Episode 79 Show Notes

Episode 79. This week we pay another visit to the Sake Education Corner to focus on what is known as “roka” or fine particulate filtering. this can be done by both a activated carbon powder or by a micron filter. The sake industry is full of debate as to whether filtering strips all the personality out of sake, or provides a clarity for color and flavor. At the end of the day it is up to our palate and our preferences! To test the waters, we are sampling one “muroka” or non-charcoal filtered sake, and one standard filtered sake. The differences are subtle and interesting. What Brita does to our tap water, brewers also usually do to our sake as well. Join us as we focus on filtration for this week’s episode!

Skip to: 00:19 Hosts Welcome and Introduction
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy

Skip to: 01:15 Sake Education Corner: Roka

Roka means “charcoal filtering” for sake

Muroka means Sake that was not filtered

Suroka is sake that was micron filtered without activated carbom.

Does the Roka process strip character of sake? or make the color and flavor clean? the answer is up to you!

Skip to: 15:29 Sake Introductions

Skip to: 20:42 Sake Tasting: Wataribune 55 Junmai Ginjo

Wataribune 55 Junmai Ginjo

Brewery: Huchu Homare Brewery
Classification: Junmai Ginjo
Acidity: 1.5
Alcohol: 15.5%
Prefecture: Ibaraki
Seimaibuai: 55%
SMV: +3.0
Rice Type: Wataribune

View on UrbanSake.com: Wataribune 55 Junmai Ginjo

Purchase on TippsySake.com: Wataribune 55 Junmai Ginjo
NOTE: Use Discount Code “REVOLUTION” for 10% off your first order with Tippsy Sake.

Skip to: 25:04 Sake Tasting: Emishiki Sensation White Junmai

Emishiki Sensation White Junmai

Alcohol: 16.0%
Seimaibuai: 50%
Prefecture: Shiga
Brewery: Emishiki Shuzo
Importer: Mutual Trading (USA)
Classification: Junmai
Sake Name English: Sensation
Acidity: 1.6
SMV: -5.0
Brand: Emishiki Sensation

View on UrbanSake.com: Emishiki Sensation White Junmai

Skip to: 31:18 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

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Episode 79 Transcript

John Puma: 0:22
Hello everybody. And welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s very first sake podcast. I’m your host, John Puma from the Sake Notes. Also the administrator at the Internet Sake Discord and the, the local sake otaku in this here podcast.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:41
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m a sake educator and I’m also the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week John and I will be here tasting and also chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 1:01
what’s been going on w what do we, what do we want to talk about this week?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:06
Well, we haven’t been deep in the education corner for awhile. So I thought,

John Puma: 1:11
It’s got, it’s gotten a little dusty. Is that what you’re saying?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:15
well, I think, I think it might be fun too dive into a little education again this week. And there’s one subject that I noticed we haven’t talked about a lot on the show yet, and that is the subject of charcoal filter.

John Puma: 1:32
Um, yeah, it, it is not something we, I believe we, we very briefly, very briefly touched on it in our first, series on sake production, there were so many other things that we were talking about that I, I feel like we really didn’t go to too much depth on what exactly, filtering brings to the table and, and more of the options. Like what, what do you mean. sake filtering. Why, why?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:58
Yeah. And then even beyond that, there’s all this confusion between pressing and filtering. So when someone says filtering, a lot of people think of what we usually call pressing, which is, you know, we did a whole series on pressing, separating the alcohol from all that leftover rice, the main mash. So in sake parlance, we usually call that pressing or squeezing the mash and. Uh, step after that is what you just called filtering. And I usually call this charcoal filtering to be clear that we’re not talking about the pressing step, but a there’s a few variations on this filtering step and the type of sake you’re going to get out. The other end changes based on how you, or if you do this charcoal filter.

John Puma: 2:50
Hm. Okay. So, um, so, all right. So you mentioned there is charcoal filtering. Is there a special name for charcoal filter. or is that just the defacto at this point?

Timothy Sullivan: 3:01
well, the Japanese word for this is Roka, Roka,

John Puma: 3:05

Timothy Sullivan: 3:06
Roka. Um, that’s the filtering process and there’s a few different ways you can do it. And well, first we should talk about why you want to do it and.

