Episode 57 Show Notes

Episode 57. Our Shubo series continues! Shubo of course is the “fermentation starter” step of sake production. Whichever the method, we use lactic acid to give the shubo a jump start and allow the sake yeast to live its best life. This week, we look at the Kimoto method. Kimoto is the O.G. method that has been the default for centuries. By definition, it involves the mashing of rice, rice koji and water together in a low tub, into a paste using long poles in a step known as “yamaoroshi.” Then over the next two weeks or so, lactic acid bacteria in the mash slowly and naturally creates lactic acid which eventually kills off any ambient microbes, wild yeast or other unwanted microorganisms. When the sake yeast is introduced, it can thrive uninhibited and go on to do it’s sake making work. Kimoto is no longer used that much – only about 1% of sake made today uses this historically important starter method. Be sure to give kimoto a try if you see it – it’s a sake that will connect you with centuries of sake making in just one sip. Let’s go!


Skip to: 00:19 Hosts Welcome and Introduction
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy


Skip to: 01:23 Sake Education Corner: Kimoto Shubo

Kimoto Shubo production at Daishichi.
Photo © Daishichi
Kimoto rice and water mashing at Daishichi.
Photo © Daishichi

Moto-suri Uta -Kimoto Yeast Starter Song:


Skip to: 1636 Sake Introductions


Skip to: 21:08 Daichishi Raden Junmai Ginjo Kimoto

Daichishi Raden Junmai Ginjo Kimoto


Brewery: Daishichi Brewery
Classification: Kimoto Junmai Ginjo
Acidity: 1.5
Alcohol: 16%
Prefecture: Fukushima
Seimaibuai: 58%
Rice Type: Gohyakumangoku

 


Skip to: 23:35 Tatsuriki Kimoto Tokubestsu Junmai

Tatsuriki Kimoto Tokubestsu Junmai

Brewery: Honda Shoten
Prefecture: Hyogo
Classification: Kimoto Tokubetsu Junmai
Acidity: 1.6
Alcohol: 16.0%
SMV: -1.0
Rice Type: Toku A Yamadanishiki
Seimaibuai: 65%
Importer: NY Mutual Trading (NY)

 


Skip to: 34:09 Show Closing

This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!

Episode 57 Transcript

John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast. I am your host, John Puma from the internet sake discord as well as Reddit’s r/sake community. And, uh, the guy on the show who is not a sake samurai.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:41
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I am a sake samurai. I’m also a sake educator and I’m also the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy, to understand

John Puma: 0:59
That’s right. All things sake. But this week we have a very specific thing about sake. Um, we are in the middle of our shubo now, Tim,

Timothy Sullivan: 1:10
all things shubo.

John Puma: 1:11
all things shubo now. So last week, last week we covered

Timothy Sullivan: 1:17
90%.

John Puma: 1:18
of sake. Is that right?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:23
So. We talked about the most common shubo method. And again, shubo is the fermentation or the yeast starter. It’s where all the ingredients come together for the first time where fermentation begins and the purpose of the shubo step and sake production is to make a healthy, vibrant yeast colony to move on to the main fermentation tank. So we talked about sokujo last time. And sokujo was our modern fast yeast starter method, which 90% of all sake uses

John Puma: 1:56
you know, in retrospect, maybe we should have saved that one for last. what has done is done,

Timothy Sullivan: 2:04
you think people will be bored with the other methods.

John Puma: 2:06
Uh, you know what? I do think there are more interesting, but you know, sometimes it’s like you’ve covered 90% of all the sake let’s do that last, that last 10% in three episodes,

Timothy Sullivan: 2:18
Well, we have to say it was a little harder to find sake for this episode. Wasn’t it

John Puma: 2:21
Was, it was, uh, and, and exactly what, what specialty are we looking for today, Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 2:27
Well, we’re going back to kicking it old school things like samurai time, shubo,

John Puma: 2:35
samurai shubo.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:37
shubo. Well what we’re going to talk about today is called the Kimoto method, the Kimoto shubo. method, and a lot of people consider this to be the original, shubo method that was used for many, many years before the,

John Puma: 2:54
the, the OG shubo method

Timothy Sullivan: 2:55
this is the OG shubo method. And we should probably get right. to our percentages. What percentage of sake is made using this old fashioned Kimoto method?

