John Puma: 0:21
Hello everybody. And welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast. And I’m your host, John Puma from the sake notes. I’m also the administrator. The internet sake discord and an all around sake nerd.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:34
And I’m your host Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai, Sake educator, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website and together John and I will be tasting and chatting about all things, sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:50
That’s right. Tim and Tim the cabin fever comes and goes and I’m in that mood right now where I just want to get away. Can we talk about someplace far away? What’s the furthest, we can go and still talk about sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:03
Well, I hear you, John, I’ve got the cabin fever too. If we were to think about it, what’s the furthest we can get away from New York traveling West. Okay. Over the Pacific past Hokkaido past Tokyo past Kyoto past Kobe. All right. We’re in Kyushu. So I think Kyushu Island is as far West as we can get. And for Sake regions on Kyushu I think it’s Saga. That’s as far away as we can get.

John Puma: 1:32
Saga? All right. So let’s talk about, I have personally, I’ve never been to Saga, but I, but I have been to, Kyushu, I’ve been to Fukuoka. How about you?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:41
Yeah. I’ve been to Fukuoka too, but I’ve never made it down to Saga,

John Puma: 1:47
Yeah. I want to say it’s like down into the West slightly right. South and West.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:52
Which between Fukuoka and Nagasaki, I think.

John Puma: 1:58
Oh, okay. Yeah. I’ve never had the pleasure, but I have had the pleasure of having some of their Sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:04
Yes. I think that in all of Kyushu Saga has a really well organized. Brewer’s Guild and there’s 24 sake breweries in Saga. Yeah, 24. And they’re very well organized and they have a great Saga sake website. And I don’t know if you know this, but there’s even an appellation of origin control system for Saga.

John Puma: 2:33
is, is that like a, like a junior GI or like, what is that?

Timothy Sullivan: 2:38
Well, GI is a geographical indicator or indication. And I think the appellation of origin is a bit less strict, but I did look up what the criteria are for the Saga appellation of origin. Would you like to hear.

John Puma: 2:55
I

Timothy Sullivan: 2:56
right. So to certify your sake as Saga certified, first of all, all ingredients must be Saga grown

John Puma: 3:05
Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:06
and that’s. Pretty easy because I don’t know if you know much about the geography of Saga, but there is a huge plane in the middle of the prefecture called the Saga plane. And it’s sandwiched between two mountains, the safe furry in the North and the Tara mountain in the South. And both these mountains kind of stream in water to this vast Plains. So it’s really well known locally for growing rice. So to get this out,

John Puma: 3:36
a great place to grow rice, then natural naturally occurring. Perfect spot for

Timothy Sullivan: 3:40
Exactly. And then the next step is the entire brewing process, including bottling must take place in Saga prefecture. That’s not hard.

John Puma: 3:50
that first part, that second part’s easy in comparison.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:54
One is that products must pass a sensory evaluation testing for aroma taste balance and overall quality. Okay.

John Puma: 4:03
sounds very subjective, but okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:07
Well, when you see Saga quality, you know, it, I think that’s what they’re saying

John Puma: 4:13
do. Uh that’s. Okay. All right. That was interesting.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:16
I think even if it’s not Really strict. these types of georaphical identifiers are really important. The more that an area can have an identity, I think that’s great for developing a regional style. And even for marketing purposes, you know, we have to get the word out about different regions and I think prefectures need to do things like this to set themselves apart and give themselves a clear message when it comes to selling and marketing their sake.

John Puma: 4:45
Yeah I agree. And I think that it’s also like from the enthusiast standpoint, it’s kind of cool. Like it’s, you know, it’s exciting to know that these breweries are kind of working together and Doing some interesting stuff. So that’s pretty cool that they’re doing that. the sensory evaluation, it seems a little weird, but you know, the rest of it it helps the prefecture. I think it helps them along. now when I was in Fukuoka, I did visit a sake bar called Saga Kura. And this place was a very, as you probably guessed, it is, it is exclusively Sake from Saga. That’s all they sell, but he gets a lot of Exclusive bottles. Yes. A lot of rare bottles. He likes to show off his rare bottles. This is very exclusive bottles. When you order something, he wants to tell you everything about the brewery. So show you a map of the region, show you where that brewery is. Tell you about the owner of the brewery, how long they’ve been around. It’s very much like a sake nerd’s, heaven. So if you’re ever in Fukuoka and someday, we will be able to travel again, go to this place because this guy’s super into. Into this. He wants you to understand. I want you to appreciate what goes into making Saga sake?

Timothy Sullivan: 5:54
Well, you know, when you just said the name, it kind of hit me that it’s also, I think it’s also a pun

John Puma: 6:00
Oh, it’s definitely a pun,

Timothy Sullivan: 6:01
Saga, Kura,

John Puma: 6:03
right. Which is a little bit like Saga, right?

Timothy Sullivan: 6:06
Yes. So sake grew on me and

John Puma: 6:08
I thought you’d appreciate that.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:10
yeah, Saka Gura means Sake brewery and Saga Kura means Saga brewery. So it’s a Japanese love, those puns and plan words. Don’t they?

John Puma: 6:23
I think so. I mean, they definitely did in this case,

Timothy Sullivan: 6:27
well. That gives me just the name alone. Gives me great respect for this guy.

John Puma: 6:33
we’ll put note in the show notes on how to find it.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:36
Yeah, I think A bar owners, dedication to one region. sake is something that really indicates that there’s some depth there, some diversity there. And I’ve been to other sake bars in Japan that focus on one prefecture. And I always take that as a sign of respect for that prefecture, you know, like they’ve got something to dig into something to study and It, I think that speaks well for what we’re going to discover. When we taste our Saga sake today,

John Puma: 7:07
Oh, yeah. So we do have some sake from Saga to complete our Saga Saga and you like that pun. Okay. Um,

Timothy Sullivan: 7:17
we have too many puns to choose from for the show title. What are we going to do?

John Puma: 7:21
Um, I think Saga Saga, the Saga of Saga.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:25
The Saga of Saga Gura

John Puma: 7:29
The Saga of Saga

Timothy Sullivan: 7:30
Kura.

John Puma: 7:31
maybe. Alright, but enough of this chatter let’s talk about the sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:37
Yes,

John Puma: 7:38
Did, did you break your streak of daiginjos today

Timothy Sullivan: 7:41
I did. I did.

John Puma: 7:43
actually? I’m remembering now that you actually broke your streak of taking dose already so you could easily bounce back next time.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:48
Yes. Well, I want to taste it all and try everything. So I picked a sake for this episode, focusing on Saga from one of the most well known and one of the I think most Widely distributed Saga breweries, which is Tenzan Shuzo and they make a brand called Shichida. And if you’re a fan of premium sake, you may have heard of Shichida before Shichida’s the name of the owner of the brewery. And the sake that I picked up from them was their Junmai Ginjo

John Puma: 8:27
hmm. That is a favorite

Timothy Sullivan: 8:29
around these

John Puma: 8:29
parts

Timothy Sullivan: 8:29
Yeah. Yes, it’s really great, the alcohol is 16%. The rice milling rate is 55% and they use two rices Yamada Nishiki, which is very well known as the King of Sake rice. And they also use, a, Saga rice called Saga No Hana, which is a local Saga Sake. Rice. Yeah. How about you?

John Puma: 8:56
So Tenzan and their shichida brand is the most popular in the West, I will say that Amabuki, the brand that I have is a close second.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:10
Agreed.

John Puma: 9:11
I have their, himawari sunflower, Junmai Ginjo Nama, also listed as a Genshu and. The kind of interesting thing about this is that they’re using a yeast derived from sunflower, which is something that Amabuki does. we have tasted Amabuki sake on the show before, and we discussed very briefly that that’s something they do. They like to use Flower Yeast. They like to think outside the box a little bit when it comes to Yeast, I think that’s a interesting thing, the alcohol percentage is 16 and a half. The Seimaibuai is 55% and the rice is sake komachi, which I believe is actually from Akita.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:00
Well there’s akita sake komachi, which is a version of that. That is in Akita only, but Sake komachi is a slightly different strain

John Puma: 10:10
I knew I’d heard that term associated with a Akita and I made some rather rash assumptions.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:17
It’s all good. So things we have in common, we both have a Junmai Ginjo and the milling rate is 55%, the alcohol percentage is roughly the same, but right there, I think the similarities. And so if you want to go ahead and get started, you can not open yours up.

John Puma: 10:36
I would be happy to. Well, I will tell you right off the bat that this definitely has a very strong, Nama note. I think we’ve talked about that a little bit in the past where it’s a little bit bold, this bottle is about a little over a year old, and it is a Nama, but it has been refrigerated that whole time. So it’s not gone bad in any way, which is good. But on the nose like I said, that big, bold Nama punched in the face. A little bit of that ethanol, the alcohol, it comes with it. And, honestly, a little bit of that Carmel that comes with aging that comes with it being a year old and a Nama. It’s not distracting in any way, but it is a little different and this is one of the most unique sakes I’ve ever sipped. And this is going to take a moment to try and process. This is a very interesting.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:35
So as you mentioned earlier, Amabuki, the yeast that they used to do. The alcoholic fermentation for this sake was cultivated off of sunflower and it’s worth noting that Amabuki does that for every sake they make, they cultivate their yeast from different strains of flowers. So there’s a sunflower there’s. Strawberry blossom. something like Marigold as well. So that’s something that’s really unique to them. Most breweries do not cultivate their own yeast. So this is something kind of rare and special.

John Puma: 12:13
Yeah. The first thing I’m noticing when I sip on it is that even though this is a Nama, it is got a nice dry spike to it. Like the first thing I noticed when I sip it is. That it’s nice and dry, but it’s balanced really nicely by acidity, this sake actually has a Sake meter value of plus 10. So it should be really dry and very crisp, but it’s not overwhelmingly either of those things. I mean, they’re there, but they’re not bowling you over there being balanced out by the lack of pasteurization the acidity is not that high either. So that’s not entering into it one way or the other, but yeah, it’s very, interesting, very different unique Very well balanced. That acidity plays very nicely with the dryness and the. Lack of pasteurization. I think if this was a pasteurized sake, it would be really dull. it would be very boring. It would be very dry. It would be very Oyaji. And you know, that would be that. But, uh, I think they made something pretty interesting with this. This is nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:18
Yeah, plus 10 that’s quite dry

John Puma: 13:20
they’re not messing around him.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:23
I t’s a really interesting sake I’ve had it many times and you get that. It’s such a unique combination of that unpasteurized element from the Nama, just as you said the super dry characteristic and then the funkiness from the flower yeast. And my take on the sunflower flavor has always been like more savory. it doesn’t bring a sweet characteristic to it, or it’s more autumnal in a way. I don’t know if that makes sense.

John Puma: 13:54
And I think this is probably one of the most food friendly things I’ve ever tasted on the show, which is great. And we’ll get to that later on. We talk about how we pair these things up, but let’s talk about. Your Tenzan slash Shichida?

Timothy Sullivan: 14:10
Yes, let’s go ahead and open this up.

John Puma: 14:12
Yes.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:21
Okay. When I look at it in the glass, I’ve got just a hint of color, just the palest cast of like a straw color, Hmm. Oh, it smells really good. So it has overall a fruity aroma profile and I’m getting more of the unique tropical fruits, like papaya. very often when we smell a sake and you say it smells fruity, you think of Melon, banana, and Apple, but here the fruity notes are a little bit more mysterious.

John Puma: 15:01
Ooh, I like that.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:03
Yeah. And very layered, you know, it’s not like, Oh, I can smell that. That is a hundred percent pineapple, you know, it’s not like that at all. It’s like, there’s a little bit of a papaya, maybe some Kiwi, just this really interesting mix of mysterious fruits. It really smells intoxicating and lovely, like just really great. Okay. Now I’m going to give it a taste. Hmm. Interesting. The flavor profile is much more savory than I was expecting. The aroma had a nice fruity note to it, but there was a depth there and the flavor profile is more. Rich and a little bit savory and not sweet at all. And my SMV, my Sake meter value is only a plus one. So

John Puma: 15:57
Wow. So it’s much more neutral.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:59
much more neutral, but this doesn’t taste overtly dry, but there’s a savory umami note in the background that is balancing out that fruity aroma. It’s a really interesting sake and. I don’t know if it’s the season and all the pumpkins I’ve seen at the grocery store lately, but this, this sake feels autumnal to me. Like, yeah, like this is my, um, this is my sweater weather, pumpkin spice

John Puma: 16:28
and it’s not even a hiyaoroshi.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:30
I know it’s not. But it’s got a wonderful depth of flavor and a umami note and a fullness to it that is very autumnal and, uh, very, very comforting. So really enjoyable.

John Puma: 16:47
nice. Now, one of the interesting things about Shichida is that this brewery the Tenzazn brewery has been around for more than 140 years, but the Shichida brand relatively speaking is very recent and it’s a kind of a different take and it’s a much more Western food friendly brand generally speaking. Shichida san was actually the subject of a New York times article back in 2014, where they talk about sake breweries, reaching out to the West and where his particular brand fits into that to very interesting read. If you guys have a chance to check it out, we recommend you do so that will also be in the show notes. And I think that that’s part of the reason why that sake. Is so popular here in the West. Why we when we think of Saga, the first brand that came to mind was Shichida for us because that’s, that does agree with our foods a lot more than a lot of other sakes do.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:45
Yeah. When I was first getting into sake I don’t even think that shichida brand was around. I remember drinking Tenzan Junmai, so their original hardcore, Junmai, and it, it is the most unique packaging you will ever see. It is a bottle and it’s wrapped in like a dried out bamboo leaf and it is so distinctive on the shelf. Once you see it, you’ll never forget it. And it is a super dry, really like oyaji style, really delicious, but very distinctively, dry sake and very popular. And I think that Shichida san, the owner had this vision to create a second brand. That as you said is more open to the West, more food friendly, more wine-like for lack of a better term. And, uh, his lineup, the Shichida brand has become wildly successful and really, really popular. Yeah.

John Puma: 18:40
it’s become such a big deal and it’s become, like, we mentioned very, very popular here in the West, which is great. And that tenzan junmai that’s a genshu is still around. You can still get it in New York. If you look around the right places, it’s a very unique. sort of sake as you mentioned, the packaging is certainly the most unique thing you’re ever going to see. but the flavor is big and bold and goes along with that packaging.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:05
So let’s talk about food pairings.

John Puma: 19:07
Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:09
So yours, you said was kind of, uh, had a richness to it, right?

John Puma: 19:15
Well, it’s crisp and dry, but not overtly. So very nicely balanced with the acidity. And I would not be afraid to have this with more. When I say Western dishes, I’m talking things with like some, oils to them, you know, for example, if I had something that maybe. Was italian? Um, like perhaps a bolognese I think this would stand up to a bolognese really nicely. So a pasta bolonaise as long as it’s not too creamy, I think this’ll be perfectly fine with that. And it’ll really, I think the two of them will compliment each other nicely just because of how dry and this starts out. It’s going to make you kind of forget about the bolognese right away for a moment and reset your palate. And then you’re ready for a brand new bite of the food. Now I’m hungry.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:07
That’s how the show works.