John Puma: 3:17
That’s a good, that’s a good point. So, so we’ve got our sake, we pressed it. Why are we doing.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:23
Yeah. Well, there is very, very small particulate that is left in the sake after pressing. So when you press with one of those machines or you do the drip method or whichever one you’re doing. The sake is going through basically a fabric. And even if it has a tight weave, there’s little bits of little, tiny bits of rice and the microorganisms, the yeast, and any bacteria that might be in there can get through the enzymes can get through. And any other tiny little particulates that might be in there. So we have to deal with. Very very small, almost not visible to the naked eye particulate size. And you know, everyone has a Brita water filter at home. Right. A lot of people do. And if you break open one of those Brita filter, it’s like a capsule. Yeah. There’s like a, you buy these capsules that you rip it out a little plastic bag and you soak it in water. If you open that thing up, it’s filled with this dark powder, which is actually activated carbon or what, we can also call charcoal and it’s, it’s like going to. Capture that micro particles. So that’s it also does it in water when you use it like a Brita filter to charcoal, filter your water. doing basically the same thing with the sake after it’s been pressed.

John Puma: 4:54
And if I’m not mistaken, like when you first get your, when you first replace your Brita filter and they have you run water through it a little bit. You’re going to see those like little bits of that, of that charcoal coming out and that’s why they want you to flush it first. So that’s doesn’t actually get into your water. so it’s the same concept is what you’re telling me. It’s the same idea as what we see from, these filters that we use at home.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:18
Yeah. Same basic idea. And kind of two questions. How does it work? Like why, why charcoal and not peanut butter or, you know, like why, why charcoal?

John Puma: 5:28
Well, I feel like the peanut butter is going to lend some flavor. I like that you chose that as the option though.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:33
And the other as a why charcoal. And then, uh, what is the effect after you do it? If you skip it or you do it, what, how is it going to affect the outcome? So first let me just tell you briefly why activated carbon or this charcoal is used. If you were to take a microscope and zoom in really, really close to this material. It would have a lot of nooks and crannies. And I always think about like the surface of an English muffin, you know, like all those little pockets

John Puma: 6:06

Timothy Sullivan: 6:08
happens is when you put this material into a liquid and then filter it out, those little nooks and crannies capture and absorb little bits of rice and all those little particulates that we want to get out. So it’s a way to kind of absorb them and then filter them out. So it’s a very interesting process the way that this material actually gets those micro particles out of there.

John Puma: 6:36
Hm. That’s that? That is interesting. Okay. So, so we now know the, how, why, so you know, we, so we do this with our drinking water because we don’t trust. Tap water. So what is going on with the sake that has been meticulously, brewed and has been, really well taken care of every step of the way. Guys go back and listen to how many times do you wash the rice? why are we now going to filter it at the end, but with this product,

Timothy Sullivan: 7:12
Well, you can clarify the sake even more. There’s a debate in the sake industry, whether this charcoal filtering step is needed, if it’s necessary and if it improves the sake or detracts from the sake

John Puma: 7:27
Ooh. So there there’s still, this is still a debate. This is an ongoing.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:32
yeah, it’s an ongoing evolution. And. For people who like sake that is super crystal clear, like diamond, crystal clear, then you’re going to want to charcoal filter your sake pretty aggressively. And that is the style. For example, in Niigata light, clean, super crisp and sparkly, bright, clear, and other parts of Japan have a more rustic style and they might skip this charcoal filtering step. And that adds a little bit of extra dimension to the flavor, like all the, uh, very, very fine, super small particulate that you’ve got this hanging out in the sake and it adds a dimension to the flavor that you don’t have with the charcoal filtered version. So is that good? Is that bad? It’s all a question of where you’re coming from and what you want in your end product.

John Puma: 8:27
Um, so say if you perhaps wanted your sakes a style to be, I don’t know. A little crazy. You might want to, uh, add, add this additional factors, a little X factor of not fully filtering it to see what that brings to the table. And that is that, you know, how much has, does that really influence the flavor?

Timothy Sullivan: 8:51
Um, I think it’s subtle. it’s subtle. The particulates we’re talking about are super, super tiny to microscopic. So, uh, it it’s a subtle impact, I think, but one other reason to carefully charcoal filter your sake to do this Roca step is because there is a potential that you could get bacteria in there that could spoil your sake. So doing this step is also a little bit of insurance against the possibility that any stray bacteria got in there. And it’s a way to guard against. That type of spoilage in your sake, which is rare, but can happen.

John Puma: 9:36
I see. I see. So you’re adding kind of just a, you’re not taking any chances and you’re, you’re, you’re going to do this step. So. You know, the odds are of getting any kind of, uh, unwanted change. The flavor is reduced.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:51

John Puma: 9:52

Timothy Sullivan: 9:52
That’s right. And some breweries there’s, there’s kind of a third way as well. Some brewery. Do filter their sake, but they do it without the activated carbon or, or the charcoal that black powder. They just run their sakes through a physical micron filter. So that’s an

John Puma: 10:11
micron filter. What is, what exactly is that

Timothy Sullivan: 10:14
Well, it’s like a filter. Um, if you imagine like straining your pasta, when you pour out your pasta, you have a colander and.

John Puma: 10:24
a really great filter.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:26
The water goes through your colander, but imagine that the holes in your sieve that you were using were a few microns across,

John Puma: 10:36
Oh, all right. All right. That makes a little more sense then.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:39
So, um, some breweries just use a physical filter. Very, very, very small, but that also filters. Some of this particulate. So the traditional way to do it is with the, uh, putting the activated carbon powder in there. But you can also just run it through a physical filter as well. And you can also just skip this step altogether. So there’s like three, three ways you can go with this question of this micro particulate in your sake.

John Puma: 11:10
all right, so. Awesome. And, uh, that’s a lot.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:15

John Puma: 11:15
I totally get why we might do that. So we get why we might not do this. Um, and we talked about The name attached to the charcoal filtering what about when we’re not charcoal?

Timothy Sullivan: 11:28
Yeah. Well, if you’re not charcoal filtering, you skip that step, but it does impact what we call the sake that comes out of that process. So if you just press it and then go on with your production without the charcoal filtering, that’s called muroka. So we got the Roca in there, but it’s called.

John Puma: 11:48

Timothy Sullivan: 11:48
And if you use the physical filter without the charcoal powder, that’s called suroka,

John Puma: 11:54
pseudo. Suroka. So suroka is really tiny colander Um, and then we’ve got charcoal and then MUROKA, none of the above.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:07
Right. muroka is no fine particulate filtering at all. The default process is the charcoal filtering. So that’s just regular old sake. But if you skip the charcoal filtering, that type of sake is known as muroka. And if you do the physical filter without the charcoal powder, that is suroka.

John Puma: 12:28
uh, so we, so the default is just the charcoal filtering. I think that’s just big charcoal getting in there and influencing policy.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:39
Yeah, I actually, I heard a funny story about how this was all discovered how this came about, you know, adding Ash or carbon or charcoal to sake and then filtering it out. There’s this legendary story in the sake industry, that there was a sake kurabito, a sake brewery worker who was really unhappy with his job. And he was super mad at his employer. And to get back at him, he grabbed up some charcoal and he threw it into a VAT of finished sake and it turned pitch black. The sake turned black and. The brewers were like, oh my gosh, he ruined our sake. So they filtered it out and the sake came out even clearer than before. And they’re like, Hey, maybe something’s going on. So the legend in the sake industry is that this charcoal filtering is the results of a sabotage attempt by an angry brewery worker.

John Puma: 13:43
That’s pretty good. I liked the story. That’s pretty good. That is, uh, I like that one. That’s uh, that’s not bad. I hope it’s true. That sounds like it sounds great. I really want this to be a fact.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:55
Yeah. So John, you’ve heard muroka before, right?

John Puma: 13:58
Yes. uh, In my travels, I typically see the word, muroka accompanied very closely by the word nama. And I guess if you’re not pasteurizing your sake, you will probably a little less concerned about the bacteria that might get in there from not having a filtration process. And you want to be a little bit more raw. You want that, that, that variable in there. Uh, would you say that’s why they do it?

Timothy Sullivan: 14:25
Yeah. Nama means raw. Yeah. So he doesn’t make sense to. Really pasteurize and then strip all this additional layering of flavor out by doing the aggressive charcoal filtering. So muroka, Nama, and genshu often go together. Yeah.

John Puma: 14:48
that’s definitely, definitely a recipe for the crazy style.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:53
It can be, or, or it can also be subtle as well. There’s a few muroka flying under the radar that are muroka, but not advertise this such. So they’re out there.

John Puma: 15:06
we are out there. Well, I hope we have some examples of sakes that have, or have not been filtered today. This is great. Well, one way or the other, we’re going to get, you know, it’s going to, we’re going to cover it.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:21
Yeah. We’ve got a hundred percent chance of success.

John Puma: 15:24
absolutely. Tim, what did you bring today?