John Puma: 3:07
sorry. So it’s somewhere between one and. At maximum eight. So I feel like I’m going to get within five. So I’m going to say, let’s say Kimoto, I’m going to say like 3%.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:25
the answer is 1%.

John Puma: 3:30
Are you kidding me?

Timothy Sullivan: 3:30
No. Would I joke about shubo? No,

John Puma: 3:36
true. You rarely

Timothy Sullivan: 3:37
rarely joke about shubo. So it’s 1% of sake production uses this Kimoto method.

John Puma: 3:46
1%, this, this is the 1%.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:49
this, this is the billionaire of shubo methods.

John Puma: 3:57
Oh my. So, so Tim, last week when we talked about Sokujo we mentioned that you basically buy off the shelf for all sorts of purposes off of the shelf, lactic acid, and you pour it into your Yeast starter. And you’re done kind of,

Timothy Sullivan: 4:15
well, what, what do you remember what the lactic acid does? What the role of that is?

John Puma: 4:20
yes, it’s killing off of the bacteria and the microbes that we do not want. And it is laying the foundation and leaving a clean slate, so that the sake friendly, microbes can do their thing.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:32
It lets the sake yeast live their best life.

John Puma: 4:37
I like it. I like

Timothy Sullivan: 4:38
Yes. One of the differences now is that the sokujo method we talked about last week, as you mentioned, we purchased lactic acid and we dumped it in and it jumps starts the process.

John Puma: 4:51
Hmm. Now you mentioned samurai yeah. In your timing for this particular method. So I’m guessing that the samurai era, brewers could not go to their local store and get lactic acid. So. And that’s understandable. I can, I’m not going to blame them for that. Um, so I’m assuming that they’re trying to accomplish the same thing, get some kind of, acid going. That’s going to pave the way so that the, the sake yeast can live its best life

Timothy Sullivan: 5:23
Yes. what we’re talking about is the natural development of lactic acid

John Puma: 5:30
Oh, so that that’s the plan then they’re just going to try to make it happen.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:33
They’re gonna let lactic acid bacteria fall into the mash and over time, lactic acid, bacteria, other wild bacteria, wild yeast. They’re all going to be in a battle. Mortal combat is going on in And what happens is lactic acid gradually wins out and little by little. Lactic acid bacteria is giving off lactic acid kills off the wild yeast and bacteria, and this process for the lactic acid to build up naturally, it takes about two weeks. So this adds two weeks to the process. The sokujo method was two weeks total. So this adds two weeks to that. So with Kimoto, we’re looking at a four week process, two weeks of lactic acid buildup, and then two weeks of the sake yeast, propagation.

John Puma: 6:27
okay. And I’m assuming that climate controlled, not a very, uh, not a very developed concept back then, what are we doing about temperature? Because you did describe, that shubo rooms usually very cold.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:43
Yes. In the modern way of doing things, the shubo room is kept very cold under refrigeration. And we talked about temperature variation to keep the yeast guessing and survival of the fittest and all that. But there is a process That they do. To the Kimoto method. This is what many people would consider the original fermentation starter method. And what they do is called Yama-Oroshi, and this is a method of mashing the water and the rice and the Koji rice together into a paste. And if you’ve ever seen an old woodblock print or maybe a picture of people making sake very often, they have these long wooden poles and they have a low kind of tub or tank in front of them. And they’re using these wooden poles to mash water and rice together.

John Puma: 7:43
That sounds like a lot of work.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:44
Yes. It is a physical process of breaking down the rice and water together as an initial step. And this is the defining characteristic of Kimoto is that they do this Yama-Oroshi, which is, this method of mashing rice and water together with a pole. And in the past, they would actually sing songs to keep them in rhythm. So they would, they have these sake brewing songs that they would sing and they would rhythmically mash the rice and water together, trying to break down the rice grains and create kind of a paste of rice and water. And they thought this mashing step yamaoroshi step was really important and necessary. Later on in history, they discovered it wasn’t.

John Puma: 8:39
When you said they thought the first thing that popped into my head was like, Oh,

Timothy Sullivan: 8:45
Yes.

John Puma: 8:46
they, they found, so they found later on that this was not necessary. And I suppose that as a tale for another time?

Timothy Sullivan: 8:53
That is a sneak preview perhaps of next week. imagine for a few centuries, you thought, okay, we’re going to do the fermentation starter Kimoto method. We got to get out our long poles and our rice and our water, and I have to spend hours mashing them together. And then a few generations later. Well, we’ll talk about that Next week. but this mashing of rice and, water with the pole is the defining element of the Kimoto methods. So natural lactic acid development, rice, and water being mashed together by hand and a four week process versus two weeks for the modern method. So that’s a quick summary of what Kimoto is all about

John Puma: 9:37
and, and songs,

Timothy Sullivan: 9:38
and songs

John Puma: 9:39
songs,

Timothy Sullivan: 9:41
there are. There are these brewing songs. I think I can get it on YouTube. And I think I’m going to put it in the show

John Puma: 9:49
Oh my God. If I do, you know, have you, had you ever saw any Kimoto songs? Have you ever, have you ever taken part in, in, um, in making Kimoto?

Timothy Sullivan: 10:02
You know, the brewery where I worked did not make Kimoto?

John Puma: 10:06
Mm,

Timothy Sullivan: 10:07
that would be a hard, no,

John Puma: 10:09
That’s a hard, no. All right. We’ll find you one and we’ll get you over there during brewery races and then

Timothy Sullivan: 10:12
But, but have I seen Kimoto being made? Yes. I’ve, I’ve witnessed this process as an observer and I’ve visited breweries that do Kimoto, but I’ve never done it myself.

John Puma: 10:27
And were they singing?

Timothy Sullivan: 10:29
We’re not seeing it.

John Puma: 10:30
They were not singing. Oh, um, I find it really interesting that despite. Many generations later finding out that this was all an elaborate ruse by the, uh, pole making companies to come with, to sell poles. And then they didn’t actually need to do this that method is still being used today. Um, that is interesting.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:54
Yes, there are some breweries that define themselves by this method that this is what they’ve done. This is what their forefathers did. And this is the method that they specialize in, even though it’s 1% of all sake made, uses this method, because it is arguably the most labor intensive way to get sake started,

John Puma: 11:15
I don’t think there’s much of an argument. This is the most labor intensive way to get sake started.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:18
yes.

John Puma: 11:20
I’m going to go on a limb here. I’m going to, I would put myself out on the line and I’m going to say, this is it. If anybody has a more intensive I’ll I will take the L, but I think this is the one!

Timothy Sullivan: 11:31
Okay. So for all of our listeners, if you want to see the poll ramming in action, please visit SakeRevolution.com. Check the show notes for the YouTube videos that we will put there. And you will see the Kimoto method in action defined again by yamaoroshi process, which is the pole ramming rice and water mashing. You don’t want to miss it.

John Puma: 11:57
I, I don’t want miss it. I gotta say this. I have not witnessed people doing this, so I need to, uh, I need to get my eyes on this. I mean, I’ve seen photos. Um, I’ve seen video, but I’ve never been there. So I need to experience that at some point.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:11
Yeah. So it’s really interesting. Again, the funny thing is all these Shubo methods we’re talking about through this short series. The end purpose is the same. You want lactic acid buildup in your mash to kill off the bad germs, the bad bacteria, and you want to create an environment that’s perfect for the sake yeast too. Live their best life.

John Puma: 12:35
to live their best life. That’s Oh, we do have an episode title don’t we?.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:44
it’s funny that there’s all these different roads to the same goal. They want lactic acid to be that sanitizing agent in the mash. And once you’ve achieved that whether it’s two weeks of natural development or whether you just dump it in. You don’t either way. You’re going to end up at the same point. And once that lactic acid kind of sanitizes the mash, the yeast can go in and flourish uninhibited.

John Puma: 13:12
Hmm. I love it. When my yeast flourishes inhibited.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:16
I wish I could flourish uninhibited.

John Puma: 13:20
Then we’d all be living our best lives, we’ll all be

Timothy Sullivan: 13:22
living our best lives. So when we talk about tasting Kimoto versus Sokujo, we really have to consider this two week period where the mortal Kombat of microorganisms is going on in there. So if there’s wild yeast falling in there, Wild bacteria falling in there. Lactic acid, bacteria revving up. All those different microorganisms are battling it out and, they’re going to leave their traces of their existence in the shubo.

John Puma: 13:57
and and so due to that, battling it out in the mortal Kombat kind of way, um are there a distinctive, aroma or taste qualities that are inherent to Kimoto or at least more more prevalent in Kimoto?

Timothy Sullivan: 14:13
Yes, you will notice. In most cases, uh, some breweries handle it with a very gentle touch, but for a classic Kimoto versus a classic Sokujo. You’re going to notice a very distinct taste difference that two-week period of lactic acid developing naturally wild yeast, wild bacteria fighting for survival, duking it out. That leaves a flavor impression in the sake. And it’s most often described as an earthiness or, uh, umami flavors or more robust flavors. So you can get funky, earthy. Very bold flavors from this Kimoto method. And it all has to do with this initial lead up to building up lactic acid. It’s a really interesting dimension to the flavor that you don’t get with Sokujo. That’s why sokujo is most often used for the more clean and more elegant styles of sake and Kimoto methods have a reputation for being more earthy, robust, and funky and flavor.

John Puma: 15:24
While I do tend to lean towards those cleaner flavors, in my day-to-day sake drinking there are some times when I do really enjoy some of the unusual funkiness as the way you put that. I like that, that you get, from some Kimoto. Um, Little little less the earthiness, but a lot more when, when things just get a little weird sometimes

Timothy Sullivan: 15:43
yeah. And people talk about Kimoto having like. Mushroom or, funky, cheesy notes or lots of umami flavors. And you can also talk about warming Kimoto sake quite It’s the style of sake that really takes to a gentle warming to emphasize those, amino acid and savory flavors even more. So when we taste our sakes today, we can. Think about what would this taste like warm versus chill. So that’s another great thing about Kimoto sakes is that you can really experiment pretty easily with temperature as well, with the style.

John Puma: 16:25
well, well, all right. I think, um, I think we’ve done enough book learning and it is time for the practical application.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:36
Okay. Okay. Well, John let’s do our introductions. Why don’t you tell me, John, what sake did you bring to represent Kimoto today?

John Puma: 16:46
Well, I am, I’m quite proud of this one, Tim. So I brought what I am very confident is the most elaborate bottle that we’ve ever had on the show.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:58
That’s a pretty bold statement.

John Puma: 17:00
I mean, look at this thing. So, um, unfortunately this is an audio only podcast, but check the show notes. Uh, it is, quite an interesting bottle. It’s kind of like the base is almost triangular, it’s also extraordinarily tall. Like this does not fit in my sake fridge at all. Um, I need to put this in my regular refrigerator in order to get it. And then, and then in there I need to like actually put it on like a, an extra short shelf. Um, but this is the, uh, Daishichi Raden. And that allegedly means mother of Pearl so this is again from a Daishichi who are, I want to say they are they’re Kimoto specialists like that is, this is like the thing they do. This is what they’re known for doing is making excellent Kimoto sake. And so it made sense. When we’re doing the Kimoto episode ,to get my hands on a sake from them, what about you, Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 18:01
well, I have a brand called Tatsuriki. This is from Hyogo Prefecture. And I think we featured this brand when we did our episode on Yamada Nishiki. so. this is, this is a brand that uses the special A-grade yamada Nishiki and this is their Kimoto Tokubetsu Junmai. And they’re from Hyogo Prefecture. This has a 65% rice polishing ratio and an SMV of minus one, which is interesting, maybe just a hint on the less dry side and acidity of 1.7 and alcohol of 16%,

John Puma: 18:47
very nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:48
this is a sake I’ve never had before. It’s been in my fridge for a while and I was saving it for our Kimoto episode. So I’m super excited to open it up and try it out.

John Puma: 18:58
fantastic. My Daishichi is from go gohyakomangoku mill down to 58%. The alcohol by volume is 16% and the acidity is 1.5. Unfortunately, I do not have a sake meter value on this one. I was not able to find it.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:16
well, we’ll have to taste it. and make our best judgment. Okay. Well, I think we have to give Daishichi it’s due. And why don’t you go first? Because Daishichi is the brand that represents Kimoto. This brewery only makes Kimoto. Did you know that

John Puma: 19:35
I did. I did. Um, it’s, it’s one of the first things I learned about them and I, I had a bit of a crash course. I had never had their sake before, and then I ended up going to a, Daishichi event? And while I was there, I found out that they only make Kimoto and that their sake is absolutely delicious

Timothy Sullivan: 19:54
Yeah,

John Puma: 19:54
a nice thing to find out at an event. Now, this Raden is a little bit unusual for a Kimoto in that it is suggested to be had chilled I okay. So I’ve opened up this Raden and now giving it a poor, oh my. This nose is fruity. This is very unexpected, fruity, a little citrusy, a little light citrus. Yeah. And, uh, a little bit of, a little, a little bit of a little boozy, uh, on the tail end of that nose as well. and this is incredibly elegant.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:50
I think Daishichi has so much experience with Kimoto that even though traditionally it’s more earthy, robust and umami Laden, I think they have such a deft hand at making Kimoto sakes they can create super elegant expressions of Kimoto.

John Puma: 21:08
this is wonderful. Uh, this, so that is fruity, but there is a layer of umami on top of that. It’s kind of, you’re almost experiencing them at the same time. It’s like fruity umami. It’s bizarre and wonderful. And it’s very light, a very, some very surprisingly light. I kind of. I expected it to be heavier. I expected the mouthfeel to be a little bit more to be thicker. Uh, this is a lot lighter than I was expecting but a really nice blend ,of umami and and a little bit of fruit, I’m just, I’m still stunned ,that there’s this much this much kind of fruitiness in there. Very, very, very nice. Uh, it’s a little bit dry also, I remember I mentioned that it wasn’t very, thick. I want to say that when it’s thinner, like that usually tends to be a little bit drier. There’s a lot of depth here. This is It is very, how do I put this? There’s a lot going on, but it’s not. It doesn’t that like, usually when you have a sake that has a lot of complexity and depth, typically that leads to something that’s earthier and this is not earthy. Um, but it does have, like I said, a lot of depth, a lot of. A lot of umami. is so different. it’s so unusual.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:35
Yeah. Well, I think one, one thing you can look for in your sake, even though it’s elegant meant to be consumed chilled, you can look for a little bit of that complexity of flavor. Like it’s not just fruity and light and clean. It has that back note of umami, a little trace of something. Earthy just on the tail, just underneath the surface. And that depth of flavor is something that also identifies Kimoto.

John Puma: 23:04
absolutely. This is like, you can really, really delve into this and you spend a lot of time thinking about it and sipping it and, and musing it’s really a lot going on here. It’s wonderful.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:18
Yeah. You can spend hours thinking about the yamaoroshi pole ramming was done

John Puma: 23:24
I will make my own songs about the sake. yeah. So I will pour myself a little bit more and then, uh, hand over to you, Tim.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:35
All right. Well, I, again, I have the Tatsuriki, Kimoto Tokubetsu Junmai. This is from Honda Shoten. They are super well-known brewery from Hyogo Prefecture that specializes in class a. Yamada Nishiki so that’s the super rare, super expensive Yamada. Nishiki and I’m so curious to try this because they’ve taken this high-end raw material and they’ve applied a more earthy production method to it, the Kimoto method. So I’m going to go ahead and open this up. I have to wrestle with some foil here, myself.

John Puma: 24:13
Uh, you know, it’s how it is some nights he wrestle with the foil.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:20
All right. So we have a little bit of color here. You can see the, just, just a hint of straw color. Are you very light yellow? This could again, almost pass for white wine Chablis color.

John Puma: 24:40
I should have talked about my color earlier, but it is almost identical to yours very, white wine ish.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:47
Okay. So I’m going to give this a smell. It smells very rich and complex, a little bit of a nutty aroma and fruity as well, but it smells like, a little bit like dried fruits.

John Puma: 25:02
Ooh.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:03
I’m even getting a hint. This sounds crazy, but I’m even, I’m even getting a hint of like a ginger snap cookie. Like there’s something there’s like warm spice in the, in the

John Puma: 25:15
ginger snap, cookie. That’s fascinating. Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:18
So there’s a little bit of warm spice, like almost like a nutmeg or a cinnamon characteristic, uh, preserved fruits and a richness and just a hint of something nutty as well. Uh, kind of like a warming, warming smell. Hmm. Almost like, um, you know, when you think about the way banana fresh banana smell versus banana bread, banana bread has that kind of warm, baked, spicy characteristic to it versus fresh tropical fruit bananas. So it’s kind of like that, that characteristic we’re dealing with. Let me give it a taste. Hm. So the flavor is rich, very elegant, but it has a richness and a depth of flavor to it. Almost like that. Again, this sounds strange, but almost like, uh, a custard or like a, a vanilla pudding flavor

John Puma: 26:21
I’ve got to try this. That sounds wonderful. Save some for me.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:25
it’s all the kind of, it’s bringing up all these kind of Christmas and holiday warming feelings. It goes down very smooth, uh, very elegant rich, but this is not, I repeat not your typical yamada Nishiki fruit bomb. This is more warming, spicy, a little bit rich. But not in a way that is off-putting some sakes when you taste them and they’re earthy. They’re just like, boom, like forest floor or, like, hay or. They smell like barnyard or something like that. You know, they’re very, very earthy and robust and here we’re getting something that has that depth of flavor, but it’s very elegant and has notes of like almond paste and preserved overripe banana and a nice dry finish. I can totally imagine warming this up. But it is giving me that kind of a holiday time warm spiced, gingerbread cookie kind of feelings.

John Puma: 27:49
Sounds nice. That sounds very interesting.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:52
Yeah. The other thing that just occurred to me was that I was like, what is this flavor? What is this flavor? I talked about custard and ginger snaps. It’s like butterscotch. That’s what I’m going for. Like a little butterscotchy flavor. And it smells good too. super interesting. I didn’t, I didn’t know, special a grade Yamada Nishiki could do this. I really didn’t

John Puma: 28:16
well, you know, they, they do call you Tim “Special A-Grade Yamada Nishki” Sullivan. So I’m surprised you didn’t know this.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:25
I’m delighted to learn this. this. is one of those things that makes sake so amazing is that you can study sake for years and still be surprised every day of the week with something new and interesting. So it’s one of the things that makes sake so appealing is, is the depth and the breadth of the different flavors that are out there.

John Puma: 28:47
Um, and that’s, how many ways are there that makes sense,

Timothy Sullivan: 28:49
Ban Ryu!. Ban Ryu! 10,000,

John Puma: 28:54
which is good because we want to make a lot of these episodes. So

Timothy Sullivan: 29:00
yes, we have a few more seasons to go before we reach the end of the 10,000 ways.

John Puma: 29:07
just a few, just a few.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:09
So Kimoto is the method that was used as the default way to make sake for hundreds of years, we’re talking from the commercialization of sake until around 1900.

John Puma: 29:27
Oh, wow.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:28
So. There’s a good number of centuries in there where Kimoto method was the only method. this is just how it was done. And when we get into the 20th century, that’s when things start to develop. When people begin to understand microbiology a little bit more understand microbes in yeast, a little bit more, uh, but for a long time, this method of using these poles. To mix the rice and water. This was the, just the way it was done. So it’s often called the traditional method because for centuries, this was IT,

John Puma: 30:01
this was that. And then, so you said that this was until the 20th century,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:05
yeah.

John Puma: 30:08
so we’ve got one century moral to go and we’ve got three more methods technically, because, uh, nowadays, you know, everybody’s doing sokujo, so my, everybody, but. 90%. I can say everybody when it’s 90%,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:27
Yes. So

John Puma: 30:28
I feel no shame,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:31
so we’ve had 90%, sokujo, and now we know there’s 1% Kimoto and we have two more methods to go, so we’ll see how they

John Puma: 30:41
methods to go, and this will be the turn of the century for our next method. And we have implied that. They stopped with the poles.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:50
The pole ramming

John Puma: 30:51
pole ramming

Timothy Sullivan: 30:52
in question.

John Puma: 30:54
the death of poll ramming. It’s going to be exciting, I think. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:00
So I think that. Kimoto is such a fun thing to look out for because it is not produced by a lot of breweries because it is more labor intensive. It involves that. Yamahai Roshi pole ramming step that takes a lot of time, takes a lot of effort. So if you do see a Kimoto out there in the wild, if you’re in a restaurant or a liquor store and you see a Kimoto sake, I really encourage you to pick it up, give it a try and see what you think. See how you respond to the earthy flavors of Kimoto. You may be a new fan.

John Puma: 31:33
Yeah, I tend to think that, and this is going to bleed a little bit into next week, but I tend to think that when a brewery is doing Yamahai, which will be the next one we’re talking about. They’re going more for the, for the earthiness, that’s like the goal there, if they’re all over that, and that, that earthiness, that, that super umami, um, kind of situation. And I think that nowadays, when a brewery’s doing Kimoto, it’s either they want to do something a little funky, a little different, a little bit interesting, or they want show off that they can coax these, like. Really interesting flavors out of this really ancient method and show how well they can do it. And I think that, uh, and, Daishishi’s case kind of a little bit of both. They’re really extra flexing on what they can do with, uh, with Kimoto.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:26
totally.

John Puma: 32:27
and also it is just a little funky. It’s a little, it’s a little, you taste this and you’re like, I don’t get this kind of depth from regular sake. Um, but it’s all at the same time. It is not that super earthy umami bomb. Right in the middle,

Timothy Sullivan: 32:43
Yep. They have a very. Skilled hand with the Kimoto method and it is a subtle flex, but it is amazing what they can do, especially with Daishichi’s high-end sakes and they make some expensive sakes and they are delicious. They’re amazing. And a hundred percent Kimoto so they are masters of it, for sure.

John Puma: 33:06
Yeah. And it sounds to me like you’re Tatsuriki kind of the same idea is that it’s, um, it’s a little bit of a twist and it is adding more depth to the experience that you normally have with that kind of rice that you’re having, you know, w what that brand usually does. And it, you know, it’s, it’s kinda just, just tweaking the knob a little bit, and it’s showing you look, what else we can do.

Timothy Sullivan: 33:28
Yeah, it’s funny. Both of our breweries are taking these super Luxe, like luxurious ingredients and using this Orthodox old fashioned method on them and coming up with something complex and deep in flavor, but still really elegant. And that’s super exciting for me. I think that’s really good. Cool.

John Puma: 33:47
Yeah,

Timothy Sullivan: 33:48
okay. Well, we talked about sokujo. We talked about Kimoto and, for next week I can not wait to dive deep into Yamahai. It’s going to be exciting.

John Puma: 34:01
Yes. and to the chagrin of all the pole makers in Japan, where their services were no longer required.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:09
dun, dun,dun…. All right. Well, we hope you enjoyed Kimoto and like I said, please, if you have a chance to pick up the Kimoto yourself, please give it a try, and a special thanks for all our listeners for tuning in. We really do hope that you’re enjoying our show. If you’d like to show your support for Sake Revolution, one way you could really help us out be to take a couple of minutes and leave us a written review on Apple podcasts. It really helps us to get the word out about our show.

John Puma: 34:38
Yeah. When you’re done leaving your review, please go and tell a friend and then be sure to subscribe and then, um, tell your friend to subscribe because we don’t want you to miss episodes. And when you subscribe the episodes automatically download to your device of choice every single week. And that’s it. You’ve got it. You’ve got every single episode then. And you’re good to go.

Timothy Sullivan: 35:01
And. As always to learn more about any of the topics we talked about in today’s episode, if you’d like to learn more about Kimoto or see the sake brewing songs in action, or see Kimoto yamaoroshi pole ramming videos, you must visit our website, SakeRevolution.com. and right there, you can check out all the detailed show notes.

John Puma: 35:24
And if you have a sake question that you need answered it, it doesn’t necessarily need to be related to pole ramming or the songs they’re in. But we do want to hear from you. Uh, please reach out to us. The email address as always is [email protected] So until next time, please remember to keep drinking sake. And KANPAI! a little punchy at the end there. That was, that was fun.