Episode 28 Show Notes
Season 1. Episode 28. This is the first in a new series of interviews with U.S. sake brewers. There are few things more fun for a sake fan, than to sit down and drink a delicious sake with the people who actually brewed it. For our first brewer interview, we don’t stray too far from home. We had a great time talking to our friends Brian Polen and Brandon Doughan of New York’s Brooklyn Kura. We hear a bit about how Brooklyn Kura came to be and some of the advantages and disadvantages of brewing sake in the Big City. Also, we explore the learning curve of being the first to open a brewery in New York. As far as tasting goes, we get to enjoy two of Brooklyn Kura’s stand out creations, the #14 Junmai Ginjo Nama and their Catskills Junmai Daiginjo. Join us for this fun interview with New York’s first sake Brewery, Brooklyn Kura.
Skip to: 00:19
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy
Contact Brian and Brandon:
Shop Brooklyn Kura Sakes and their Kura Kin Subscription Service:
John and Timothy introduce their sakes for this week.
Brooklyn Kura Catskills Junmai Daiginjo
Brewery: Brooklyn Kura
Classification: Junmai Daiginjo
Prefecture: US – New York
Rice: U.S. Yamadanishiki
Brand: Brooklyn Kura
Where to buy?
Brooklyn Kura #14 Junmai Ginjo Nama
Brewery: Brooklyn Kura
Classification: Junmai Ginjo Nama
Distributor: Vine Connections
Prefecture: US – New York
Rice Type: Yamadanishiki, Calrose
Seimaibuai: 60%, 50%
Brand: Brooklyn Kura
Where to buy?
This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!
Episode 28 Transcript
John Puma: 0:22
Hello, and welcome to Sake Revolution. America’s first sake podcast. I’m your host, John Puma from thesakenotes.com. Also the administrator at the internet sake discord and our resident sake nerd.
Timothy Sullivan: 0:35
And I’m your host Timothy Sullivan. I’m a sake samurai sake educator, as well as the founder of the UrbanSake website and together John and I will be tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.
John Puma: 0:49
Today folks, we’re going to be kicking off a new series of shows where we’re going to be talking to American Sake brewers.
Timothy Sullivan: 0:56
Yes, I am super excited. And for our first us brewers, we’re not going very far.
John Puma: 1:02
not at all.
Timothy Sullivan: 1:02
we are lucky to have Brandon and Brian from new York’s own Brooklyn Kura with us today, guys. Great to have you here. How you doing?
Brian Polen: 1:09
John Puma: 1:13
So, Tim and I know you pretty well, but, for the listeners at home, why don’t you each give a little bit of a brief introduction so that they all know who you are.
Brandon Doughan: 1:22
I’m Brandon Doughan. I’m the master brewer at Brooklyn Kura. Brian and I met do the whole background story right now, Brian and I met. Um, I don’t know how many years ago?
Brian Polen: 1:35
Brandon Doughan: 1:36
2013. 13. I’m at a mutual friend’s wedding. in Japan and yeah, it’s part of our trip. We travel around who had like really great first ,introduction to Japan., and we went into like a real traditional sake brewery. and it had kind of a big impact on us. and personally, I come from a research science background. I’ve always had an interest in fermentation. I was living in Portland, Oregon, and Brian’s here in Brooklyn. and we most started brewing sake at home. and it like just, we caught the bug and, that’s maybe a hard thing to say these days…
John Puma: 2:15
Brandon Doughan: 2:18
But we’ve got a big interest in it. And, like started fantasizing about starting a sake brewery and it’s slowly turned into a reality, I guess.
John Puma: 2:26
Nice. And Brian…
Brian Polen: 2:28
I’m Brian Polen and I’m the president of Brooklyn Kura. My background really is in analytics, data science. before this, I worked for many years at a company, that many of you may know American Express, where i did a range of different things. I think for me, After meeting Brandon and spending the time that we did to independently like fall for the production of sake. the idea of building a business that had something so special and historic at the center of it, was part of, I think that romance that Brandon just described that we had. it was a very easy transition from corporate America to doing something that. I think as exciting though, practically challenging as what we’re doing right now.
Brandon Doughan: 3:14
Yeah. I mean, it was easy, but we were terrified
Brian Polen: 3:18
and we still are. I still am.
