Episode 133 Show Notes

Episode 133. It’s time to get wild again! Wild about sake rice, that is. Wild Rice is our series where we look closer at different strains of sake rice and what makes them unique. This time around, we take things a bit literally and look at a true heritage wild rice strain that is used to make sake. A “wild rice” episode featuring an actual wild rice? A bit too on the nose perhaps, but we couldn’t resist! We are talking about “Akamai” or red rice. This ancient grain has a distinct dark color and contains tannins that help facilitate a striking rosé-blush color when it is used to make sake. Flavors can be bright, tart, and fruity – anything but boring. Let’s dive in and see how wild this rice actually is! #sakerevolution

Skip to: 00:19 Hosts Welcome and Introduction
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy.

Skip to: 01:28 Revolution Resolutions

Skip to: 04:59 Wild Rice: Akamai Red Rice
About Akamai:

Akamai Red Rice
“Kodaimai” is the term for ancient wild rice.

Akamai means red rice. The variety of rice that Mukai Shuzo uses is called “murasaki komachi”

Skip to: 18:12 Sake Tasting and Introduction: Ine Mankai Junmai Genshu

Ine Mankai Junmai Genshu

Alcohol: 14.0%
Sake Name English: Ine’s Full Bloom
Classification: Genshu, Junmai
Prefecture: Kyoto
Rice Type: Kyo no Kagayaki, Murasakikomachi
Seimaibuai: 92%, 70%
Brewery: Mukai Shuzo
SMV: -5.0
Acidity: 2.3
Importer/Distributor: Floating World Sake
Yeast: Kyokai 701
Brand: Ine Mankai

View on UrbanSake.com

Mukai Shuzo Dock and boat houses of Ine town.

Skip to: 30:08 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

Announcing Patreon

Now there is a new way to support Sake Revolution. Join us on Patreon! Patreon is an online platform that allows you to support your favorite creators by subscribing to a monthly membership. At Sake Revolution, we’re offering two tiers, each with its own perk. If you enjoy our sake podcast, if you are able, please consider supporting this labor of sake love! See below to learn about our Patreon support levels.

  • Sake Enthusiast

    Have you ever wanted to sip along with us as we taste our sakes on the podcast? Now you can! As a Sake Enthusiast patron, you’ll get the inside track and know in advance which sakes we’ll be featuring on the show. This allows you to get them on hand and sip along with us while you listen.

  • Sake Otaku

    As a Sake Otaku supporter of the pod, you’ll get access to all the Sake Enthusiast intel along with access to a monthly live zoom Sake Happy Hour taking place the first Weds of every month at 9pm ET (6pm PT). Visit with us live on zoom! Come with all your questions and suggestions and enjoy a relaxed and fun Happy Hour with with us as we all sip sake together!

Episode 133 Transcript

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. I have a slightly different EM faus on my Bels today. this is America’s very first sake podcast. And I am your host, John Puma. You may know me from the Sake Notes. You may also know me as the guy who started the internet sake discord on this show. I’m the guy who’s not the Sake Samurai, that’s the other guy.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:47
And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m a sake educator, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake, doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 1:05
Hello, Tim. Welcome back.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:07
John. It’s a new year. New Year new you,

John Puma: 1:12
new, uh, new Year’s same me so Uh, we’ll see how it progresses. but you know, we’re only a couple of days in, uh, into this new year. But, before we proceed any further, there is some business that we need to attend to.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:27

John Puma: 1:28
At the end of our previous episode, we promised our intrepid listeners that we were going to have our, our Sake revolution resolutions for 2023 in our hip pocket today when we started this episode. So you’ve had a week to think about it. Tim, what are, what is your resolution for 2023?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:49
well, my sake resolution is simple, straightforward, and achievable.

John Puma: 1:57
Okay. These are all pluses. I like this.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:01
Yes. I have not been to Japan since 2019, so my goal is to get my butt over to Nihon and enjoy some time in Japan before the end of 2023. Come hell or high water. What do you, what do you think of that?