Timothy Sullivan: 15:29
Well, I picked up one of those under the radar murokas so the sake that I picked is. Not charcoal filtered. So it is a muroka and it’s also a Nama chozo. So it is once pasteurized only. So we’re not fully in the muroka Nama, but we’re half. We have one foot into the, the world of Nama. And, uh, the sake that I brought today is Wataribune 55 Junmai Ginjo

John Puma: 16:04
Ooh, that is a tasty sake, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:07
Oh, you’ve had it before.

John Puma: 16:08

Timothy Sullivan: 16:09
This is one of my all time. Favorite sakes. It is so good. Yes. So spoiler alert. I think I met a, like this.

John Puma: 16:22
I, uh, I’m a, little jealous. So for the people at home, this episode is actually being recorded via zoom. So I will not get to taste Tim’s delicious sake, uh, but Tim will also not get to taste my delicious sake. I’m going to mention where it is and then we’ll go in depth on each one really fast. So I brought the, um, Emishiki sensation. White label. Now this is a relatively new one to the states. It’s one of those aids that I’ve had in Japan and was very excited when I saw that it was a coming out for purchase here. I think right now it’s only on the west coast or the west coast people go out and get it if you, uh, if you, if you like what I had to say about it. but back to this. what’s Hardy Buena one of Tim’s favorite sakes uh, tell us a little about.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:09
Yeah, well, the brewery name is Huchu Homare Shuzo and the president is Takaaki Yamauchi and they’re located in Ibaraki. And there’s one really unique thing about the sake before we get into all the other stats is that the rice is called Wataribune. And this sake is named after the rice. They used to make it. Now this wataribune rice is basically rice that was extinct for a long time and fell out of common use. And Mr. Yamauchi. I was able to locate some seeds at the perfectional seed bank and restored this rice. And it took him three years to grow enough, to be able to make his first batch of sake using this rice. So this is a restored rice that was abandoned and he brought it back to life and it is. Now really well-known in Ibaraki-ken, and this sake is the sake that made that happen. So really cool story with the rice related to this. Uh, as I mentioned before, it’s a Junmai ginjo this watribune is polished down to 55% remaining. The sake meter value is plus three. The alcohol is 15.5. And as I mentioned, this is also a muroka and a Nama chozo. Yes. So, John, why don’t you tell us the stats for your emishiki?

John Puma: 18:51
So yes, the Emishiki sensation white. They have a couple of different types of these. They have the white, black and a couple of others, and this is a Junmai, emishiki also the name of the sake brewery itself. So it’s the, uh, brewery and it is in Shiga. This, uh, sake uses local rice. And it is milled down to 50% though. So you’re getting a, Junmai made with local rice, which usually like not, not a very fancy sake rice. Tim is that usually what happens when it’s, when it’s labeled as local rice, but they took it and milled it all the way down to 50, which I find very interesting and probably going to be a little different. Um, the nihonshudo that measure of dryness to sweetness is minus five. So I’m expecting some sweetness here and the acidity is 1.6.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:46
Well that sounds sensational.

John Puma: 19:50
Oh, I need a minute after that. That’s uh, oh.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:55

John Puma: 19:56
my first instinct would be age or something like that. So clarifying that saying, you know, it does not always mean that this could just be. You know, a little bit, a little bit more. Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:08
Yeah. If you leave sakes. On its own. If you run it through a press and just leave it alone and you look at it in a tank, it has quite a yellowish greenish color to it naturally. So when you see sakes, as I mentioned before, are super crystal clear. That is a strong indication that they’ve gone through all right. Well,

John Puma: 20:32
All right,

Timothy Sullivan: 20:33
let’s get to tasting.

John Puma: 20:34
Yeah. Since, since you’ve got the Well, you’ve got the muroka. Do you want to go first or who’s a control, I guess.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:42
I’ll go first. All right. So we have just a hint of color and that’s something that is important to talk about with muroka in particular, because those micro particles that are in sake at do not get charcoal filtered those cans. Discolor over time and they can lend just a wisp of color to a sake. So when you see a sake that has a little bit of a yellow or a golden haze to it, don’t assume automatically that it’s a light shocked or spoiled by overexposure to the sun or something like that. It can be that it’s a muroka style sake, and it has just a very, very small amount of fine particulate. And that can lend that. So I’m noticing that here just a little bit, very, very, very subtly. So I’m going to give this a. Hmm, that’s a fruity bright, really lovely aroma. There’s some melon going on a little bit of peach as well, and just really lovely, not much rice aroma. I’m mainly focusing on the fruity aspects. Um, but good depth, not too weak and really engaged. So very, very beautiful. And let’s give it a taste. Mm Hmm. Okay. So this has a really nice round melon flavor on the, on the palate. Beautiful finish and the texture. So silky smooth. This is, uh, so drinkable, so approachable, really food friendly. And, I think for those of you that have the John Puma style palate, and you want that sake to relax on the couch with, I think we found another candidate, John.