Timothy Sullivan: 3:21
Great. Well, you know, it is. So fantastic to have you guys and your sake brewery here in New York city, but off the bat, I wanted to ask you, what do you think are some of the advantages and disadvantages for brewing sake in a big city, like New York city or Brooklyn?
Brian Polen: 3:40
So back to our earlier statement, it’s not easy to leave. What are arguably. Professional success stories to do something like this and New York City is one of those places that really has the size scale, kind of the, the type of consumers, the access to a supply chain that’s necessary for any manufacturing. And so, I mean, just ,as a first impression, if you’re going to make something somewhere, that’s focused on a local audience. And that’s something you want to achieve a certain scale in New York City or like a larger open environment is a great place to choose. And so for us, it was a great marketplace that was really gonna test us and afford us the ability to go to a scale where we could actually live comfortably and do this thing that we were excited about. And then when Brandon moved out from Portland, ,we had to do a lot of more detailed assessments. So yeah, the markets aren’t yet in New York, city’s attractive yet. There’s a bunch of restaurants and an industry folk that we can start working with and getting excited about what we’re doing. But then we have to learn things like, where does our supply. chain come from? So I’m like, how are we going to deal with the water? These basic building blocks, of actually having an operating brewery took us some additional time. I think what I’d say is when we talk about the production process, maybe we can talk more about those ingredients and how they relate to New York City. but as far as a place to kind of cut your teeth as a small brewery in a historic or traditional kind of industry like sake production, there is no better place. I mean, the caliber of consumers The skill and interest level of the frontline folks at retailers and restaurants are in my mind comparable to no other place. And so in order for us to be successful, we had to work with them and get them excited about what we were doing, which allowed our success. It’s almost grow more rapidly and authentically, then we could have ever expected.
Timothy Sullivan: 5:36
Yeah, what you just said made me think about, ,stepping out myself in a career in sake There was no one. I really had a model in New York or in the U S really to say like, Oh, this is how you do it. You guys are setting up the first brewery in New York. And it’s great because you have freedom. You can do what you want, but you kind of have to invent it for yourselves. Right?
Brandon Doughan: 5:56
Yeah. Like one of the positive aspects of being in New York. Cause people like you. but the fact that there’s like decibel, which is been around for one 25 years, a, like an underground sake bar. There’s already sake culture here. I mean, it’s New York city, so it’s cosmopolitan. so that base community, I think helped us quite a bit.
Brian Polen: 6:17
And, you know, everything’s about credibility in this industry. we want to be decent people. We want to make something that people are excited about, but as we work with you and John and the broader community in New York, we get ties to other places, but like most notably Japan and we start to get the advocacy and support of Japanese producers. And, I don’t want to limit it to producers. Cause it’s not just producers. It’s distributors. It’s. so wholesalers retailers it’s like the whole life cycle. and that’s mostly because of the folks who were able to find and spend time with them, but friend in the industry, in New York.
John Puma: 6:53
It definitely seems like it was a big help. so sake is, always developing stuff. Sake’s always changing flavor profiles are always being modified. Do you see the U S. developing their own style, outside of what the Japanese path has been and continues to be.
Brandon Doughan: 7:10
Yeah. I mean, I’ve always said that I think there’s a real broad spectrum and outside of Japan in general, it’s like brewing Sake, outside of Japan is pretty new. There’s some people who’ve kind of pioneered it and maybe they’ve got a couple of decades under their belt. but in the U S specifically there’s a wide range of people. We’ve always stuck with the more traditional methods and then try to. introduce people who have never had sake and we want them to have a good base of something to try. So we’ve tried to be real traditional. but that said, there’s other people in the United States doing kind of radical things and kind of way out there that maybe wouldn’t be considered nihonshu in Japan. but I think that’s a good thing. Sometimes a United States takes things from other cultures and messes them up. Some kind of you get California merlot and you get an American IPA, which anywhere around the world. and I think that process, the United States it’s happening right now. It’s kind of like, it’s the wild West and things are happening. And so we’re in the infancy, but we’re going to see what becomes the American sake.
Timothy Sullivan: 8:24
So you think that’s something that’s still evolving?
Brandon Doughan: 8:27
Brian Polen: 8:29
I think there’s some practical challenges, right? I mean, we, we have to have a marketplace for our sake and like in New York, as we were discussing before, It’s a very traditional set of consumers of sake, right? Like the restaurants that we work with are looking for kind of sake that has some authenticity and, or is more comparable to what would be imported from Japan. And so for us, we also have that practical constraint. but also there’s this like proof of skill, right. That is like essential to achieve in credibility. So for us as Brooklyn Kura, as we position ourselves as caring about the craft and the history, but trying to do something kind of innovative, we need to be able to make sakes that consumers that are familiar with sake and expert in it, can come to and say, wow, this is a beautiful example of Junmai Ginjo and this is a beautiful example of a Junmai Daiginjo. And once you establish that credibility, then like the opportunity to be creative. And push the envelope is one of those things that like, we’re starting to be afforded, which is a pretty remarkable thing. That’s this early. So, the broader marketplace is a range of different skills in the new sake trade. like you have the traditional producers in California that invested a lot in infrastructure that we get to use to make our lives easier and our product more affordable. And then you have new guys that are coming up every six months that are putting their own twist on sake. will it net out? My perspective is not necessarily, but I think some delicious things that motivate people to buy, sake both domestically produced and produced in Japan is definitely going to happen.
Timothy Sullivan: 10:09
when I talked to the Japanese brewers in Japan, sometimes they say they have a vision for the future of sake becoming a world beverage and being enjoyed and produced all over the country. And what you guys are doing is definitely a link in that chain, do you have that same dream? Do you envision, sake Becoming a world beverage, like wine or beer, that’s produced all around the world and people know it is that some, is that a dream that you guys share?
Brandon Doughan: 10:33
I think we’re seeing the trend happen. like when Brian and I first got into this, it seems like it was very new to us. And like, we were kind of sussing out the scene and we determined, who’s already making sake in the U S and since we’re young, but since we started, we get contacted by so many more people. Now, like we can tell there’s a wave happening. it’s not just the U S we’re aware of people around the world that either like opening sake, breweries, or sake shops, and we get contacted all the time from people who are interested, in like, okay, like here’s some resources. here’s like some of the things you should try and figure out, like everything we’ve learned so far. and like, 50% of those people come back with like I’m into this and maybe another 50% of those people like really kind of get it going. And I think in the next few years we’re going to see this is becoming a thing. And I think we’re going to start seeing that happen.
John Puma: 11:35
So, Brewing sake in the U S has some challenges, like you mentioned earlier, and you have sometimes limitations on what you can work with and such like that. But I want to know, like, what’s the, what’s your kind of dream project with regard to sake. What’s like the sake you want to make, if you, if there was no, if there was like, while I can’t get this rice or I can’t get this yeast, forget all about that. I want to know what’s the, what would be the fun thing for you to make?
Brandon Doughan: 11:58
I think the biggest thing there’s, there’s no constraints. like I said, we are locked into kind of a traditional path but it’s just fun to see what’s happening, what rice is, what sakemai as available United States? what new thing comes up, like what piece of equipment that we can get here, affordably? can we obtain now and what happens when we use it? so it’s like, it’s a giant experiment and you learn things and you keep those techniques and you keep those methods and you improve upon them. but this is going to be a continuous learning process for us and everybody else starting a sake brewery, outside of Japan, probably in Japan. So, like I’m not personally locked into any one thing that we want. I do. we want to make sure that. People are enjoying what we’re doing. we want to make sure that people are excited about it and that we’re continuing education about sake. and I think we’re doing okay on that path.
John Puma: 12:56
So this is that point in our show where we liked to take out the sake and start sipping. actually first we start talking, then we start sipping in my head, I go straight to the sipping part. but since we actually have the creators of the sake, with us today, we’re going to actually lean on you guys a little bit to intro what we’re going to be sipping.
Timothy Sullivan: 13:18
Yeah. So the first sake that I have in front of me here is a Brooklyn, Kura Catskills. So why don’t you give our listeners a rundown of the sake Just give it a quick intro. And then, we’ll do John’s and then we’ll start tasting both of them.
Brandon Doughan: 13:35
Catskills Daiginjo is, it’s actually our second time making daiginjo, the first time we made Daiginjo, it was a collaboration with Nanbu Bijin. We had both Tojis from Nanbu Bijin and come out. we didn’t want to try making a Daiginjo right off the bat. we wanted to get some things under our belt first. so we had, uh, those Tojis come out and together in Brooklyn we made a Daiginjo, like a limited edition, that went really well and a lot of people enjoyed it. So based on that, we started putting out our own Daiginjo. and so it is, um, California yamadanishiki. It’s milled to 50%. it’s got a modern yeast, and it’s got a long slow fermentation, and we’re pretty happy. It turned out really well.