John Puma: 2:19
I think, uh, I think it’s very doable. Uh, having done it, having done it already, I’m gonna tell you, is not that hard. and now it isn’t. It’s gone. It went from impossible to remarkably easy like that. So,

Timothy Sullivan: 2:33
Don’t, don’t you wish you, you had that as your resolution last year

John Puma: 2:36
I I, I can’t, man. I mean, if I had it last year, it would’ve been, it would’ve been great. It would’ve been prophetic even. last year I wasn’t, I didn’t want jinx it so

Timothy Sullivan: 2:44

John Puma: 2:44
I kept my mouth. Yeah. I kept my mouth shut. Have you, have you booked yet?

Timothy Sullivan: 2:48
Nope. I haven’t booked yet,

John Puma: 2:49
Okay. All right. All right. Well, when you go, I’m, I’m really excited. We’ll do another live from Japan episode with the roles reversed.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:56
that will be a freaky Friday episode. I’m gonna look forward to

John Puma: 3:01

Timothy Sullivan: 3:02
what about you?

John Puma: 3:04
Oh, me ha. Uh, yes. I. Talk on the show a lot. when we taste our sake and we, we sometimes we dabble in, how would you pair this? And I am often at a loss. I do not think about pairing when I’m drinking sake. Generally speaking, I focus really on the sake. I never think about how the food’s gonna really work with it too much. So my goal for 2023 is to, uh, is to focus on pairings and to make sure that I. foods with my sake, you know, maybe take notes, you know, that didn’t go great last year. but you know, just, just try to keep track and try to have, try to be more cognizant of what kind of food I’m having with my sake and what kind of sake I’m having with my food. And maybe make a, a few more connections so that I can be a little more helpful during those parts of the show.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:01
That’s a great resolution and you know, I think it really just ties into paying attention when you eat. Pair sake with food, what works, what doesn’t work, what really clicks with you, and just being a little present when you’re pairing food in sake, that makes a huge difference. And, and, uh, I think it’s gonna be fun in a year from now to check in and see what you’ve discovered in relation to food and sake pairing

John Puma: 4:30
All right. I like the way you put that. Uh, I to pay attention when I eat. That’ll be a new thing. I’ll try. I pay attention when I eat. Uh, yes. No, I’m, I’m really excited about that and, uh, and about trying to, you know, trying to just be better about that. I think it’s a blind spot for me. I think it’s something I wanna address.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:46
Awesome. Okay,

John Puma: 4:47
not as, not as easy as, Going

Timothy Sullivan: 4:49
to Japan,

John Puma: 4:50
or anything like that, but But I think it’ll be, I think we’re going to have a lot of fun, uh, on both of our, respective resolutions.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:59
So well now that that is all buttoned up and we are ready to face 2023, head on, let’s dive into our first full episode of the New Year. We’re going to be adding another episode to our Wild Rice series. So this is a series that we’ve done over the, I can say it now over the years. Of sake revolution.

John Puma: 5:24
it’s, I feel like it’s been a while since we’ve done a wild Rice

Timothy Sullivan: 5:27
Yeah. Longtime listeners will know that we have a series called Wild Rice where we taste sakes that come from a given rice strain, and we explore the background of that rice and we taste a sake from that that’s made from that, and we’re going to get back into that today. But something a little bit unique. This may be borderline extreme

John Puma: 5:53
Wait a second, Okay. So, uh, borderline, extreme wild rice. So this is gonna be some funky rice, huh?

Timothy Sullivan: 6:03
Yes. The type of rice we’re gonna be talking about today is known in Japanese by a few different names. The first one is Akamai

John Puma: 6:12

Timothy Sullivan: 6:13
Aka means “red” and “mai” means rice. So this is red rice. Have you ever heard of that before? Or you know about red rice?