John Puma: 23:00
Uh, that’s that’s, that’s my wheelhouse. That’s the format.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:03
Yup. Isn’t it ironic that I ended up with this muroka. yeah, normally, I mean, I’m all about Niigata sake super clean, and those are all charcoal filtered up the wazoo. So this is a different vector for me. This is a different style of sake than my usual go-to, but I love it. It is

John Puma: 23:29
A different, style of than usual go-to or 10 months into the year, everybody and Tim still going outside of his comfort zone.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:38
I’m going out of my comfort zone with this fruity silky smooth

John Puma: 23:44
Well, you know, muroka, that’s about it. I didn’t say it was very far from your comfort zone just slightly, you know, I was slightly outside.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:53
I can see my comfort zone from here.

John Puma: 23:55
Yes. Yes.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:58
Yeah. So, oh my gosh. This is a crowd pleaser. This is so easy to enjoy. and just really, really nice, a beautiful junmai ginjo. And it just goes to show you, I think if I blind tasted this sake, I would say, oh, this has to be Yamada Nishiki or something like that, because that rice is traditionally used for this type of really, uh, fruity and engaging flavor. Uh, but wataribune is the curve ball here that rice that has been brought back from thebrink. And a really delicious, and I did get a chance to visit this brewery. And, uh, this was over 10 years ago

John Puma: 24:38
But of course you have.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:39
I met with, um, I met with the presidents and, uh, it was, it’s a beautiful place, very, very old building as well. And, uh, just a great dedication to the production that they do there. So if you get a chance, you gotta try this wataribune. All right. So that ties it up for me, John, you ready to give yours ataste?

John Puma: 25:04
I am ready to, to open up the Emishiki sensation, the white label. All right. Oh, look at that. It’s crystal clear. The Roca process works. Ladies and gentlemen, And the nose has some white wine like that. That white wine acidity almost. Uh, so the flavor here, not quite the, the melon bomb that you’ve got going on over there, but there is a nice amount of fruit here and I’m not sip. Hm. It’s nice and soft and round is a really nice acidity on the finish that I really enjoy. It’s a, it’s a nice gentle kind of, you know, relaxing sake. This, this can also have a place on the couch. I’m

Timothy Sullivan: 26:07
You’re not going to kick it off the couch.

John Puma: 26:08
not going to kick us off the couch. I can, I can sip some of this on my couch. but it is, it is just really. Soft and light. And then that little acidity bite at the end, it’s really like a nice little, journey. has like a, a brightness to it, I guess, from that

Timothy Sullivan: 26:24
Hmm. Yeah. What about the sweetness? The residual sugar.

John Puma: 26:30
until you reminded me, I forgot that that this is a minus

Timothy Sullivan: 26:34
Minus five.

John Puma: 26:37
I think that, you know, we see that minus five and that’s, technically exactly what the, density of the sake reflects, but, you know, it’s balanced in such a way that it’s not, it’s not really sweet or at least it’s not presenting as really sweet to me. Here’s like a hint of sweetness in here. It’s very nice, but it’s not, That noticeable.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:01
Yeah, well, that just goes to show you. You can’t go all in. You can’t bet the house on that SMV number. You know, it’s one factor. It measures the density of the sake. It’s one factor that could help you zero in, on a possible sweetness or dryness profile, but there’s other factors that play a role. So you can’t always rely on that number. So this is a really good case in point for that. know, what’s interesting like you and I both tasted our sakes and we did not talk about the sweetness or dryness out of the gate.

John Puma: 27:37

Timothy Sullivan: 27:38
That means it’s in balanced between sweet and dry. And going back to my sake for a second, I feel that that is totally the case. You know, you, it’s not coming off as sweet or dry. It’s a perfect blend of the two. So that aspect of the sake, when you taste, it just doesn’t jump out at you. For me, the texture is much more prominent texture, super silky, and you know, really, really. Smooth then that makes a great first impression and the flavor profile, the fruitiness is also something that jumps out. So when you’re tasting sake, there’s going to be those things that don’t jump out at you, but you always want to make a point to think about those as well. They could just be so in balance or so in the background that you may not notice.

