the food and beverage industry. And she has also been on TV! She served as a judge on the iron chef on the food network, and she’s also been on Netflix original. The Final Table. And of course she’s also the author of a Complete Guide to Japanese Cuisine, which is a fabulous book for getting a great introduction to Japanese cuisine. So we are so excited to have Akiko with us today. Akiko, welcome to the show.

Akiko Katayama: 2:54
thank you so much. What a fabulous introduction. I is it about me?

Timothy Sullivan: 2:58
Yes.

John Puma: 2:59
Tim. That was, that was, that was wonderful. it was stunning. I’m I’m kinda stuck on the iron chef bit,

Timothy Sullivan: 3:04
I know. What was, what was it like to be on TV? Was that nerve wracking for you?

Akiko Katayama: 3:09
no, I think it’s that, you know, there’s a whole lighting and everything you just decides as you’re there and you enjoy the moment. So, yeah, it’s just that you just you’re in a dreamland, so you don’t get nervous.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:25
Akiko san. I have to ask you, this is a question that you always ask on your podcast, but where are you from and what did you eat growing up?

Akiko Katayama: 3:34
that was my favorite question. So.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:37
I had to, I had to throw it back at you. I’m sorry.

Akiko Katayama: 3:41
So I’m from Tokyo and I grew up in a suburb of Tokyo. And then I actually, I looked up where I grew up as like now on Google map, I cannot recognize anything, but I have been to kind of a suburb and nice, very natural environment. I could take a walk to the river. I would fish with my dad kind of like really, Tokyo, like Tokyo life until I grew up. And, uh, so the funny thing is I didn’t like Japanese food when I grew up.

John Puma: 4:16
At all, none of it.

Akiko Katayama: 4:19
So. I was like a black sheep. Everybody else, my brother, my parents, they all only ate Japanese food or Japanese style, Western food, but I was always looking for something non Japanese. So this crazy right?, but I’m doing it.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:34
was your, what was your favorite food? What was your favorite non Japanese food that you like to eat as a kid?

Akiko Katayama: 4:39
Um, and also I didn’t like eating, so I was

John Puma: 4:47
this is a, this is a broader situation and not just about Japanese food, but just food in general.

Akiko Katayama: 4:52
Right. So it was so picky and I was always eating ice cream chocolate and something

Timothy Sullivan: 4:58
good to me.

Akiko Katayama: 5:00
but yeah, he smoked like a proper food that I was eating.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:06
And you turned out to be a culinary expert. That’s we got to dig deeper into this for sure.

Akiko Katayama: 5:11
Yeah, one of the episode for that, I had a long journey.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:15
Okay.

John Puma: 5:17
Um, so then, at some point you decided you liked food and you started your own, Japanese cuisine, radio show and podcasts. as Tim mentioned back in, 2015, Japan Eats, how did that all get started?

Akiko Katayama: 5:32
So I had been already as a writer and, um, you know, Japanese cuisine has been becoming increasingly popular, I think over the last decades. And just because I’m Japanese people started to ask me a lot of questions about Japanese food, and then I found a huge demand for proper and accurate information about Japanese food and. And then I kind of, casually spoke to one of my friends at the Heritage Radio Network and it happened to be that they’re looking for a native Japanese person who can do a show. So there they are. That was the beginning of the show six years ago. Now

Timothy Sullivan: 6:18
Wow. Did you have any experience being on the radio or doing podcasting or was it all new to you when you started in 2015?

Akiko Katayama: 6:25
Uh, no, nothing. And I, you know, English is not my first language, so it’s crazy. I was just like half joking. I never imagined that’s going to happen.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:38
you have such a wide variety of guests. You know, you have people who do tea ceremony and fish importing and sake people, and all different types of guests. How do you find such a wide variety of guests all related to Japanese culture and cuisine?

Akiko Katayama: 6:55
um, so, it’s very random and in treated and also driven by the fear. Uh, due to a scarcity of potential guests. So why am I find so many interesting that really intrigues me, um, I just contact the person and a book right away. I could find interesting people in media, or it can be suggested by a show guests or the show listeners. The first time I started the show, I thought my expectation was that I could just do a show for only a week a year, because I thought I’d run out guests who can, who knows Japanese ingredients and who can speak English. but surprise, surprise. I was able to find that a lot of people great and Japanese related people like Tim, for example, So I have a long list now, but I am really blessed to be able to find so many amazing people who are interested in Japanese cuisine.

John Puma: 8:04
So, uh, you mentioned that you, cover, you know, Japanese cuisine and sometimes sake and some other topics along those lines are related. Um, what are your favorite topics to cover on the show? And please tell me it’s okay. sake!

Akiko Katayama: 8:17
Oh, of course, of course. Yes I do. Of course is interesting. and I know I tell you why, because I’m looking for interesting stories behind each topic, sake, for example, it can be about family history or type of Koji. And it had a Koji can produce interesting flavors too. You know why this brewery decided to be organic or something very, um, personal and a way beyond a glass of sake. So, each time I prepare a show for show it’s, uh, always like reading a book. There’s so many interesting stories about the person. So it’s hard to say which one is my favorite? Which one is not? I have to say each time I’m reading a great book. That’s how I feel.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:15
Yeah, that’s really cool. Yeah. So. It does make it more compelling when you dig behind the scenes a little bit. It’s not just the technical side of Koji, but about the family history, like you said, that’s really wonderful. Now, you’ve been a consultant and an advisor and author about all things, Japanese cuisine for awhile and. I know you’re personally a fan of Japanese sake. We’ve met at many sake events here in New York city over the years. how would you say from your point of view, as a culinary expert, how would you say the sake market has changed over the last 10 years in the United States?

Akiko Katayama: 9:54
Hmm. So, as you know, to Japanese, sake industry has been declining for many reasons, like, uh, you know, hard work, younger people, not drinking sake anymore and all those many reasons, but, the overseas market is growing so fast. Thanks to, um, Hardworking sake brewers who are really aware of the importance of outside market. And also of course, experts like you guys who really educate people, how to drink sake. Why sake’s so delicious and enjoyable? I, learned that in 2020 the biggest, sake export. market is Hong Kong China. And the number three is America. It’s 20% of the total expert by value. So we are drinking more, better sake as well over time. And, uh, well, that’s one thing. The second market is really, more sophisticated in America also. I’m always excited to see, uh, new American breweries in America. You know, like the sake breweries that are really producing high quality sake. So example, I had a, you know, Brooklyn Kura and Kato Sake Works in New York. I know who was also the North American Sake Brewery in Virginia. And those, uh, I think there are over two dozens of sake breweries in America and just like a sushi. You know, the California roll or rolls were created in California by, I think I’m a Japanese entrepreneur actually to target, wide, broader market. Who could be interested in sushi and now people don’t mind paying a couple hundred dollars per person for authentic Edomai style sushi. So I see that what’s happening here could be, um, the same path to popularize it. So sushi. So she’s now part of American diet. So yeah, I feel so excited. Yeah, because american sake brewers is both. They are both creating authentic style sake as well as something very, uh, to it. Terroir driven American style sake.

John Puma: 12:16
That’s actually a really good point about the evolution of sushi. In the American kind of mind frame. I think if you go back to like the mid nineties and you say sushi to somebody and they think it’s just this bizarre, exotic thing. Oh my God, cold fish, that’s horrifying. Like it was the attitude on its back then was completely different than it is now. And it’s been such an interesting thing to see that change relatively quickly, at least in my eyes, even though it’s. It’s like twenty-five years, but, uh, it’s still been like, it’s still a complete 180 as far as, uh, how Americans view sushi. but back to the sake topic for a moment, you’ve had a lot of sake related content on the show. You mentioned having, Brooklyn, Kura and Kato Sake works on and North American sake. what is your personal experience with sake? Uh, and, and what, what kind of sake do you like? What styles do you go for?