John Puma: 20:08
Yeah, that’s exactly it, what about you? What do you have

Timothy Sullivan: 20:11
Um, well, as I mentioned, this tenzan has a very layered flavor with a little bit of umami or a savory note. So that makes me think of the, kind of the autumnal fish that we get. So some of the, like The more oily fish that you get in Japan in the fall, I think would pair really, really well with this. And that’s like a sardine type fish, things like that are really good, That’s not my favorite GoTo kind of fish personally, but if you pair it with the right sake it’s really, really good. I think for many Western people the fishy fish, you know, the fish that have a strong, the fishy fish. the really oily sardine type fish that have a strong fish a presence to them. I think that. Certain types of umami driven sakes pair really, really well with that. And sake has the super power to mitigate fishiness. And it’s something that you really have to experience to truly appreciate how well sake can pair with even the most overt, fish forward dishes. So, uh, I was thinking of some of those autumnal silver fish and oily fish that are really bold and flavor and would pair and be balanced really well with this type of umami Sake

John Puma: 21:33
Ooh, that sounds nice, when I was doing a little bit of research on the sake I was drinking today, I did see very frequently suggestions for cheeses to have with the sake that people felt. It was very cheese friendly blue cheese cream, cheese, that sort of thing, but Tim, I gotta tell you something and this is something that’s going to no doubt. Come up again on the show someday soon. Uh, I don’t eat cheese, so I I couldn’t test this and I don’t have any hands on experience to be like, Oh yeah, that totally would work. So I had to go with, with what I know, and that was why I thought about the bolognese. Isn’t it often bolonaise has cheese as part of, you know, it’s in there, but it’s, it’s not in my face, so I don’t mind it, but I, but. Yeah, that’s a, that’s a thing that happened is, yeah, I don’t, I never did never eat cheese my entire life. I mean, I’ve tasted it. I don’t like, I’ve never liked it my entire life.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:28
okay. So is just something you don’t prefer to eat.

John Puma: 22:31
It’s something I don’t prefer to eat. And at this point in my life as a result of not eating it my whole life, my body is not thrilled with it when I do encounter it dairy in general,

Timothy Sullivan: 22:42
Alright.

John Puma: 22:43
But, uh, But yeah, I didn’t really get to experience that, but I figured I wanted to tell our audience that, Hey, maybe cheese with this

Timothy Sullivan: 22:52
Hmm. I can definitely see that having tasted the Amabuki sunflower before I think cheese would pair really, really well, both of our sakes seem to have an extra little something like a depth of flavor. We can, this is the depth of flavor

John Puma: 23:08
Yeah. This is, it’s so interesting for me also, because it is. Like I mentioned it starts out so dry, but the, the Nama quality of it counters that into this weird, weird robustness that is really unique and really different, it’s definitely something I would recommend somebody try at least once this is such an interesting difference. Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 23:30
And for my sake I think that. the qualities I’ve attributed to this Junmai ginjo from Shichida, I think they can apply to all of his shichida brand I’ve had the Junmai. I’ve had the Junmai Daiginjo, and they all have this depth of flavor and this, body to them, it’s not a high viscosity, but it’s just it’s a depth of flavor and it’s a real complexity that is so enjoyable and they’ve done a great job across the whole brand of making their sake have this depth of flavor, this complexity that is really delicious and intriguing. That’s how I would describe it.

John Puma: 24:10
So we talked a little bit at the opening about how. Saga breweries get together and they try to work together. And that doing things like this would lead to having a more prefectural style. What do we think after all this discussion today? What, what is the saga prefectural style or is that an impossible question to answer having two sakes

Timothy Sullivan: 24:36
I think it’s, I think it’s impossible to answer having had two sakes but I think it’s safe to say this, that saga does not shy away from complexity. It does not shy away from unique production methods or variety. And, uh, it really strives, I think, to be unique, innovative. I mean, creating a new brand in the last 10 years and also cultivating your own Sake yeast off of flowers. Like these are, these are movers and shakers. You know, these are people who are innovating and not just sticking to what they know from the past. So that really speaks, I think, to the innovative culture that the brewers have created for themselves there.

John Puma: 25:25
so there, yeah, they’re being a little bit experimental. They’re not going with the flow, they’re

Timothy Sullivan: 25:29
I think it’s really easy in this sake world to be bound up to your past, you have to make sake this way cause it’s been made that way for 15 generations. And you can always honor that, but trying something new, creating a new brand, trying a new way to make Sake I think is, is really. Fantastic. And it’s what the industry needs to really keep growing and keep thriving.

John Puma: 25:51
Yeah. And they’re getting great results from doing it like these sakes as you mentioned earlier, there’s have a lot of depth to them. They both do. They’re done complete different ways. Like the way they’re accomplishing this is, is wildly unique for each one, but they’re making sake That’s not two dimensional. They’re making sake It’s very, very, very deep. And that’s, that’s interesting and fun. I kind of like that aspect of it.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:13
definitely. Oh, and John there’s one more thing I wanted to mention about saga. Well, saga has an industry that is super famous and connected to Sake

John Puma: 26:27
Oh, so it’s not there. Okay. It’s not there. sake industry is a different industry. That’s connected to

Timothy Sullivan: 26:31
it’s sakey adjacent industry. Um, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of, arita porcelain.

John Puma: 26:39
I’ve heard of porcelain.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:40
Well, Arita porcelain is one of the original. Porcelains in Japan. This industry recently in the last few years celebrated their 400th anniversary. So they’ve been making porcelain in Arita Saga for over 400 years. And the reason I say it’s connected to the sake industry in general is because many, many breweries use Arita porcelain to produce their tokuri their sake carafes and their sake cups. Yeah. It’s viewed as the best of the best. It’s a really high end, a brand of porcelain and it’s a city and there’s many porcelain manufacturers in that city, but this type of porcelain known as Arita porcelain is some of the best there is. And they’re really well known for producing sakewwares as well.

John Puma: 27:35
and this is like the, the saga bur the Kyushu breweries are using this for their, for their porcelain.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:40
No, this is breweries all over the country. There’s breweries in many, many places that want to produce a high quality carafe and a sake cup. And if it has that Arita label on it, you know, that it was made in saga prefecture. So even if the sake comes from a different prefecture, I’ve often seen breweries using this high end, Arita porcelain, and that is a hundred percent from saga.

John Puma: 28:08
Right. I wish I would have known. I would have busted out the good arita porcelain for this episode? I don’t think I have any though.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:14
you, I, you bet I do. Yeah.

John Puma: 28:18
Oh, that’s a missed opportunity Oh, that’s actually really cool. I didn’t realize that’s a nice little, a nice little bonus, bit of knowledge. So you guys, even when we do a deep dive the Sake education corner, lurks it rears its head.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:36
Yeah. So, um, if you drink saga Sake out of Arita porcelain, then you are doubling

John Puma: 28:42
down Yeah, you’re getting the full experience. And here I am with my wine glass.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:50
All right. Well, I want to thank everyone so much for tuning in. We really do hope that you’re enjoying our show. And if you would like to show your support for us and for Sake Revolution, there’s one way you can really help us out. If you could take a couple minutes and leave a written review on Apple podcasts, It’s one of the best ways to help us get the word out about our show.

John Puma: 29:11
And also please be sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts this way, our show will miraculously show up on your device every week. We do one of these about once a week, right Tim? Yeah. And also if you can make sure you tell a friend introduced into our show, maybe they’ll. Get into that. Maybe we’ll get into sake If you have somebody who’s a little curious about sake maybe we can help them get a little bit more curious about sake

Timothy Sullivan: 29:36
I’ve always been sake at curious. And always to learn more about any of the topics or the sakes that we talked about in today’s episode, be sure to visit our website, SakeRevolution.com for the detailed show notes.

John Puma: 29:52
And if you have sake questions that you need answered, or you have recommendations for us, if you wanted to see us talk more about a specific prefecture or region of the world and the sake that comes from there, we want to hear from you get at us. Feedback@sakerevolution.com So until next time, please remember to keep drinking sake and KANPAI!