John Puma: 28:25
Yeah. And that was, like you mentioned, exactly what happened with me is. I just completely forgot that this was supposed to be quote unquote sweet,

Timothy Sullivan: 28:35
I was on the, I was on the edge of my seat waiting.

John Puma: 28:38
it’s just, it’s not, it’s, it’s just, it’s well balanced. It’s really good stuff. And I think that’s like one of the challenges of crafting really good sake is having that balance and that that’s where all the years of knowledge payoff. That’s where you’re working.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:54
Yeah. Yeah, it’s true. And we don’t want to say that a sake that’s overtly dry or really, really sweet is a bad sake, not at

John Puma: 29:01
No, no, no.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:02
but those are crafted to be that way on purpose. And this one is aiming to highlight another part of the sake or yours is aiming to highlight a different part of the sake. And so they’re going really integrated and really balanced with that residual.

John Puma: 29:17

Timothy Sullivan: 29:17
So charcoal filtering is a subtle step. I think we can agree on that.

John Puma: 29:23
Yes, influence wise. I don’t think it’s nearly as overt as a lot of the other factors like Nama I think it’s a little more like when we talked about genshu and against you brings some subtle changes to a sake depending on what the Brewer’s intent was. that Is, uh, is how I’m viewing the muroka versus Roca debate.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:43
So where do you fall in this great muroka debate? Are you a charcoal filter guy or are you a, uh, skip it

John Puma: 29:52
Well, well, in my, when it comes to my water, I’m definitely a charcoal filter guy. Um, having said that when it comes to my sake, it really just depends on the sake. Like, I think that with a skilled brewer, you’re going to get. outcome that they’re looking to get, and you’re gonna have a great time either way. You know, I think that, I don’t think there’s a, there’s a clear answer to like, oh, like muroka is clearly, you know, superior. Just like, there’s no answer on like, you know, well, not everything should be a nama that makes different different styles, make different flavors. And I want to have all of these different flavors and experience at all.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:32
That’s a very diplomatic answer. Have you ever thought about politics

John Puma: 30:36
I. I just want to experience a whole lot of different don’t think, it was, I don’t think that was entirely diplomatic, but, uh, just in case I do just in case I do want to get into politics. Tim, what do you think? Is it turn the question around that’s politics?

Timothy Sullivan: 30:54

John Puma: 30:56
Ah, damn.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:58
Yeah, no, I couldn’t agree with you more. I think that, uh, variety’s the spice of life when it comes to sake and we want some super, super clear some, a little more depth of flavor and the more varieties the better, I think that’s the way to go.

John Puma: 31:17

Timothy Sullivan: 31:18
John, it was super fun tasting with you again, sorry to, uh, have one of your favorite sake styles in front of me and you not being able to taste it, but the shoes going to be on the other foot before, you know, it.

John Puma: 31:30
Yeah. Yeah. If you didn’t save some for me and we’ll, uh, we’ll exchange I’ll, I’ll let you have some of my, and you let me have some That wataribune and we’ll call it even.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:39
That is a deal. All right. Well, thanks so much. And I want to also thank our listeners for tuning in. We really do hope that you’re enjoying our show. If you’d like to show your support for sake revolution, one really great way to help us out is to back us on patreon. We are a listener supported show and all the monies we receive from our Patreon supporters help us defray all the costs that go into producing. Editing and getting a podcast out there each and every week.

John Puma: 32:09
That is right. we do appreciate each and every one of you out there. Um, everybody who donates everybody who listens, everybody who tells their friends and leaves us a rating on. ITunes or their podcast platform of choice. All these things really do make a difference and it does really help us. And we also like, we like to you guys, like to listen to our show and listen to our, our banter right. Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 32:36

John Puma: 32:37

Timothy Sullivan: 32:38
And as always, if you would like to learn more about any of the topics or the sakes we talked about in today’s episode, be sure to visit our website, SakeRevolution.com for all the detailed show notes.

John Puma: 32:52
We know for a fact that you have sake questions that you need to have answered. And we have an email address that we would like you to send those questions to, it helps us get ideas for episodes and stuff like that. And it’s a lot of fun that email address is [email protected]. So until next time, please remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai.