John Puma: 0:22
Hello everybody. And welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast, and I am one of your hosts. My name is John Puma, uh, from this place called the Sake Notes. Uh, also the admin, uh, founder of the Internet Sake Discord, and I also run the sake subreddit over on Reddit. So come on down sometime.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:48
And I’m your host Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m a sake educator, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and also chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.

John Puma: 1:06
Ah, Tim, how have you been?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:08
Doing good. How about yourself?

John Puma: 1:10
Yeah. Events are happening again. you traveled both near and far for, for events this week

Timothy Sullivan: 1:17
Yes. I went to DC for, uh, sake summit, and that was a lot of fun that was sponsored by the sake Brewer’s Association of North America. We had Weston konishi on the show.

John Puma: 1:32
ah, friend of the show.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:34
Yep. Friend of the pod. and yeah, so there’s, uh, traveling happening. And as we mentioned last week, we have Sake Day coming up very soon, October 1st

John Puma: 1:43
Yes. Have you bought your tickets yet to people listening at home?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:46
please.

John Puma: 1:47
They’re going fast.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:48
If you’re in New York City, buy your tickets, but you know, you know where we haven’t traveled lately, John Puma,

John Puma: 1:54
Tim, I know many places I have not traveled lately. Which one do you have in mind?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:59
We have not traveled to the sake education corner in many, a moon, many, a moon.

John Puma: 2:05
You’re absolutely right. It’s gonna be nice to get back in there again.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:08
People might think you’ve graduated from the sake education corner, but I think you’ve got a few questions left in you, John.

John Puma: 2:14
I think so too. No one ever truly graduates

Timothy Sullivan: 2:17
no one

John Puma: 2:17
corner. Let’s be realistic.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:21
myself included no one escapes the sake education corner

John Puma: 2:24
No no one escapes the sake education corner. Yeah. I am actually, kind of excited about this one. This is, very, this is practical. This is extremely practical information that everybody who has sake in their home should be, aware of. I think.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:43
Yes. And every time that I’ve done an event with the general public and you know, they open up the floor to question. People ask questions from an audience, just regular sake consumers. I get this range of questions every single time guaranteed. So I think it’s really important. We cover it. I’m sure some of our listeners out there have this question.

John Puma: 3:07
excellent. And, and this is great, cuz now you you’ll have answered it in a public forum. And no one should ever ask that question again because they all listen to the show.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:16
Yes, we can refer them to Sake Revolution, episode 122 forevermore.

John Puma: 3:23
Perfect. Perfect. So, let’s get that question out there for our listeners at home.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:28
Yeah. So today we’re gonna tackle the subject of sake storage. How, when, where, why before opening, after opening you name it, we’re gonna talk about it. So it’s all things sake storage.

John Puma: 3:43
Excellent. Excellent. Excellent. All right. So, um, you know, where do you wanna start? I’ve got a bottle of sake. Where am I putting it?

Timothy Sullivan: 3:52
That is a great question to start with

John Puma: 3:55
I bought a ball sake. Yeah. It’s very, very straightforward. I walked in the door. I have this bottle. Does it go on my shelf? Does it go in my fridge? Like, what am I doing?

Timothy Sullivan: 4:03
Yeah. Well, if you’re going to be enjoying that sake in the very near term the next day or two, I think it’s a really good idea just to keep it in the fridge and keep it cold, keep it dark, keep it out of light Enjoy it fresh and young. And don’t wait. Carpe sake. As I always.

John Puma: 4:25
I love it.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:26
T-shirt coming soon.

John Puma: 4:27
Carpe Sake

Timothy Sullivan: 4:28
Carpe Sake

John Puma: 4:29
yes,

Timothy Sullivan: 4:29
sake.

John Puma: 4:30
definitely. Definitely. Okay. So what if I’m, what if, I don’t know when I’m gonna open

Timothy Sullivan: 4:33
Hmm, yep. That’s another good question. So if you buy a special bottle of sake and you wanna store it for a while, or you’re saving it for a special occasion, or you’re gonna wait until the next time you get Japanese takeout or something like that, you know, if you have. Wine fridge or someplace. Cool. If you have room in your refrigerator, that is really the best place to keep it again, keep it cold, keep it out of light and keep it at a steady temperature.