Timothy Sullivan: 14:25
Excellent. So John, why don’t you, uh, tell them what you have to try.
John Puma: 14:29
Unlike fancy Tim and his Daiginjo I have the classic, the number 14. please tell our viewers.. no.., tell our listeners a little bit about that
Brandon Doughan: 14:41
They can, they can see in their minds paint a picture. So number 14 is the name comes from when we, before we had our space and we had sort of like a practice space of, of like trying to suss out all the yeah. Different rice options we had and like, and recipes. the 14th batch like turned out really well, so we kinda went with that. this is kind of typical of a lot of the sakes we make and that the kome Koji, the rice that we grow Koji on is almost always Yamadanishiki. And the reason for that is because, the access we have to like the literature and textbooks and stuff. it’s that kind of rice. so we grow our Koji on Yamana Nishiki, from California, and then the kakemai or the rest of the rice, is Calrose, milled to fifty percent. that’s kind of the recipe basis for number 14 and it’s also like it follows a. A ginjo-type temperature profile for the whole fermentation and it lasts about 30 days. and it’s a Nama Nama. so it’s like what kind of fresh and young tasting. it evolves over time. and it’s like, it’s very fruity and delicious.
John Puma: 15:56
Hmm. So, uh, Tim, uh, since you’ve got the the very fancy sake Why don’t you to go
Timothy Sullivan: 16:07
All right. So I’ve got the Catskills. In the glass and the name Catskills. Where does that come from?
Brandon Doughan: 16:16
Catskills is how New York city gets its water. Water’s a very important part of one of the four ingredients of Junmai sake and then I was going to say, when I move, when Brian had decided to do this, and I was in Portland, Oregon, which has fantastic water and I was coming to New York city. I thought we would have to reverse osmosis the water, um, and like heavily treat it. It turns out Brooklyn water is fantastic and it’s very good for sake So.
Timothy Sullivan: 16:44
Hmm. I’m giving it a smell and it smells very fresh. It reminds me of, a little bit of fresh cut grass and Melon, and it has these wonderful, soft, fresh aromas to it. Very gentle and, just absolutely lovely, but the fruit components in the aroma are soft and rounded. nothing sharp and, just lovely, Daiginjo style, fruity aroma. Really, really nice. I’m going to give it a taste. Yes. Very smooth. So what did you do to achieve this silky body on this sake because it’s very, very silky and smooth.
Brandon Doughan: 17:27
I think that’s just, it’s mostly our ingredients. I’ll say this, it has a pretty high, Mizu-Buai so it has like a, a larger amount of water added to the recipe. then say maybe a Junmai. You might like, keep the Moromi the mash of rice, like really thick but this one, we start off with kind of a lot of water and then we’ve followed the graphs that we follow and to make sure we add water when we need to, I think that like contributes, like you’re really getting kind of the, the Brooklyn water aspect of it.
Timothy Sullivan: 18:03
Uh, Brian, when you bring a sake like this out into the market, and you’re talking to restaurant owners and chefs, where do you position and what aspects of this sake do you, mention and bring out to fit this into menus and introduce this to people?
Brian Polen: 18:19
I think my favorite thing, when I do go to speak to people about our is having a range of. Our offerings. Right? And so everything’s in context. and what that allows me to do is to not only represent the kind of many great things that we make, but also to gauge what the individual I’m speaking to is most interested in. we have a lot of information about the people we’re talking to before talking to them, but also in the context, when you’re presenting it to them to get a sense of who’s going to be interested in something like our Catskills. the Catskills is delicious. not only is it packaged well and beautiful, but the juice is good. And so it really becomes a function of fit. So I don’t. Try and sell the Catskills. What I tend to do is work with whomever. We’re a I’m out with, if, whether it be our distributors or like in broader forums and, and kind of get a sense of who’s interested in it. because it’s so delicious and because it fits in well, both as a, by the glass beverage, but also in the context of nice pairings, it’s a really relatively simple conversations when people want to pick up something that they’re excited about and it’s beautiful. and for daiginjo, they want something that’s really focused and pure tasting. and so I think we achieved that with the Catskills. And as I mentioned, I think it sells itself.