Akiko Katayama: 13:09
So first time I would say put my first memory about sake is that my dad loved sake. So, but I was never interested in drinking sake myself. And then I. I left Japan and then I started to be more interested in, alcoholic beverages. First time I was really interested in alcoholic beverage was a wine. And when I, first time I had Chablis, like, what is that? Then I, I studied, you know, wine and visited wineries and breweries and those things. Yeah. So by learning how it’s made, who it’s making the whole understanding of what you put in your mouth changes. Right? So the same thing happened to my mind when I started working with Japanese local governments and then studied few things like breweries and spoke to those people. It was fascinating. So I really, I think it’s based on my wine knowledge, it’s just interesting to compare. And I appreciate sake because of my wine knowledge, because it’s a, there’s a, some common. Way to analyze taste, which is not common in Japanese, sake community. Cause you don’t know as much as western style wine analysis, Unfortunately my dad passed away two years ago, but we, since then I started being really into sake. I would go back to Japan and always share a bottle of nice sake and uh, we would enjoy drinking. sake together.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:48
Yeah, So for you, wine was actually the way to get into the world of sake. You studied wine first and then came back around and discovered sake through

Akiko Katayama: 14:58
Yeah, that is quite, yeah.

John Puma: 15:00
Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan: 15:01
Wow. So what are your, when you’re having alone time, no business, nobody around, uh, when you’re enjoying sake at home with your friends and family, what are your styles that you gravitate towards?

Akiko Katayama: 15:15
To tasting something I’m very adventurous and curious. So I tend to try something I’ve never tried before. And, but I was like, I, so people call me Oyaji means old man… I tend to prefer something like dry and savory. So if I had to pick one flavor profile, it tend to be dry and savory

Timothy Sullivan: 15:43
There’s a, there’s a bar that I’ve gone to in Tokyo called Ganko Oyaji which means like, I think it means stubborn old man. I think that’s the bar for you.

Akiko Katayama: 15:54
I think so.

John Puma: 15:57
That is a, that is a lovely bar, by the way, before we all can go back to Japan again,

Timothy Sullivan: 16:02
We’ll all meet. Let’s meet at Ganko Oyaji.

John Puma: 16:07
All right. and speaking of sake and oyaji style sake. uh, we let Akiko choose the sake we’re going to drink today and it is, uh, Kenbishi Honjozo. So we’re digging into digging our heels into that, that, Oyaji territory a little bit there. I think. Tim, do you want to go a little bit more in depth on this?

Timothy Sullivan: 16:32
Yeah, let me just introduce the sake to our listeners. Akiko, and then we’ll pour some out and start tasting. So this is, as John just mentioned a Honjozo so Honjozo’s that alcohol added style of sake This is from, Kenbishi Sake Brewery in Hyogo prefecture. Which is one of the main, main regions for sake. It’s got, between 16 and 17% alcohol, a very low SMV of +0.5 and then a higher acidity, 1.7. And the rice that they use for this sake is Aiyama and Yamada nishiki both milled to 70% remaining, so not a very fine milling rate. All right. So I’m going to pour this into my wine glass. What’s yellow.

John Puma: 17:28
a little bit. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:29
One other thing I want to mention Akiko is that this brand introduces themselves as the oldest brand in Japan. Um, on the label, John, look on the label. Doesn’t It say? Oldest

John Puma: 17:42
Does say oldest brand. And, I’m about to answer my own question. I was going to say, well, how old? Um, it says since 1505, so,

Timothy Sullivan: 17:53
The logo they use for the brand looks like a shield. It’s like a black solid black mark that looks kind of like a medieval shield shape. And they’ve been using that logo since the 1500s.

John Puma: 18:05
wow.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:06
that’s, that’s something amazing. Okay. So I have this poured and Akiko, I think you brought the sake in, you got the one cup, right? The sake cup.

Akiko Katayama: 18:18
Uh, yeah, actually I chose this one because what I heard is this won, an award for design award in Japan in 2008. And the thing is that it’s 180 milliliters, which is very small and it’s appealing to younger generations. Whenever getting interested in sake, it’s very. Fashionable. And you can use it after you empty this. You can use this as a tokkuri which is a serving vessel, and it’s really cute. And I heard, uh, the heat distribution is really a functional because of this shape. Uh, it’s like, uh, you know, bigger shoulder shape in a small bottle,

Timothy Sullivan: 18:59
Yeah.