John Puma: 5:02
mm.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:04
It may be a good time to talk about like, what are the enemies of sake when it comes to storage? What are the things we the enemies. What do we have to watch out for?

John Puma: 5:13
Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:14
Well, the first thing is UV light. So same with beer people know not to store beer on the window sill getting direct sunlight. Uh, we wanna protect sake from UV light as much as possible. And the inside of a dark refrigerator is ideal for that. So that’s a great place to keep it another enemy of sake when it comes to storage. Is temperature variation.

John Puma: 5:42
Variation. Interesting.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:45
when you have it in a place that gets warmer and then cooler, warmer, and then cooler, like some people put sake in a closet or in the attic or in the cellar or some place where it’s not a steady low temperature. And that variation can be very bad for sake in the long term. So steady temperature is really important.

John Puma: 6:08
Okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:09
Yeah. And we should also talk briefly about the styles of sake and they have different needs when it comes to temperature. And you probably know John, what I’m thinking of when it comes to what absolutely must be kept cold.

John Puma: 6:24
Yeah. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that my previous experiences in the sake education corner have prepared me to answer this question. and I’m gonna say that. When you have your unpasteurized sake, your Nama sake, that stuff goes in the fridge and stays in the fridge.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:45
Ding, ding, ding, correct. You have graduated from the sake

John Puma: 6:49
Haha.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:50
Yeah. So.

John Puma: 6:52
see. I do listen.

Timothy Sullivan: 6:55
Yeah. So unpasteurized sake as a rule should be kept under refrigeration, uh, sake that has been pasteurized. However, that’s a heat treatment that the sake goes through. Most sake is pasteurized twice.

John Puma: 7:08
Mm-hmm

Timothy Sullivan: 7:10
And if you’ve gone through that pasteurization process twice, that sake is shelf stable outside of refrigeration. So that could be kept in a non refrigerated environment and be perfectly fine. So you have a little more flexibility if you’re short on fridge space and you and I both live in New York city with smaller apartments and fridge spaces at a premium.

John Puma: 7:35
Yeah, it really is.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:36
I, my sake bottles are fighting with my broccoli and, you know, I gotta make decisions. So

John Puma: 7:43
All right. Yeah, shelf stability is a great thing. so take advantage of it whenever you can, but you know, like Tim said, keep it outta the sun though.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:52
yes. Keep it out of the sun. Keep it out of direct sunlight and. pasteurized versus unpasteurized. That’s a real important distinction to make. So that word Nama, N a M a Nama. Again, literally, if you translate it, it means raw. And for sake sake, it means unpasteurized when you purchase Nama you really want to be sure that that is kept refrigerated.

John Puma: 8:19
That covers the, the twice pasteurized I sake and and you’re fully Nama sake. But what about those? Those namachozo and those Nama Zuma, those once pasteurized sakes, what’s the rule of thumb on those.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:31
Yeah. Well, my rule of thumb is to treat them as a fully unpasteurized sake. If it says Nama, don’t take why take the chance life is risky enough. If it says Nama, Zuma, or Nama Cho in my. I treat those simply as a Nama sake. And I’m going to say this has to be refrigerated.

John Puma: 8:53
Okay. I think that’s, I think that’s fair. And it’s a good, you know, when, when you’re, I think that’s a great idea. Airing on the side of caution. There’s not gonna be anything wrong with keeping refrigerated when something could go wrong. If you, if you don’t

Timothy Sullivan: 9:06
absolutely.

John Puma: 9:08
nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:09
So. well, I’m sure you’ve probably gotten this question from your friends who are getting into sake as well. How long can you keep sake unopened at home?

John Puma: 9:22
Unopened.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:23
Yeah. So if you have sake in your fridge or your wine fridge or your wine cellar, what do you think is the best way to go about it? When it comes to storing sake, let’s say longer term does sake get better with age?

John Puma: 9:38
the rule of thumb is you want to have the sake as soon as you can, after it has been bottled. So age is generally speaking, not a friend of sake. There are, of course, always exceptions to this rule, but for the vast majority of sake out there, you wanna have it as soon as you can. that’s how I live my sake life.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:02
Hmm. I started listening to a husband and wife podcast, and they’re both Harvard educated lawyers and they have a wonderful saying that I am now adopting when they get a question about the law or something like that. 99% of the time they have the same answer. And the answer is, it depends.

John Puma: 10:25
okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:26
when I get this question, how long can you keep sake unopened? In the fridge or in your wine cellar? My answer is now following the advice of the Harvard lawyers. It depends

John Puma: 10:39
All right. Um, alright. So it depends implies that there are, are some factors that we need to consider and discuss. So, Tim, what are these factors?

Timothy Sullivan: 10:51
I would say the more hearty, robust, higher in alcohol and sturdy a sake is the more. That is kind of built for longer term aging.

John Puma: 11:04
Mm.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:05
Is that the sakes that I think do well with longer term aging are going to be sakes that are higher in alcohol, rich and robust

John Puma: 11:15
Mm, so the lighter. More gentle, more delicate fruit ones that I have in my fridge. Most of the time.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:24
yep.

John Puma: 11:25
those who don’t wanna start very long

Timothy Sullivan: 11:28
My opinion, is that the lighter, very fragrant, floral, super elegant.

John Puma: 11:35
speaking my language.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:38
Those John Puma style sakes, in my opinion, I don’t think they do as well for long-term cold storage aging.

John Puma: 11:46
Yeah. I think they tend to be a little delicate.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:48
yeah, you can, the, the aroma compounds can. Get more subdued over time, the sake can get richer and less light and airy, and it changes not necessarily in a bad way for everyone, but it’s about what did the brewer intend with this sake? You can experiment with aging it, but you may end up with something that’s different from the Brewer’s intent for your experience.

John Puma: 12:13
I think that Brewer’s intent is very often the key word there.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:17
Brewers tend to release the sake when they’re ready for you to drink it. If they’re gonna age it, they usually age it in house at the brewery and release it as an aged sake. If they want it fresh and young, they’ll release it when it’s fresh and young. And of course, we’re all free to experiment with aging at home. But as a rule of thumb, I go towards those more Hardy, robust, rich, higher alcohol sakes. They’ve got the structure and the underpinnings to, you know, survive that longer term aging. And, uh, it’s fun to experiment. I have a few in the back of my sake, fridge right now that are aging away.

John Puma: 12:56
Excellent. Excellent. Nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:00
Now have you, have you seen the date on the label? People ask me questions about this too.

John Puma: 13:06
Yes. honestly, when I don’t see a date on a label, I get a little nervous because I don’t know how long it’s been sitting there and you know how it could be three, four years old. And if it’s so. Very delicate. I might be a little disappointed in it.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:21
Yeah. Now what, what is the date on the label?

John Puma: 13:24
That should be the far as I’m aware. That’s the bottling date, right?

Timothy Sullivan: 13:28
Yes. Excellent. That is the bottling date. So that’s when the sake is considered, I would say like released from the brewery and that’s starts, the clock ticking for most people. A lot of people say one year from that bottling date, what do you think about that?

John Puma: 13:49
I think that’s fair. I mean, uh, especially we are in the west. The sake that we get has traveled. It has been at sea most of the time. And it has then crossed the country in a lot of cases. It’s gone from, from the west coast to the east coast.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:11
Yes.

John Puma: 14:13
So by the time it gets here, It’s been around for a while. That trip takes time, especially with supply chain things, being what they are right now. Uh, they’ve gotten better everybody, but they’re still not a hundred percent. Um, so I think a year is good. Uh, I think that if you see something that’s under a year, that’s like, wow, fantastic. You know, I get excited. And when I see something that’s less than a year old so, we’ve got our sake. We’ve got it at home. I have now opened it up and somehow I have not finished this bottle.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:48
Yeah.

John Puma: 14:50
I imagine that my, the good sense is going to be to put that back in the fridge. Now that’s been opened, but how long what’s the rule of thumb on time for that?

Timothy Sullivan: 15:01
My answer in 3, 2, 1… it depends. so again, it depends on the style of sake we’re talking about. If you have those rich, bold hearty sakes are going to have the structure to last a lot longer. We’ve talked on the show before about indestructible sakes, right? They’re Hardy, they’re bold and there’s really not a lot you can do to them, to. Bring them down. So where we get into trouble is when we’re trying to preserve these light, delicate, airy, fruity aromas, those esters that come off the surface of the sake and give us those delicate tropical notes and floral notes. Those are a little harder to maintain and preserve. So. My advice is if you have them more fruity, floral, lighter Junmai Daiginjo style sake that you want to consume more quickly, and the aroma’s going to change more quickly. If you have those Hardy, earthy, robust sakes, those are gonna last for a while and you can keep those around. You can, don’t need to keep them in the fridge necessarily. You can treat them with a little less care.

John Puma: 16:27
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:28
still be there for you and still taste good.

John Puma: 16:31
All right. Fantastic.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:33
So it depends on the sake style.

John Puma: 16:36
Alright Tim, thank you very much for that little, uh, jaunt over to the sake education corner. I’m sorry that it was a little, um, a unkept, but you know, what can you do? having said that let’s taste some sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:50
John, we’re about to taste some sake that we have in our homes. I’m curious for you. What’s your sake storage situation at home? Do you keep it on the counter? Do you keep it in the fridge? What’s what what’s up with your place?

John Puma: 17:03
I have a sake fridge, uh, is a wine fridge, a wine chiller. we bought it on Amazon years ago. It has been, doing great work for us.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:14
I have a sake fridge as well, but mine is a repurposed beer fridge. So I didn’t buy a wine fridge. I bought a beer fridge. It’s like a half size college dorm, you know, fridge and I have a little thermometer in mine and mine gets down to about 48 degrees.

John Puma: 17:37
Oh, wow.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:39
So it’s not quite as I can’t get it quite as cold as yours.

John Puma: 17:43
mine can go to 38.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:44
Ooh. See, that’s that’s really good.

John Puma: 17:47
I think that 38 is a little too much chill. Lot. Most of the time on some of the more delicate stuff, it can lose a little bit. So I try to just keep it at 40. may be an all. Make it sounding like I know what I’m doing.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:00
Yeah. One other, one other quick note. About storage of sake in, in a dedicated fridge. You know, if you buy a wine fridge for storing sake in particular, one thing you wanna avoid is the trays that lie down. Do you have that? The, the horizontal storage

John Puma: 18:19
so mine shipped with those and for a while I used them like that, but, um, I realized. That I, I can actually put more sake in my fridge without those. So I removed all but one. And so now it’s just a BI level upstairs, downstairs situation in my fridge and everything stands upright.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:39
Yeah. So standing upright is the best thing to do for sake. Avoid wine fridges. If you want to use them for sake, that force you to lay the bottles down horizontally that’s ideal for wine that has a cork. But sake uses screw caps and other types of seals that we don’t need to keep moist with the, with the liquid touching them. And the way to minimize exposure to the little bit of oxygen that is in there is to keep the bottle standing upright on their end. So that is a key thing. When it comes to longer term storage at home,

John Puma: 19:14
Good to know. That is a, that is a pro tip, Tim. Thank you.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:17
That’s storage 2.0,

John Puma: 19:20
Yeah. Excellent. Excellent.

Timothy Sullivan: 19:22
All right. So we both went to our sake fridges and we grabbed a bottle we’re tasting different sakes today. So JP, tell me what sake did you pick to taste for our storage episode?

John Puma: 19:36
So today I’m gonna be drinking, some local New York sake. it’s the Brooklyn, Kura B Y X Yamahai Junmai. Now, B Y is like the brewing year, so brewing year X or whatever, this is actually their second year of the B Y X. So, uh, I’m gonna explain why that matters in a moment, but first let go through the rest of the numbers here. So this is a Junmai namachozo. So it’s once pasteurized. The rice is yamadanishiki milled to 50%. That’s for their Koji. And then the, uh, calrose is the rest of it milled down to 60%. And that’s the starch component. The kakemai they do this at Brooklyn kura for a lot of their sakes. the, ABV is 17.4. So this is a pretty Hearty one. and is a Yamahai as you mentioned, as I mentioned earlier. So, uh, probably a stronger flavor. The acidity is 1.9, which is a, a touch high, and the sake meter value that measure of, um, Dryness to sweetness is plus five. So a touch on the dry side of things now regarding this Yamahai what they wanted to do is they wanted to try and have a little bit bit of the essence of their brewery. into the batch. And I think we talked about this, a little bit when we were talking about, Tamagawa, many episodes ago. And you know, one of the things about their ambient yeast is just like the walls and everything like that just has it. And so what they’re doing at, Brooklyn Kura is they have a, a Norwegian yeast wreath, which is something that’s usually used for beer, I believe. And they have that just hanging in the brewery over the tanks and they collect yeast on that. And. Drop that in when they’re making this sake. And so it’s a fun, interesting take on the idea of that ambient yeast and they’re borrowing from another culture’s, beer making to do it. I think it’s really a fun, a fun, interesting way to, tackle that.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:55
Yes. And there’s no brewers in Japan using a Norwegian yeast micro

John Puma: 22:00
met.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:01
ring. we haven’t met. it. Yeah. So that is, that is some cross-cultural integration there.

John Puma: 22:08
totally. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 22:10
Interesting.

John Puma: 22:11
Yeah. And what about you, Tim? What do you

Timothy Sullivan: 22:12
Well, I’m much more traditional here. but our sakes do have some similarities, which is kind of interesting. So I have a beautiful sake from Shizuoka Prefecture in Japan. It’s called Wakatake and I have their Tokubetsu Junmai Genshu. So you have a higher alcohol sake and I do as well. I am also right around 17 and a half percent. And again, I have a Tokubetsu Junmai. genshu no water added at the time of bottling. So this is kind of a full strength sake. The rice for mine is gohyakumangoku polished down to 60%. It uses Shizuoka yeast. Number two, SMV plus nine and acidity 1.6. So we featured the Wakatake brand on the show before I think we tasted the Junmai Daiginjo, which is a very well known sake here in New York, in the green square bottle, but this is their Junmai version. And, uh, yeah, so that’s the, uh, that’s the sake that I picked up the brewery name is Oomuraya Shuzojo. that’s the makers of the wakatake brand.

John Puma: 23:32
Wonderful. Wonderful. So without any further ado, let’s

Timothy Sullivan: 23:37
Get these.

John Puma: 23:37
get our ASMR. All right, Tim, me. Junmai

Timothy Sullivan: 23:54
Well, first of all, if you had this sake at home before I smell or taste it, I wanted to talk really briefly about how I would store this sake. So this is a twice pasteurized sake. It’s 17 and a half percent alcohol. So this is a sake that I would store in the fridge if I had the room and the space. But if I didn’t. This could sit out in a cool dark place elsewhere. And I think it would be absolutely fine. Um, so this is one of those sakes where I think you have a little bit of flexibility about the storage, but whenever possible as an insurance policy, I just throw all of my sakes in the fridge.

John Puma: 24:39
It’s it’s good to have a, a blanket policy. I think

Timothy Sullivan: 24:42
yes, yes. And to keep my marriage happy. I did have to get a second fridge to keep my growing sake collection away from the broccoli.