Timothy Sullivan: 19:51
one note I want to mention as a final thought on this Catskills sake for our listeners is that I’ve been. investigating and studying sake for 15 years and to be sitting here drinking a premium Junmai daiginjo sake made in Brooklyn that people need to understand that even just a few years ago, the idea of having a delicious ultra premium Jumai daiginjo American made. It just wasn’t done before. So having this as just such a treat and such a step forward for the us sake brewery industry, I think so congratulations to you guys for doing that. I’m the lucky, lucky guy that gets to drink this today but I just wanted to acknowledge that having such a beautiful Junmai Daiginjo made in Brooklyn, uh, having access to that is a real achievement. So congratulations.
Brandon Doughan: 20:46
Thanks. It means a lot,
Brian Polen: 20:48
You know, it gets back to this. Desire to spread the gospel of sake. and the daiginjo is a great opportunity, but we really do want a range of affordability. We want a range of flavor profiles. We want to prove skill, but also make sure that whoever we’re sitting across from and sharing what we’re doing with, sees our level of excitement and is excited about something we’re doing. Whether it’s the Catskills or not. it’s just easy with the Catskills cause it’s delicious.
Timothy Sullivan: 21:20
All right. Well that. Tells us quite a bit about the delicious Catskills, Junmai Daiginjo so John, why don’t we head over to you? And you can look at that number 14.
John Puma: 21:30
Ah, yes. So, I have a little bit of a history with this sake. I think it was like, one of the first batches I had of theirs or close to it.
Brian Polen: 21:57
That is a nice sound,
John Puma: 22:02
so after I pour this, I start to. Look for aroma that it’s, I don’t have to look very hard cause there’s a very, very big fruity bouquet on this lots of Melon. Like Tim mentioned about the Catskills, although it’s less subtle about it. I want to say it’s a lot more in your face about the melon, which suits me just fine. I like big fruity bouquets on my sake and that balances nicely with the flavor, which is the same thing. It’s got that nice free run-through, uh, tropical fruit on this. A tiny bit of Apple, if you let it linger for a moment. And this was, this is a sake that when I had it in a blind tasting originally I 100% thought I knew exactly what it was. And. And that it was a Japanese sake that I knew very well. And I was completely surprised when I found out I was completely
Brian Polen: 23:01
one thing that I’d say about our nama, so back to this. Kind of regionality the kind of local offerings that we’re able to present to people in the New York city community. I mean, the number 14 in our blue door our junmai nama I can’t tell you how proud I am. We are of those sakes because they really are the first impression many of our customers have of what we do in the brewery. And they’re really intended to be very different, but very approachable sakes they’re the types of sakes that in my mind are anyone second you’ll find experienced sake drinker picks up and pours for themselves and it’s like, wow. I either want to drink more of sake or I know why I’m passionate about sake on the extremes. and so the number 14 is our best selling sake and I think that’s primarily because of how approachable. It is and how it independent of food or in many different contexts, whether it’s like an American restaurant or it’s at a barbecue, right? or at a, you’re a traditional kaiseki meal. I mean, it, it can shine. and part of that is also. the nama quality, which the blue door also has that freshness, richness, texture, almost effervescent, that we’re fortunate to be able to provide to a New York city,
John Puma: 24:24
yeah, this is I guess a lot, like, I want to say on our live. show recently I was drinking, the Ryujin, the dragon God, ginjo and I mentioned how that being so fruit-forward and approachable made it a go to when I’m introducing new people to sake And I think that the number 14 has a very similar, very approachable, very much. You can put this as far as somebody who’s never had sake before or, or thinks they might have and change their conception of it or produce a really great impression, a really great first impression.
Brandon Doughan: 24:55
Yeah, Nama Nama, the pasteurized sake is a challenge. and that you’ve got to be like hyper clean with it. If you’re going to put it in a bottle and send it out to in another state terrifies me, but we do a lot of like fine filtration then. And we like give it the best treatment we can to get it in a bottle. But here’s the thing about pasteurizing sake When you pasteurize, you are making sure there’s no residual yeast or bacteria in it. But you’re also denaturing the enzymes That’s how sake is different from beer and wine. It’s like the enzymes keep going. and so, a nama nama will continue to evolve pretty quickly dependent on the temperature it’s kept at. So you can get a bottle of a, uh,bluedoor our Junmai or number 14 ,our nama nama ginjo And experience the freshness, of a nama nama right away. But you can also put it up on the shelf and see what happens. It goes through some really interesting phases, We’ll eventually get pretty weird. We’ve come to realize that there is like a whole class of people that just want that they want these like aged Nama. Namas. they want to put them on their shelf and like at room temperature after they’ve opened them and see what happens. So, it’s interesting and fun.