John Puma: 6:22
I have heard of red rice, and I have seen, uh, sakes that utilize red rice. I don’t think I’ve ever had a sake that uses red rice though.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:32
Yeah. So. Red rice is literally a wild rice. So we could, we could say the whole series was named after this type of rice

John Puma: 6:42
that’s a, I don’t know if that’s brilliant or a cop out, but I like it.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:45
Yes. So wild rice is often called. Kodaimai or ancient rice. So this is rice that has not been cross-bred with other varieties of rice. So many types of premium sake. Rice are cultivated and cross-bred and have a parent and a grandparent and you know, they, they selectively breed rice for different characteristics that are important. But this type of Akamai or Kodaimai is really ancient strains of wild rice. And if you’re familiar with wild rice in the US, it tends to be black and very thin grained. And sometimes you mix it in with regular white rice to make like a pilaf off or something like

John Puma: 7:32

Timothy Sullivan: 7:33
Have you had that before? Like the type of

John Puma: 7:35
It’s actually one of my favorite things to ha It’s mixing some wild rice in with, peel off or something like that is delicious.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:43
Yeah, well, we, we looked into a little bit of what makes these wild rice or red rice, what makes it special, and it turns out that the Akamai has tannins in it.

John Puma: 7:56

Timothy Sullivan: 7:56

John Puma: 7:57
in, in, in, in sake rice.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:00
Well, this isn’t, this isn’t sake rice per se. This is not usually used for making sake, but the presence of tannins in wild rice allows brewers who choose to work with these types of grains to get an outcome that looks like a rose. It’s really interesting. when the tannins are exposed to light over time, they give off this natural pinky red color, and it allows brewers to create. These sakes that have a very, very distinct hue to them. And it’s something that not a lot of brewers do, but we’re gonna be exploring some sakes today that use this so-called Akamai or wild rice, red rice, and it’s the tannins that are in the rice that allows them to get that color really.

John Puma: 8:59
Hmm. All right. This is a, this’ll be educational.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:03
Yeah, so this is not the type of rice that’s going to have a shin, paku, or a starchy core. This is not considered Shuzokotekimai, which is the fancy word for premium sake rice. This is literally wild rice that if you look at it as a whole grain, it looks blackish or sometimes almost purple-ish in color. And it’s really unique and not something you’re gonna see every brewer using

John Puma: 9:35
Hmm. So is this a, a rice that you would normally, uh, you know, this specific rice, is this a rice that you would normally eat?

Timothy Sullivan: 9:44
it is a rice that is grown kind of like a heritage grain. You know, like it’s a. It’s an ancient grain and it’s used in all kinds of things. I think a lot of health food applications use these wild grains in Japan, so you can eat it. As I mentioned before, it’s not something that’s usually used for sake, except a few exceptions.

John Puma: 10:06
All right. I, I definitely am starting to see where that extreme might be peeking its head in on this episode.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:14
Yes. And I think the main characteristic you’re going to notice from sakes that use Akamai or Red rice is the color like that’s gonna jump out at you. First and

John Puma: 10:26
gonna, it’s a dead giveaway.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:27
it is a dead giveaway.

John Puma: 10:29

Timothy Sullivan: 10:29
Now we’re gonna focus in on a particular brewery and a particular sake. Today, this brewery has such an interesting story. I really wanted to share with you, John, some of the research I did. The brewery we’re looking at today is called Mukai Shuzo.

John Puma: 10:46
Mukai Shuzo. All right. uh, and where are they located?

Timothy Sullivan: 10:51
They’re in Kyoto Prefecture, and when people hear Kyoto, they often think of the city of Kyoto. But they are .They are in a seaside town called Ine. Ine, and it is a small town on the Bay of Ine, which right next to the Sea of Japan. So this is in Northern Kyoto Prefecture. and it’s pretty much right on the water, right on the ocean. The town is like a cultural heritage site because they have boat houses that line the coastline. So people over the years built their houses right on the water, and the first floor was like, A boathouse where you could like ride your boat right into your house. And then the second floor is like where you live. They have 230 of these boat houses lining the bay and looking at pictures of this town. It’s really, really beautiful. And Mukai Shuzo is in this town and it is listed as the closest brewery to the sea of any brewery in Japan. So it’s like right on the water

John Puma: 12:04
Huh. That’s great.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:06
Yeah. And they have a floating dock outside of their brewery and in the summer they take guests out to the dock and you sit on these wooden benches and it’s like rocking a little bit and they serve you the sake and you do your tasting out on this floating dock on the water. It’s really beautiful and interesting.