John Puma: 24:55
I think that makes sense. I think that is a, is a smart way to do it.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:00
All right. Well, let’s give this a smell. This is again, the Wakatake Tokubetsu Junmai. So it’s got some soft, gentle rice notes and a little bit of lactic character kind of coming across as a classic Junmai and, uh, yeah, really lovely, soft, gentle. They’re known for their very gentle profile and they have some of the softest water in Japan. Shizuoka gets very, very soft water. Okay. Let’s give it a taste. Hmm. So this really has a rice driven body to it. So that Gohyakumangoku flavor, which is generally lighter and airy really takes the center stage here. So if you like sakes that have a smooth body to them, really gentle, but have. Rice flavor, permeating the palate spreading across the palate. This is really right up your alley. If you like that super gentle, approachable sake, rice flavor, classic. Junmai really good. And this is a sake that I want to pair with Izakaya food.

John Puma: 26:19
Ooh.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:21
So this would be a lovely, easy drinking izakaya companion, I think. Yeah. Yeah. So how about you? I’m super interested about this Yamahai Norwegian yeast ring.

John Puma: 26:37
The cultural mashup. Yeah. So the nose. It has that aroma, that. It makes me immediately think of acidity. Like when I, or like, um, you know, that those high acid Yamahai like this, like you get that, that on the nose and you’re immediately like, oh, I, I know this

Timothy Sullivan: 26:55
does it smell like funky, like earthy or is it more

John Puma: 27:00
earthy. No, like I said, a little bit Rice-y, but it’s got that. It’s got that little like, that sour nose, you know, it’s like a little tiny bit of sourness on the nose. Oh my goodness. But the flavor is adventure. There is depth and complexity here. This is definitely, uh, definitely for your friends who, uh, who like to maybe age things a little bit, or like to kind of keep things on the shelf. In fact, I bet this would be, uh, really nice. A few degrees warmer. I also don’t think there’s a lot of, there’s not a lot of Yamahai that gets made here.

Timothy Sullivan: 27:38
Mm.

John Puma: 27:39
And so, you know, having this here and having them kind of do it in this is interesting and different way. Uh it’s it’s a fun sake at a drink. It’s very interesting. As far as food goes, this is a Yamahai through and through. So you can probably have a lot of fun with it. You can, um, probably throw almost anything at this and it’s going to gonna cooperate quite nicely. the American dishes, I think out there, you can probably, you can probably have this with, with a, have this with a burger. I think I would

Timothy Sullivan: 28:10
Hmm.

John Puma: 28:10
burger with this.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:12
Hmm. How is it on like the sweet to dry scale for you?

John Puma: 28:17
with the plus five and that 1.9 acidity, it, it does present. A bit dry. Um, it doesn’t have that crisp finish

Timothy Sullivan: 28:28
Mm-hmm

John Puma: 28:29
It’s definitely it’s so it’s not, not necessarily in my comfort zone, we’ll say, but it is a

Timothy Sullivan: 28:33
Hmm.

John Puma: 28:33
tasty sake. Well, Tim, thank you so much for that, uh, that little jaunt.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:38
All right, John, it’s been great to taste with you. I feel like we have covered every square inch of sake storage.

John Puma: 28:46
too many square.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:49
But, uh, it’s all for a good cause it’s for people to enjoy their sake more. And what is more important than.

John Puma: 28:57
Uh, very little

Timothy Sullivan: 28:59
All right. Well, fabulous to taste with you. I want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. Thank you so much for joining us again this week and a special shout out. Hey and hello. To all of our patrons. We love our community over on Patreon. If you’d like to learn more. What’s happening over on Patreon and supporting sake revolution with a monthly contribution. Visit patreon.com/SakeRevolution to learn more.

John Puma: 29:29
And if you have, sake related questions, I think they should be sake related, right? Yeah. Okay. Uh, so sake related questions that you need answered, you can reach us at Feedback@SakeRevolution.com. You can also, uh, reach out to us on most forms of social media, and we will get back to you. Sometimes it takes a few days, but we will get back to you. but yes, on until next time. Thank you all for coming. Please raise a glass. Remember to keep drinking sake and Kanpai.