Akiko Katayama: 19:00
so I thought it was a very smart

Timothy Sullivan: 19:02
Yeah. Well, if I started making sake in 15 something and I had to wait until 2018 to win a design award, I might be a little upset, but, but better, late than never. Right. All right. Well, John, you have your sample poured.

John Puma: 19:23
I do have it poured. Slightly chilled, uh, and then. I believe we are also going to send me a little warm.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:29
Yeah. So let’s try the sample. Uh, chilled first. I have mine in a wine glass. You can see the color. It’s got a nice light straw color. Very lovely. Almost looks like a white wine

John Puma: 19:44
almost,

Akiko Katayama: 19:45
kind of greener, right? Pale green.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:50
Let’s give it a smell. So I don’t mean this in a derogatory way, but this smells Cheesy.

John Puma: 20:03
Cheesy.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:04
ice. It smells like a little bit of like a little bit of a cheese rind or something like that. For me,

Akiko Katayama: 20:10
Definitely.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:11
a very deep fermentation aroma,

John Puma: 20:14
Yes.

Akiko Katayama: 20:15
it’s very ricey.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:19
Yeah.

John Puma: 20:19
Very much. and there’s a lot of it. It is not subtle and is, uh, in any way. it w when we’re talking about rice and cheese as being some of the things that we smell on this, uh, definitely definitely in your face.

Akiko Katayama: 20:32
But interesting. Like, right after that, there’s like a, I don’t have him citrusy or some, uh, like, uh, elderberry, like hint of some, uh, refreshing elderberry, like gin. So it’s kind of balances out. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:50
like a botanical. Yeah.

John Puma: 20:52
Yeah. Once you said Gin, I was like, in my eyes lit up. I’m like that’s. Yes. That’s exactly what it is.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:59
Akiko san that wine training is. coming in handy.

John Puma: 21:02
It really is.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:05
All right, let’s give it a taste. Mm, lots of umami, very savory, almost like soy sauce. Yeah,

John Puma: 21:15
Yeah,

Akiko Katayama: 21:15
my God. my cheek hurts! it’s so much.

John Puma: 21:21
and we we’ve, we’ve talked before about like sake as being like the fruit bomb. This is the umami bomb.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:26
this is the umami bomb. Yes, very savory

John Puma: 21:29
Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:30
warming umami, rich. Think about soy sauce, flavors, miso flavors. Um, this would pair so well with, uh, So many things in Japanese cuisine because of that, that dash umami flavor

Akiko Katayama: 21:47
you know how you name that flavor? It’s called the kokumi

John Puma: 21:53
kokumi.

Akiko Katayama: 21:54
It’s a, the sixth flavor after umami. So sweet salty, bitter sour, umami. And then there’s a kokumi, which means richness. Like typically you have very rich dashi, you know, Japanese style stock. It’s like a richness and a deep beyond umami depth. That’s called kokumi. I, I think it’s going to be the terminology in the culinary world very soon.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:25
oh my gosh, this is breaking news.

John Puma: 22:28
like that. Similar at work. We’re getting ahead

Timothy Sullivan: 22:30
There’s a new flavor. I did not know that. kokumi.

Akiko Katayama: 22:34
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:35
Wow. Okay. So this is an example of kokumi and like ultra ultra rich umami. Wow. Wow. I love it. it. kokumi

John Puma: 22:54
And Tim, as you implied, this is, um, this would go so, so well with food, I think this is begging for food. Uh, it is so just ready to be, uh, to be drunk alongside something really nice and rich. That’s going to compliment it wonderfully.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:09
Yeah, Akiko. Do you have any ideas for food pairings with this sake at this temperature kind of slightly chilled or room temperature?

Akiko Katayama: 23:19
Um, this one, I would think roast chicken?

Timothy Sullivan: 23:26
Hm. Yeah. That’s that sounds great. I was thinking of oden. So oden is something I discovered in Japan. They sell it in convenience stores, it’s on the counter. And when I first saw it, I said, what’s that brown on food. They soak, they soak all kinds of delicious nibbles in like a soy sauce broth, and every turns, everything brown, whether it’s daikon or eggs. And it, it infuses these kind of more neutral flavors with a delicious umami brown color and kind of a savoriness. And, and you eat it um, almost like a, like a chunky stew, like you put pieces on a plate and there’s a little sauce in there too. I think that would go great with this. What do you think?

John Puma: 24:17
Sounds like it would work. Yeah.

Akiko Katayama: 24:19
Hey, I think because, well, they have different ingredients and this could be the kind of, you know, binder that connects every single piece of them.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:31
Yeah.

John Puma: 24:32
Uh, for me, I just keep thinking like late night, izakaya and like that kind of food, like the kind of food you get at like after the last train in Japan style, like late night, izakaya, like one in the morning. You’re you’re, you’re eating stuff. That’s a little bit greasier, but, but yeah, so like, um, you know, maybe kushi katsu,

Akiko Katayama: 24:53
Yeah, that’s definitely oyaji moment.

John Puma: 24:56
yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:00
Absolutely. Absolutely. And John, I have to remind our listeners that one of my new year’s resolutions was to drink outside my comfort zone. And I think that because of Akiko suggestion we’re going there.

John Puma: 25:10
Tim, we can’t see your comfort zone from here.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:14
I’m trained to love clean and crisp and light sake. And this is the polar opposite, but it’s so delicious and so rich and I’m really enjoying it. So, uh, as a bonus, we have prepared this sake at a warmer temperature as well. And this again was also Akikos recommendation to try it chilled and warm. And, uh, I have. My warm carafe here. So I’m going to pour this as well.

John Puma: 25:40
Mine is warmed up as well.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:42
So what do you think of the aroma when it’s warm?

John Puma: 25:46
The aroma. I’m not sure if it’s the vessel that I’m drinking out of, which is, uh, a traditional, ceramic ochoko, but it’s much more contained. Like the, the aroma is much more subtle now.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:59
I agree. It feels a little less pointed and a little less expressive, a little more muted. Um,

Akiko Katayama: 26:08
Hmm, interesting. Cause I have this a huge, double bottom glass with a huge mouth and, uh, it’s more floral. And then, and before I used, a smaller mouth, uh Ridel glass, then I think because of the temperature. I have little spiciness in your finish, so it’s like floral. And the spicy and. It’s a very different experience out of same hundred millimeters, small glass jar. but I have to say mine is, I think a lower temperature is like a little nuru-kan. Yeah. I think yours is more temperature controlled.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:57
Yeah. my sample, I think is a jo-kan temperature around 115 degrees fahrenheit

John Puma: 27:04
Mine is showing us 112 right now on my little thermometer.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:09
Yeah, yeah. So it’s a very gentle warming and I’m still picking up on savoriness and umami and the aroma. But for me it feels a little, like a little more. Muted and not as in your face, it feels a little softer around the edges when you warm it up and now let’s give it a taste. Very excited.

Akiko Katayama: 27:30
Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:31
Hmm. Oh, wow. Wow.

John Puma: 27:36
is wildly different.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:38
very, very different. I mean, it’s still savory and it’s still warm and they’re still umami. But it spreads across your palate, a lot wider coats, your mouth, and it has a longer finish. Are you experiencing that?

Akiko Katayama: 27:55
so it’s a numbing, like a spiciness on your tongue. And this one I would want to have, um, baked. Fish like Japanese style, salt

Timothy Sullivan: 28:07
Hmm.

Akiko Katayama: 28:07
and something very simple.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:09
Oh. Yeah, like in the autumn, they serve the silver fish that’s been roasted. Yeah. they have sanma, every, every autumn in Japan and it’s like the quintessential autumnal dish. And I think that would go really well this.

Akiko Katayama: 28:26
Sanma has a bitterness, like a part of sanma has a very like red meat bitterness. So that would be perfect with this kind of spicy, long lasting experience in your tongue.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:41
Yeah, this really has a longer finish to it. The flavor stays with you longer when it’s warmed up. Really interesting. It’s so great. The fact that you can serve the same sake a at, uh, quite a cold temperature, quite a warm temperature room temperature. It’s an amazing superpower that sake has not many other alcoholic beverages have, and we really can’t forget. How delicious sake can be when you warm it up. Warm sake has got kind of a bad rap over recent history. And I think it’s time to reform the image of warm sake something super delicious. And this sake really

Akiko Katayama: 29:22
Hey, and also you don’t have to mill down rice because it’s only 30% milled away. So it’s amazing how delicate it can be with this. In your face. Rice flavor can be so delicate.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:37
too many people are chasing super low milling rates. You know, I’m down to 5%, 4%. I’ll see your 4% and give you 3%.

John Puma: 29:48
I like, I like to call that “Stunt Seimaibuai”

Timothy Sullivan: 29:50
Stunt Seimaibuai,. but no, no doubt about it. Those sakes delicious, but this just, this just shows you what you can do when you, when you leave more rice grain, uh, in the, in the tank, you get more complex and rich, earthy flavors. There’s more fats and proteins that get into the mash and onto our palates. And it really adds dimension to the taste. I

Akiko Katayama: 30:16
Hm. I know one thing I read, uh, on their website is that they don’t they’re mailing rate changes depending on the year, because it’s based on how the rice was grown. So it’s, uh, the focus is the consistency of the tastes of sake, not the number. So I thought it was very interesting.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:41
yeah.

John Puma: 30:41
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:43
After 500 years, I think they’re no, they know what they’re doing. I hope.

John Puma: 30:49
Well, I mean, well, they finally figured out the design, so, but it seems that they might’ve figured out the sake a very long time ago. And personally, I think that it’s good for my sake, breweries to be focusing on the sake first and then the design can come later 500 years.

Akiko Katayama: 31:07
Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:10
Wonderful. Well, this has been so much fun, wonderful tasting with you Akiko. Now we want to make sure that our listeners can find you find your podcasts. So can you let us know the best way for listeners to learn more about your show and about your work?

Akiko Katayama: 31:26
Sure. So, you can find a Japan Eats, it’s on, uh, you know, as a podcast it’s on iTunes, Stitcher, and Spotify, and also it can go to, uh, the heritage radio website. That’s a page heritageradionetwork.org. And also if you go to akikokatayama.com, that’s my website there, all the links that you’d like to find.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:49
wonderful. And we’ll be sure to link up all of those in our show notes.

John Puma: 31:56
as well as a picture of that bottle. Uh, the 180 milliliter bottle of the kenbishi, because it is very striking and very beautiful. It earned that award.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:05
After 500 years.

John Puma: 32:06
After 500 years.

Akiko Katayama: 32:09
Now.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:13
Wonderful. So we’ll be sure to put all those links into our show notes. Akiko. Thank you so much for joining us. It was an absolute pleasure. I hope you’ll stay around for a kanpai at the end? Of Of

Akiko Katayama: 32:25
course. Thank you so much. It was an honor. I am a huge fan of your podcast, so thank you so much.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:31
thank you so much. Wonderful to have you Well, I want to thank all of our listeners so much for tuning in. We really do hope that you’re enjoying our show. Now, if you’d like to show your support for Sake Revolution, one way you can really help us out would be to take a couple of minutes and, leave us a quick written review on apple podcasts. It’s a great way for us to get the word out about our show.

John Puma: 32:53
And, uh, when you’re done writing your review on apple podcasts, please go and tell a friend and then subscribe. And then until your friend has subscribed to, um, this way, every week, whenever we put out a new episode, it will show up on your device of choice and you will not miss a single episode.

Timothy Sullivan: 33:12
And as always to learn more about any of the topics, any of the people or any of the sake we talked about in today’s episode. Be sure to visit our website, SakeRevolution.com for all the detailed show notes.

John Puma: 33:25
And we know that you at home have sake questions that you need answered, and we want to hear them. Please reach out to us. The email address is [email protected] So until next time. Please raise a glass and remember to keep drinking sake and Kanapi.

Timothy Sullivan: 33:47
yay.