John Puma: 12:24
Hmm. All right. That sounds pretty cool.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:27
Uh, the, the story gets even more interesting though because the Toji is a woman named Kuniko Mukai, and this brewery was founded in 1754.

John Puma: 12:44

Timothy Sullivan: 12:45

John Puma: 12:46
that that tracks.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:47
Yeah. And. She was the daughter of the president and thought for most of her time growing up that she was going to be the next generation president because she did not have a brother. So the the father said to her, I’m only gonna pay for your college if you go to agricultural sake school. And that’s a legit university that a lot of sake brewers next generations go to. So she tried to apply for the Army, the self-defense forces, but she got rejected from the Army So she took her father up on the offer even though she had no interest in running the Sake brewery. And she went to agricultural school to study sake, and she met some wonderful professors there. And one thing that they did was they introduced her to red rice.

John Puma: 13:40

Timothy Sullivan: 13:41
at her school thought that, you know, shochu was overtaking sake as far as what people were drinking, and her professors taught her that they need something eye-catching, something that people will notice so that sake can make an impression again. And so she always carried th this idea of red rice sake in the back of her head and get this, she was 23 years. When this is 1998, she was appointed Toji by her father, one of the first female Tojis in Japan.

John Puma: 14:20
That’s awesome.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:21

John Puma: 14:22
That’s great. It’s another one of those stories. The younger person comes in, gets, goes to school, gets new ideas, they, they show up and try to change the world. And it’s pretty cool

Timothy Sullivan: 14:32
But. This is where conflict comes into the story. Yeah. She joined the brewery as the TOI at age 23 and as woman, and the brewers that were working there were all 60, 70 years old. And they were not happy with, they knew her her whole life, like she grew up in the brewery. She knew all these men who were working in the brewery, but to suddenly have her with no experience, be their boss, created a lot of conflict. And she said in interviews that this period of her life was really difficult and challenging, but she needed to go through it in order to learn how to really be a togi, which is a lot. Managing people and making sure people are taken care of and have the right working conditions. And she said in so many interviews I read with her that harmony between the workers is needed to make good sake. So she looks back on this time really as a trial by fire, and over the years she started. Implementing ways of working together with her team and created that harmony that she was after. And guess what, while all this was going on, her father and mother had a son.

John Puma: 15:52
Yeah, but he was like two. You know, he is a

Timothy Sullivan: 15:55
Not at the, I mean, it was a, it was a few years after, uh, she was expecting it, but the son was born and now he’s the President. And she is the Toji. So it’s a brother sister team that run Mukai. Shuzo.

John Puma: 16:11
So she’s the still the to and he got to be, he got to, to rise up and become the, the Kuramoto.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:17
Yeah. I think when she was like, I think when she was like 12 or something like that, her younger brother, brother was born and, uh, they weren’t sure what was gonna happen, but she ended up falling in love with being a toji and doing the brewing. And the brother came back after her father retired and her brother took over, like the administrative type of work. And she, because she had the training at the agriculture school to brew sake, she kept going with being the toge. One thing that happened in her role as Toji is she thought back to her professor who inspired her so much at agriculture school and her town grows a strain of red rice, so she decided to use her local red rice and try to make a successful sake using this very unique ingredient. the red rice that they grow in, uh, the town of ink is called Murasaki Komachi. Murasaki Komachi. that’s, that’s the red rice that they grow there. And that’s what sent her on this journey of making this sake we’re gonna taste today.

John Puma: 17:37
Oh, that’s an interesting tale. I like, I like when there’s a good story with these, uh, with these breweries and, and, and some fun things that we get Nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:46
Yeah, I saw a few interviews with her. She is very enthusiastic about sake. She has a super bright personality and. She is not going to settle for normal run of the mill sake, although they make really good classic sake too. They’re known in Japan. This sake we’re gonna taste is their signature sake, the one made with the red rice.

John Puma: 18:10
Mm. All right.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:12
All right. Do you wanna introduce us to the sake will be tasting today.

John Puma: 18:15
That sounds good to me. So, this, Ine Munkai Junmai Genshu now you may immediately think Genshu, it’s gonna be a lot of alcohol, but remember, Genshu just means it’s not water diluted. It, but that does not necessarily mean. A lot of alcohol, it just means no water added. And in this case, the alcohol percentage is only 14%. That’s very interesting. And so much like the rice Pilaf you mentioned earlier. Uh, this one is of course using more than one rice. You’ve got your Kyo no Kagayaki milled down to 70%, and then that Murasaki Komachi, the red rice Akamai, milled down to 92%, Tim, and it’s like, I guess they had to mill something. had to mill a little bit. the SMV on this one is minus five. That’s that, uh, measure of dry to sweet. So pretty sweet until we see the acidity of 2.3, probably offsetting that sweetness quite a bit. This is gonna be funky, Tim, this is gonna be extreme based on these numbers. My prediction is funky, extreme sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:22
Yes, this is a crossover episode with

John Puma: 19:25
Yeah. ,I think it might be. Yes. Uh, so, um, without further ado, let’s put some, uh, AKA in our glass.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:35
Absolutely. So let’s go ahead and pour this Ine mankai sake.

John Puma: 19:45
Oh dear. It is quite red,

Timothy Sullivan: 19:48
Have you ever seen a sake this color before?

John Puma: 19:51
Uh, nope.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:52
Yeah. This

John Puma: 19:53
I, I’ve seen other red or pink sakes before, but none of them have this exact hue. and also most of the other ones I’ve had that had that color, it came from the yeast.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:04
Yes. That’s a great point, John. Yeah, there there’s different ways to make red or rose colored sake using the. Ancient strains of wild rice that have the tannins in them as one. But there’s some strains of yeast that can give off, uh, certain components that are going to give that blush of pink to the sake as well.

John Puma: 20:28
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:29
Those, those always seemed a little bit lighter to me. This has a more intense coloration in my

John Puma: 20:34
Definitely it’s a big color.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:37
All right, well now let’s give it a smell. You ready for.

John Puma: 20:41

Timothy Sullivan: 20:43
This is not, this is not John’s style of sake.

John Puma: 20:49

Timothy Sullivan: 20:50
It’s extreme. It, it’s okay. I’m gonna be honest with you. This smells like some things that I know you don’t like

John Puma: 20:59
Ah, you know me so

Timothy Sullivan: 21:00
I get a little bit of a cheesy note on the aroma. It smells. There’s some cheese, aroma,

John Puma: 21:09

Timothy Sullivan: 21:11

John Puma: 21:12
the, the, the cheese, the cheese alarm is going off in, in John’s mind.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:18
Yes, and there’s also a briny aroma as well that smells like olives to me, which I know you also do not like.

John Puma: 21:28
We’re doing great. Uh, two for two but you know, not every sake needs to be for me, the sake for everybody.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:36
Yes. But there are some, you know, there’s some, uh, of that creamy, uh, cheesy aroma, but there’s also some fruitiness, maybe a little bit of cherry or something like that in the background.

John Puma: 21:55
Yeah, there’s something. There is something

Timothy Sullivan: 21:56
Hmm. Something tart

John Puma: 21:58
Yes. So something tart. There’s something cherry. I just have to work through the cheese to get there.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:07
with a machete. You have to fight your way.

John Puma: 22:10

Timothy Sullivan: 22:11
All right. Well, it This is a very complex aroma. Very funky.

John Puma: 22:17
Oh, quite

Timothy Sullivan: 22:18
Yes. All right. This may not be in your wheelhouse, Puma, but we’re gonna soldier on.

John Puma: 22:25
We are.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:25
Yes. Alright. Let’s give it a taste. Hmm. Oh, wow. The flavor is not cheesy at all. The flavor is, it tastes, it tastes like cherry soda to me.

John Puma: 22:42
the cherry really comes through. a lot more on the taste than it does on the nose.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:46

John Puma: 22:47

Timothy Sullivan: 22:48
It’s like a cherry seltzer that’s gone flat. That’s what it tastes

John Puma: 22:51
Yeah. Almost like a, a, almost like a, a cocktail that’s using uh, like a flat cherry this is really a lot lighter in flavor than I was expecting. I was, I, with that aroma, I was expecting, um, just a heavyweight, you know, left hook coming at me,

Timothy Sullivan: 23:10

John Puma: 23:11
This is, Uh, much lighter light is the right word, I think.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:17
Yeah, it’s not, it’s not too heavy. But the aroma is definitely more funky. It has a cherry note and there’s also umami there. There’s a savoriness along with that. There’s a depth of flavor here.

John Puma: 23:35
and there’s, Hmm. It’s weird. You gonna sip on it and have it be light and tasty and done, but if you want, if you linger on it, you’re gonna get all that depth, you’re gonna be treated, you’re gonna be, have a little bonus.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:46
Yeah. Really interesting, unique sake.

John Puma: 23:51

Timothy Sullivan: 23:53
But this is a popular sake in Japan. And right now I read online that for Mukai Shuzo, this production of this one sake, this red rice sake makes up half of her production.

John Puma: 24:10

Timothy Sullivan: 24:11
half of what she makes is this sake. So this is a huge part of their brand identity now, and I think a lot of people might view this as a standard bearer for these types of rose sakes made from red rice. Like she’s figured out the way to get that color and create a really unique depth of flavor.

John Puma: 24:36
I understand that, and this is definitely a unique. Sake. And I, I don’t mean that in a diminutive kind of way. I, I mean that as a, a compliment it’s so interesting and it is so, unexpected, especially after the aroma. I hate to, I keep parking on that aroma, but you know, when I smell cheese, I get nervous. It is this weird combination of being like, it is light, much lighter than you expected to be. it has depth, much more depth than you, than you think when you taste how light it is. but there’s also like almost like a, a, a syrupy quality to it as well. And I think that comes from the tartness that we had in the aroma. it’s, almost like a cherry syrup into like a, if you’re making a, I got, An old style, uh, soft drink that had like cherry syrup in it and you put a little too much and maybe not enough seltzer like that. It’s got that going on. It’s got almost, honestly, this has like a lot of cocktail characteristics to it.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:32
Hmm. Yeah, I mean this, this would be an interesting sake to use as a cocktail base for sure. That’s a great

John Puma: 25:41
I think if you put a little bit of seltzer in this, you’re gonna blow somebody’s mind. Honestly just a, a little as a splash of seltzer with this. You got a little bit of bubbles.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:50
and a squeeze of lime.

John Puma: 25:51
I’m gonna try this later. I’m gonna see if it works. We’ve got seltzer in the house. Uh, yeah, we’re gonna see if this is, uh, if my, theory holds up.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:00
I have read that the exact method that they use for extracting and preserving the color is a guarded secret. So yeah, so we don’t know. We don’t know exactly how they extract the tannins and how they work with the rice. we do know that it’s polished down to 92% remaining. So they’re just removing the very, very outside of the Hull. And that maximizes the amount of tannins that are going to be left in that rice. And they probably need that. And as you said before, Kyo no kagayaki that’s also a Kyoto Rice, that’s mill that’s, uh, gonna give us a white rice base and that’s 70%. So there’s a balance between mixing. heirloom red rice with a more traditional sake rice. And I think you, you definitely would need that to create something more palatable with a little more balance to it.