John Puma: 26:17
I think I married one of those people.
Timothy Sullivan: 26:22
John Puma: 26:25
Timothy Sullivan: 26:28
All right. Well, I bet a lot of people listening right now are asking themselves, how can I get some Brooklyn Kura for myself? Why don’t you guys let us know the best way to get in touch with you? And if people want to try these sakes what is the the best way to get their hands on them?
Brian Polen: 26:43
I mean first and foremost, they can email either of us, anytime [email protected] [email protected], we definitely are responsive and excited to talk to people about sake more formally. I mean, we, we just in July launched a new website, that website has. All our sakes that are available in the moment, and across a number of different States, and we also have, and this new subscription service. So one thing that we’re really excited about, it’s like, okay, the world is changing our market. Unfortunately from a distribution perspective is shrinking. How do we keep innovating and doing creative things for the people who care most about them? and so we launched KuraKin, which is an opportunity for us to just make small batch sake sake is that we wouldn’t necessarily make for broader distribution. Are making larger quantities, and get people excited about, see the variation taste and variation provide constructive, positive and sometimes like negative feedback. Also, we can continue to develop ourselves as Brookly Kura, but also how we make sake So online, you have, KuraKin, which is an awesome way to get to know us better and also see what they’re doing that we’re really excited about. And then also if you want to do direct, you can order any time online. We also have a beautiful Tap Room and it really is our best mechanism for outreach. It’s a place where we are focused just on education and the joy of drinking sake and making you comfortable doing that. And so our taproom has been used for many different things, whether it be. Like private tastings, a Michelin star chef dinners, et cetera, but really at its core, it’s about making you comfortable and excited about sake as a category. And so you can come there Friday through Sunday. and you can contact us anytime if you want to come on and off cycle and you can make it during the weekend. but, but yes, our team there is very talented and equally passionate. And they’re going to answer all your questions about sake including what we produce, but also other sakes I think the last place, I mean, reach out to us. if you have any questions, Brandon mentioned this earlier, we get contacted by people thinking about starting a sake brewery in the process of pressing their first batch at an established, sake brewery. all with questions about the things that we’re doing, why we’re doing, how we came to this point in our process, um, whether it’s regulatory to production, right? We’re happy to answer the questions that people have to meet that goal of spreading the love of sake and get more people drinking it.
Brandon Doughan: 29:16
Yeah. We want sake to be a thing. So
John Puma: 29:20
you guys definitely helped make it a thing but yeah, we want to see it grow as well. It’s been great to see you guys
Timothy Sullivan: 29:25
Yeah, thank you so much for being here. We’ll have all that information of how to get in touch with Brian and Brandon in our show notes. And we want to thank them so much for joining us on our first episode with a brewer interview and tasting. Thank you guys so much.
Brandon Doughan: 29:39
Brian Polen: 29:41
Thank you guys for all the work you do. It’s really, it’s really wonderful.
Timothy Sullivan: 29:44
Well, I want to thank all of our listeners so much for tuning in. We really hope you’re enjoying our show. If you’d like to show your support for sake revolution, one way you can really help us out would be to take a couple of minutes and leave us a written review on Apple podcasts. It’s one of the best ways for us to get the word out about our show.
John Puma: 30:01
And the second best way is for you to tell a friend and then get that friend to subscribe. And then while you’re doing that, you go and subscribe also this way, you and your friend, both we’ll get our podcast magically delivered to your device of choice every week when we publish.
Timothy Sullivan: 30:20
And as always to learn more about any of the topics or any of the sakes we talked about in today’s episode, be sure to visit our show notes at SakeRevolution.com
John Puma: 30:31
And if you have a a burning sake question that you need answered, or maybe a episode suggestion, Tim, we’ve got a couple of those that we’re going to talk about in the future. we want you to reach out to us at [email protected] so until next time, please remember, keep drinking all and that sake. And above all, Kanpai