John Puma: 27:06
Nice. What are we thinking for pairing with this sake? This is a weird sake. This is a very unusual, funky, fun sake. What do you think? Here? I’m gonna take notes.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:15
Okay, well my feeling is that if you had like a black cherry or dark cherry dessert, like a, a tort with cherries in it. That would be great. With this, I’m leaning, like my inclination is a little bit towards dessert because I’m getting such like cherry pomegranate notes on this, a little bit more of those tart, tart flavors. I think that a dessert with sweetness, but touching upon those flavor notes would be really, really great. I would also pair this with cheese. I know that’s not your wheelhouse, jp, but I was picking up on distinct, funky, cheesy notes on the aroma and I

John Puma: 27:59
so, so not like a hard cheese, but like a funky cheese. You’re having like some blue cheese with this. Like what are you thinking

Timothy Sullivan: 28:04
Yeah, I think, I think blue cheese would be great. I also, I think hard cheeses would also be good, like gouda or something like that. This type of sweeter but rich. I enjoy cheeses and if you had a little dark cherry chutney on the side and you dabbled that on a cheese and ate it, I think that would be amazing. And this is similar to that, where you take something sweet and pair that with a salty lactic cheese and you get that flavor combination that’s so good. So people’s pair people pair sweet things and cheese all the time. And this is just another variation of that. So, Dessert’s one way to go and I think, uh, cheese platter is another really great way to go.

John Puma: 28:48
Hmm. Fascinating. All right.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:49
You taking notes,

John Puma: 28:51
I, I, I am typing very quietly. Very nice. Apart from the cheese, I’m, uh, I’m excited to, uh, to see what I can do with this. I’m, you know, more the dessert. I think I was gonna see the avenue I take with, this’ll be pairing it with a dessert. I do think that, uh, with the sweetness in the high acidity, you can really, you can get some, nice dessert out of this.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:10
Yeah. And your idea to do the cocktail genius like that is amazing.

John Puma: 29:15
That’s happening.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:16
That has all the body and structure you need for a cocktail base. One of the shortcomings of sake and cocktails is that it tends to be a little quiet and fall in the background, but this puppy is going to give you color, it’s going to give you body, it’s going give you sweetness. So this is a, this is a sake that I think would be a real star of the show when it comes to cocktails. So that was a really inspired idea.

John Puma: 29:42
Oh wow. I thank you, Tim. I appreciate that. Maybe that should have been my resolution. I’ll become a cocktail guy.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:48
cocktails. You, you, you have time to change your

John Puma: 29:51
No, no, no. We’re sticking to the pairing.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:53
All right.

John Puma: 29:55
So, Tim, this has been, uh, quite an educational start for the year. I’m excited. this has been a lot of fun. Is it, I hope this is the sign of things to come for the new year. Big fun, interesting episodes. Yeah, it’s a good time.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:08
Yeah, and we’ll have to commit to doing a few more rice episodes in the new year. I really like revisiting this topic and uh, yeah, it was great to taste with you, really fun sake to explore something unique. And I want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. And a special. Hello and thank you to all of our patrons. We are a listener supported show, and if you would like to support Sake revolution, one of the best ways to help us out is to join our Patreon. To learn more, visit patreon.com/Sakerevolution.

John Puma: 30:42
and did you know that at SakeRevolution.com. In addition to our show notes and all that other fun stuff, we’ve also got a link to our shop where you can find interesting swag, like t-shirts and stickers. The holidays may have passed, but you know, there’s still some gifts that you may need to get for la. Last minute person, they got you a gift and you didn’t get them a gift and like, oh my God, what am I gonna do? They love sake. Sake revolution shirt. There you go.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:04
And if you would like to learn more about this episode, please visit our show notes. We have a full description of each and every episode, uh, great transcription as well.

John Puma: 31:16
So, please raise your glass Remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai!