Episode 190 Show Notes
Episode 190. Honjozo sometimes gets a bad rap. Somewhere along the way, “added alcohol” sake became viewed skeptically by some and Junmai sake wound up with all the glory. On Episode 190, John and Tim go back to basics to mount a defense of honjozo because as John puts it, “ginjo doesn’t need a hero”. In the glass we are sipping Atago no Matsu Tokubetsu Honjozo from Niizawa Jozo in Miyagi, a bottle that quietly flexes Grade A Yamadanishiki from Hyogo milled all the way down to 60%. It drinks like it — creamy, grippy, gently nutty, with a dryness that never raises its voice. Along the way we talk about what tokubetsu means and why exactly is it that Honjozo grade sakes are less common to find in the U.S. vs. in Japan. Join us as we go back to basics on honjozo and BYO Tonkatsu!
#SakeRevolution
Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy
Skip to: 04:17 Back to Basics: Honjozo
Skip to: 11:03 Sake Tasting: Atago no Matsu Tokubetsu Honjozo
Atago no Matsu Tokubetsu Honjozo
Brewery: Niizawa Jozoten
Prefecture: Miyagi prefecture
Classification: Honjozo
Seimaibuai: 60%
Rice Type: Yamadanishiki
SMV: 5
Alcohol: 16.0%
Acidity: 1.7
Brand: Atago no Matsu
Skip to: 36:03 Show Closing
This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!
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Episode 190 Transcript
[00:00:20] John Puma: All right. Hello, everybody, and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast. On the show, we’ve got two hosts. I’m one of them. My name is John Puma. I also am a guy over at the Sake Notes also. I am the guy who started the Internet Sake Discord.
[00:00:37] John Puma: And, uh, thirdly, I am the lead mod over at Reddit’s r/sake community
[00:00:43] Timothy Sullivan: And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m the director of education at the Sake Studies Center, and I’m the founder of the Urban Sake website. And we are so excited to be here with you regularly talking about sake [00:01:00] doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand
[00:01:03] Timothy Sullivan: hey, John. How you doing?
[00:01:04] John Puma: Ah, you know, it’s another day. It’s a beautiful day in sake land.
[00:01:10] Timothy Sullivan: It sure is, and this is our second video
[00:01:14] John Puma: It is our second video podcast, and I promise that it will have fewer problems than the first that’s my two cents. It’s my promise to myself.
[00:01:24] Timothy Sullivan: I’m looking on the bright side. I think we did great, and we’re– it’s gonna get better and better. So I, I am full of optimism here,
[00:01:31] John Puma: Full of optimism
[00:01:33] Timothy Sullivan: I am, and I’m super excited for today’s topics. We are going to something that was my, uh, resolution last year,
[00:01:42] John Puma: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well
[00:01:45] Timothy Sullivan: So we are going to talk about something that is back to basics that I’m super excited,
[00:01:50] John Puma: Yeah
[00:01:51] Timothy Sullivan: I’m, I’m happy to say this was your idea to bring this back to the table
[00:01:54] John Puma: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like, um, we’ve got, yeah, we’ve got some, like, myths that we need to [00:02:00] bust, uh, myths that we need to slay. Um, a- and one of those myths is that, like, honjozo is somehow inferior sake and not as good or as pure as Junmai or, or other sakes of that ilk. And, and I just want to say that, um, I’m personally offended by that comment.
[00:02:21] John Puma: And, uh, it’s something I’ve been, like, kind of, uh, brewing, no pun, uh, in the back of my head for a while. And then recently I was at a tasting event, and I had a conversation with a brewer, and led me through, his, his vertical, and I felt that his honjozo was, like, my favorite, uh, thing at the table. And Tim, I will tell you, this man poured me an omachi, and I still thought the honjozo was the best thing at the table.
[00:02:57] John Puma: And so after we were chatting about it, I was like, “You know, the [00:03:00] honjozo really is, like, incredible.” And, and I told him, like, “I think that honjozo gets a lit- a bit of a bad rap in the US, and people don’t appreciate it as much as they should.” And his response was,
[00:03:14] John Puma: ” It is same in Japan.”
[00:03:18] Timothy Sullivan: Heavy si- heavy sigh.
[00:03:20] John Puma: yeah, heavy sigh. And he also, he, he really liked, uh, his honjozo as well, which I think he probably likes all of his sake. And, uh, but yeah. And I was like, you know, that I kinda, I– it’s something I already wanted to do, and then it just doubled down my, like, “No, it has to happen. We need to clear the air on honjozo and, uh, get people to appreciate it for the wonderful sake that it is.”
[00:03:43] Timothy Sullivan: I, I am, like, shocked that John Puma is a hon- honjozo evangelist. Like, this was
[00:03:50] Timothy Sullivan: not on my bingo card.
[00:03:51] John Puma: Captain Ginjo himself. But, you know, I think that, uh, you’re not wrong. That is a [00:04:00] little surprising. Uh, but at the same time, you know, I think that, uh, I’m an equal opportunity sake enthusiast, even though I have my personal preferences. Nobody’s, nobody’s talking mess about ginjo. Ginjo doesn’t need a hero.
[00:04:15] John Puma: Everybody’s ginjo’s hero.
[00:04:16] Timothy Sullivan: All right. let’s define honjozo to get started. So honjozo, first of all, is one of the types of sake that has distilled alcohol added. So it’s, uh, some might say fortified or distilled alcohol-added sake. So that’s the first part of the definition. And the second part of the definition for honjozo is that the rice used to brew the sake must, must be milled down to 70% or less of the grain remaining. So to get into the honjozo category, the rice has to be milled to a minimum of 70% or less remaining. So those are the two aspects of honjozo that [00:05:00] really define what it is. uh, you know, the entry level to premium.
[00:05:07] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:05:07] Timothy Sullivan: when you talk about the premium grades and you’re talking about the alcohol-added style, you really start at honjozo.
[00:05:14] Timothy Sullivan: So, know, you talked about it being looked down upon, maybe not respected as much, and that’s because it’s at the entry level to what is considered premium
[00:05:23] John Puma: People don’t look down on Junmai, and that’s the other entry-level premium sake.
[00:05:31] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah. So, you know, in, in the US, another point that I think is really important is that alcohol-added sakes and the Junmai pure rice sakes, get taxed in a different category. So Honjozo, Ginjo, and Daiginjo, the alcohol-added styles, get taxed at a higher rate because they have distilled alcohol added to them.
[00:05:52] Timothy Sullivan: So we have fewer of them in the States. So for the listeners who are in the US and [00:06:00] are interested in buying a Honjozo, the selection versus Junmai is actually a lot less. Have, have you noticed that, like, shopping around?
[00:06:07] John Puma: Yes. , It is, uh, it is, it’s kind of rare, , in the US. And, and then also, like on the, on the brewing side of things for, for North American breweries, it’s like very tricky to get done. Uh, so yeah. It gets a little weird
[00:06:25] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah, and you know, some, since we’re going back to basics for this episode, talking about what honjozo is, we know it’s alcohol added, we know the rice is milled to 70% or less, kinda what, what can you expect from the taste or the flavor of sake that’s a honjozo style? Do you have any kinda taste notes that you go back to for honjozo in general?
[00:06:49] John Puma: Hmm. I mean, I think that they’re generally, like, I think body-wise, I think I get a little bit more, uh, a little more, little [00:07:00] thickness, a little heavier body out of a honjozo as opposed to a very similar Junmai, a similarly specced Junmai. Um, that’s like what, what I usually think of. It’s just kind of, it’s, it, it coats the, coats the palate a little bit more, coats the mouth a little bit more.
[00:07:14] John Puma: Not like, we’re not talking like the way a nigori coats your mouth. We’re talking about how just like a, like a, like a, just like a thicker wine kinda does that too. And, and that’s, that’s kind of where my head goes, and it’s not always gonna be the case, but it is just like w- what my initial impression often is.
[00:07:32] John Puma: Uh, what about you, Tim? What do, what do you usually think of?
[00:07:34] Timothy Sullivan: Well, I, I want to mention what you said was so important because you talked about the texture first,
[00:07:39] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:40] Timothy Sullivan: I think that when you add distilled alcohol to sake and you make a Honjozo or a ginjo or a Daiginjo, it really does affect the texture. And I’ve found that sakes, Honjozos tend to have a rounder texture, more mouth-coating.
[00:07:55] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:07:56] Timothy Sullivan: the palate more. It’s a little grippy and, uh, [00:08:00] more rich on the palate, and I think that comes from that added ingredient of dist- uh,
[00:08:05] John Puma: Hmm. I like that grippy as a descriptor. I’m going to steal that in the future.
[00:08:12] Timothy Sullivan: Yes, you can steal my grippy,
[00:08:14] John Puma: Ooh.
[00:08:15] Timothy Sullivan: you, I raise you a rich, rich texture. No, I’m
[00:08:18] John Puma: Ah, I thought I said thick. Ah, whatever. Anyway, so I just– The, the words just come out, Tim. It doesn’t always come out the way we want them to, though.
[00:08:27] Timothy Sullivan: That’s right.
[00:08:27] John Puma: Yes
[00:08:28] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah, so, uh, I also think that the added alcohol does bring that texture, but it also is, because it’s the entry level to premium, you tend to get more full-bodied textures as well.
[00:08:41] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:42] Timothy Sullivan: there are richer bodies, uh, more, more full-bodied type of tastes, and it can be a little weightier.
[00:08:49] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:50] Timothy Sullivan: that lines up really well for pairing with a lot of heavier, like deep-fried foods in particular.
[00:08:56] Timothy Sullivan: Like, if you go to an izakaya you have some [00:09:00] deep-fried foods or okonomiyaki or something rich and heavy, honjozo is a great choice for that, ’cause it has the weight to stand up to it
[00:09:08] John Puma: Yes. And I, I’m pretty sure I talked about this on the show in the past, but one of my favorite, uh, tonkotsu ramen pairings is the Hakkaisan Honjozo, ‘ ramen is very, very thick and it’s very flavorful and there’s a lot of, it’s very creamy, and I think that the, uh, the Hakkaisan kind of cuts through all of that and, and is, and, and lets you, like, get ready to reset for another, another mouthful of noodles.
[00:09:35] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah.
[00:09:36] John Puma: Yeah.
[00:09:36] Timothy Sullivan: I, I just wrote an essay, uh, it is June of 2026. I just wrote an essay for the, uh, this month’s
[00:09:47] John Puma: Aha
[00:09:47] Timothy Sullivan: of the True Sake newsletter.
[00:09:49] John Puma: Ah, an essay
[00:09:50] Timothy Sullivan: Sake, yeah, he does a newsletter every month. He’s been doing it for, like, over 200 weeks. He’s… Or sorry, over 200 [00:10:00] months he’s been doing this newsletter, and he asked me to
[00:10:02] John Puma: Hmm
[00:10:03] Timothy Sullivan: uh, an article about the, uh, Hakkaisan Tokubetsu Honjozo. And so if you wanna go to True Sake and check that out, uh, I wrote about some of my experiences working at Hakkaisan and, uh, some of the employees’ reactions to that. So that is one of the quintessential honjozos that’s out there on the market.
[00:10:23] John Puma: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree.
[00:10:26] Timothy Sullivan: not gonna
[00:10:26] John Puma: yeah,
[00:10:27] Timothy Sullivan: tasting
[00:10:27] John Puma: like, but are we gonna taste that today? No.
[00:10:29] Timothy Sullivan: No.
[00:10:30] John Puma: That would’ve been too easy. Um, that would’ve been way too easy. Uh, but what we are gonna be tasting is probably my favorite honjozo, so, so I’m excited.
[00:10:44] Timothy Sullivan: Absolutely
[00:10:45] John Puma: you want, do you want me to just get into that or do you wanna talk a little bit more about, uh,
[00:10:49] Timothy Sullivan: No, I
[00:10:49] John Puma: about-
[00:10:49] Timothy Sullivan: covered about, uh, what to expect from the flavor.
[00:10:53] John Puma: Great
[00:10:53] Timothy Sullivan: talked about some pairing ideas. Let’s talk about the honjozo that you picked to taste [00:11:00] today,
[00:11:00] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:11:01] Timothy Sullivan: uh, let us know the name of the sake and give us the stats for that one
[00:11:04] John Puma: All right. So today’s sake, drum roll, is, um, At- is, um, Atago No Matsu Tokubetsu Honjozo. To, this is, to my knowledge, the only time I have personally experienced the term tokubetsu honjozo. And tokubetsu, if you are familiar with your Junmais, uh, it basically means special, and it, it usually means they did something a little bit interesting or different with the sake.
[00:11:34] John Puma: We’ll get into what that is in this case in a moment. But, uh, this sake comes from, uh, Niizawa, Jozo Ten, uh, which is over in, uh, Miyagi Prefecture in, uh, Tohoku. And, uh, you may, if you’re like, “Man, Niizawa, that sounds really familiar, but I don’t know this, uh, Atago No Matsu name. , What, uh, why do I know this brewery?”
[00:11:55] John Puma: You know this brewery because they are also the people who make Hakurakusei, a [00:12:00] renowned, uh, food-friendly, they say the ultimate food sake. R- um, that is why you know that, that brewery. Um, so in this case, like what, what makes this sake special is, uh, and we’re gonna get into the stats in a minute, and the stats are where we’re gonna find some of that specialness, and that is that they are using Grade A Yamadanishiki from Hyogo, milled down to 60%.
[00:12:28] John Puma: They’re doing it. They’re, they’re making a honjozo, but they are pulling out the big gun rice. They’re going to Hyogo. They’re getting some of that Grade A king of sake rice, and they’re making a honjozo out of it, and that makes it very special. the sake meter value, that, uh, measure of your dryness to your sweetness, is plus seven, so I’d say this is notably dry, or is going to be notably dry.
[00:12:52] John Puma: Acidity is 1.6, and your alcohol by volume is, uh, 15 and one half. So, you [00:13:00] know, very, very good stuff. Um, and if I’m not mistaken, this is also not charcoal-filtered,
[00:13:06] Timothy Sullivan: yeah, so you’re right. So Niizawa Jozo Ten has two brands. It has several brands, but it has two really
[00:13:13] John Puma: For, for purposes of this conversation, they have two brands
[00:13:16] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah, so Atago no Matsu is the principal brand that kinda dates back to the founding of the brewery, it refers to a pine at the foot, or a pine tree that has roots in Mount Atago. So there’s a mountain near the brewery, Mount Atago, and, uh, matsu means pine or pine tree. So it’s like a pine that’s rooting in their local mountain. And this is their classic old-school brand that’s been around forever, and the brewery was founded in 1873. and the second brand is [00:14:00] Hakurakusei, as you said before, and this one was introduced in 2002. This is their more modern brand, and as you said, they do very much the catchphrase that their sake the ultimate food sake. when we taste this, we’re gonna look out for that. Would this pair well with food? Uh, it’s something that they hold really closely to, uh, their hearts as when they, when they promote their brand, the ultimate food sake
[00:14:30] John Puma: Excellent, excellent. Um, and, and I have to take a moment here and talk about the label here. And since we are on a video podcast, I can show you the label, ’cause this has one of the wildest labels I think I’ve ever seen on a sake bottle. Um, it’s just got stickers everywhere. So here we are. This is the, um, this is the Atago No Matsu bottle label.[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] John Puma: And you see we’ve got this, this big kind of like old school, I’d say, it’s a very old school primary label here. And then, um, we’ve got, we’ve got, uh, a sticker here. We’ve got a neck sticker there, and then we’ve got a sash that goes across the entire thing, and then another one up here higher on the neck.
[00:15:20] John Puma: They put all the stickers on this bottle. And, um, yeah, one of them is explaining that it was pasteurized once. Another one is giving, giving you the recommended serving temperature. Uh, the, the neck one is just kind of telling you the brand again. You usually see neck labels like this on, like, really big bottles of sake, like the, the Issho-bin.
[00:15:41] John Puma: You don’t really see them on the tiny guys very much. Uh, and then, you know, you’ve got your big, like, this is what this is, uh, sash sticker. So you can’t miss this one. If this is, you see this in a liquor store, you know you found the, the Atago No Matsu Tokubetsu Honjozo. That’s it. The Tokubetsu stands for the number of stickers.
[00:15:59] John Puma: It’s [00:16:00] very special.
[00:16:02] Timothy Sullivan: Now, what does tokubetsu really stand for? Well, I’ll tell you real quick. So tokubetsu does mean special, and in the case of this sake, when you polish your rice to ginjo quality, that’s the grade that is more premium than honjozo. So if you polish your rice into ginjo territory, and this just makes it at 60%, you have the option as a producer to label your sake as a tokubetsu special honjozo when you’ve milled to technically the, the more premium category. So they’ve chosen to sell this in honjozo, but alert consumers, alert us that the milling is more premium by calling it tokubetsu. that’s really where the comes in, although it is very special to have all these stickers, too.
[00:16:50] John Puma: It’s also, it’s also very special to have, like, Tokuei Yamada from, uh, from Hyogo in your, in your honjozo. I think that’s very nice, So let’s open this [00:17:00] up
[00:17:01] Timothy Sullivan: All right. So is, uh, a, a lot of stickers here, as you said, but it is very old school as well,
[00:17:13] John Puma: Yeah. It’s, yeah, it’s very, uh, Showa era in the, the main, the main front sticker is very, uh, very old school. Harking back to the days of yore. All right
[00:17:29] Timothy Sullivan: Okay, I’ve got my sake poured
[00:17:31] John Puma: Yeah. I haven’t tasted this in a while. I’m very excited. Uh, I’ve got mine as well. Ba da. So Tim, I think you, you might have, uh, poured a little bit heavier than I did. Congratulations.
[00:17:43] Timothy Sullivan: W- That would not be the first time that’s happened.
[00:17:47] Timothy Sullivan: Uh
[00:17:47] John Puma: usually I th- I take the lead.
[00:17:50] Timothy Sullivan: Hmm.
[00:17:51] John Puma: but I, uh, I, you know, this reflects his excitement, I think.
[00:17:56] Timothy Sullivan: Yes.
[00:17:57] John Puma: Yes
[00:17:58] Timothy Sullivan: looking at the sake [00:18:00] in the glass,
[00:18:01] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:01] Timothy Sullivan: we have a not totally crystal diamond clear, in
[00:18:09] John Puma: Right.
[00:18:09] Timothy Sullivan: a hint of color here.
[00:18:11] John Puma: Mm-hmm
[00:18:11] Timothy Sullivan: think you mentioned that, uh, this is a muroka sake, not charcoal filtered, and that little tinge of straw color can come from that.
[00:18:20] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:21] Timothy Sullivan: be the muroka showing, that little tinge of,
[00:18:25] John Puma: Yeah
[00:18:26] Timothy Sullivan: straw color.
[00:18:27] Timothy Sullivan: Do you see that as well in your
[00:18:28] John Puma: I do, I do.
[00:18:29] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah.
[00:18:30] John Puma: Uh, my, my trick that I always do here, which I can’t really show you guys even though we are on video, is I will, I bring up a, a pure white, uh, image on my screen. Usually it’s an empty notepad, and I’ll hold the glass up in front of my screen, and it’ll tell me exactly how,
[00:18:46] Timothy Sullivan: Hmm.
[00:18:47] John Puma: how clear the sake is or isn’t.
[00:18:50] John Puma: Um, and yeah, this is just a touch, just a touch, uh, yellowed
[00:18:56] Timothy Sullivan: All right
[00:18:59] John Puma: Hmm. [00:19:00] How about that aroma though, Tim?
[00:19:03] Timothy Sullivan: Hmm. I mean, to me it smells very ricey and almost a little nutty. Are you getting anything kind of like nutty?
[00:19:12] John Puma: Hmm. Uh, very lightly
[00:19:15] Timothy Sullivan: P- peanutty. S- it smells like rice-y rice, uh, steamed rice, but also like peanut shells a little for me, like a little nutty smell.
[00:19:26] John Puma: Hmm.
[00:19:26] Timothy Sullivan: Very, very nice
[00:19:27] John Puma: I see where you’re going with that, but for me, I’m getting kind of like, it’s like definitely the rice, definitely that sweet rice, but I’m getting a tiny hint of fruit, and not like pineapples or not the ginjo kasha so much, but more of like a berry kind of thing. It’s very faint
[00:19:47] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah. I mean, the aroma overall is pretty restrained, wouldn’t you
[00:19:51] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:51] Timothy Sullivan: Like, it’s
[00:19:52] John Puma: Oh, yeah
[00:19:52] Timothy Sullivan: not super earthy. There’s not much umami coming through. It’s like, it’s like pretty, pretty restrained and quiet.
[00:19:59] John Puma: Yeah. And [00:20:00] I, and I think that from your, sakemeter value plus seven, I think sometimes that you get a little more subdued on the aroma,
[00:20:06] Timothy Sullivan: Hmm.
[00:20:06] John Puma: uh, from the really dry stuff. Not always, but sometimes. Hmm. Very nice though
[00:20:14] Timothy Sullivan: All right. Are we ready to taste?
[00:20:17] John Puma: I’m ready to taste
[00:20:18] Timothy Sullivan: All right. Cheers Hmm. That’s really good
[00:20:29] John Puma: It’s great. It’s a really, really tasty sake, and
[00:20:33] Timothy Sullivan: Hmm
[00:20:34] John Puma: don’t let, don’t let that plus seven fool you. This is not, to me, it’s not coming off as overwhelmingly dry, but it is, it’s dry. But it’s not a dominant dryness
[00:20:46] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah. It, it has this texture to it that to me is super honjozo-esque. It is, uh, like, I, I wanna say creamy. Like, I don’t want you to think nigori or anything, but it’s got [00:21:00] this creamy texture to it. Uh, it, it spread, rolls across the palate. It’s got a richness and a chewiness, and that comes from the added alcohol, I think.
[00:21:12] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:13] Timothy Sullivan: Um, the rice really comes forward on the palate, and it has a very elegant earthiness to it
[00:21:20] John Puma: Mm-hmm. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. There is a, and, and the very finish there can be, after you’ve had a few sips at least, in my experience, um, there is a, a little heat that builds up, a little bit of that,
[00:21:31] Timothy Sullivan: Hmm.
[00:21:32] John Puma: a little bit of that, that alcohol heat., But by and large, if you’re sipping and pacing yourself, it actually presents very elegantly.
[00:21:42] Timothy Sullivan: Hmm. I
[00:21:42] John Puma: Hmm
[00:21:43] Timothy Sullivan: don’t, I don’t get too much heat. I, I think it’s, it’s got really good balance, and again, I’m getting the aftertaste for me,
[00:21:53] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:54] Timothy Sullivan: interpretation, my impression is that it has something a little nutty. So it’s like, [00:22:00] if you think about, you know, brown rice can have that kind of nutty taste to
[00:22:03] John Puma: Yes
[00:22:04] Timothy Sullivan: it’s kind of like that. It’s, it’s this
[00:22:06] John Puma: Hmm.
[00:22:07] Timothy Sullivan: that I’m, I’m picking up on, and, uh, it’s, it’s really, uh, so fantastic, ’cause it has just this very subtle earthiness. you say earthy, you think like kaboom, like punch you in the face, but
[00:22:22] John Puma: Yeah
[00:22:23] Timothy Sullivan: is like very subtle and gentle, balanced.
[00:22:26] John Puma: Hmm.
[00:22:27] Timothy Sullivan: come back to that, don’t we? Like, the balance is so important.
[00:22:31] John Puma: Yeah. I think that, like, you can have so many different, um, styles and so many different flavors, uh, but when something’s out of balance, it’s just kind of like the whole thing just feels off. , But yeah, I- this is really, really tasty. And, uh, you know, obviously, I think this is a, a, a sake that’s gonna go great with a meal, but I also think that this is incredibly sippable. You can just drink this and relax, [00:23:00] kick back. This is a wonderful John Puma on the couch sake. And John Puma has experience on the couch with this sake.
[00:23:07] Timothy Sullivan: I’m a little surprised. I
[00:23:09] John Puma: Mm.
[00:23:09] Timothy Sullivan: more i- like the, the tropical fruity ginjo style,
[00:23:13] John Puma: I mean, I am, but this is fine. I, uh, Tim, you’re not wrong. I absolutely am that kind of guy, guilty as charged. But I also really enjoy this and would love to sip it on the couch.
[00:23:26] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah.
[00:23:26] John Puma: That’s all I’m saying
[00:23:27] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah, it’s very drinkable. Now, do you think it’s the ultimate food sake? What would you pair with this?
[00:23:33] John Puma: Hmm. By the way, for the record, I think that was the Hakurakusei. That’s the ultimate, uh, food sake.
[00:23:40] Timothy Sullivan: Well, I think they, I think they apply it to their
[00:23:43] John Puma: So the whole thing, all right. So they get grand- this one gets grandfathered in because it’s like the original brand? Hmm.
[00:23:49] Timothy Sullivan: Yes.
[00:23:52] John Puma: So I’m going to say I want something a little bit oily. [00:24:00] Um, I want… I re- I think I might want like, um, a shrimp scampi with this maybe.
[00:24:09] Timothy Sullivan: Shrimp. All
[00:24:10] John Puma: yeah. Like a s- shrimp with pasta and a little bit of, um, you know, like just a little, little garlic and oil and stuff like that with it and some, you know…
[00:24:20] John Puma: Or maybe, maybe pesto would be nice with this too
[00:24:23] Timothy Sullivan: Hmm.
[00:24:23] John Puma: What about you? What do you think?
[00:24:25] Timothy Sullivan: Oh, well, I, I think there’s a very subtle restrained umami here, savoriness. And I think that anything that has that little hint of umami, like any dishes, like a brown rice rice bowl,
[00:24:40] John Puma: Hmm.
[00:24:41] Timothy Sullivan: uh,
[00:24:41] John Puma: Real- okay. All right
[00:24:43] Timothy Sullivan: like that. Yeah, like that nuttiness from brown rice I think would work really well with this.
[00:24:47] John Puma: Salmon, salmon will get along famously here. I think that was a good call
[00:24:51] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah. I also think anything with, uh, like a, a dashi or a soy sauce
[00:24:57] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:24:58] Timothy Sullivan: is gonna be really good [00:25:00] with this. and, you know, you could even get into, like, pork chops or, uh, any, uh, white meat is gonna be great with this, I think, because it, it has just enough savoriness to be
[00:25:16] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:16] Timothy Sullivan: good with, uh, those, uh, gentle umami, uh, of, uh, meats and sauces that are really great. the other thing I’m really craving now that I think about it is, like, tonkatsu fried pork
[00:25:31] John Puma: Yeah.
[00:25:32] Timothy Sullivan: the tonkatsu sauce.
[00:25:33] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:35] Timothy Sullivan: that’s like my favorite thing in the
[00:25:37] John Puma: Really?
[00:25:37] Timothy Sullivan: that when I go to Japan.
[00:25:38] John Puma: I had no idea you had a, uh, a tonkatsu thing
[00:25:43] Timothy Sullivan: John, I’m, I’m so happy after five years you’re, we’re still learning things about each other.
[00:25:47] Timothy Sullivan: I
[00:25:48] John Puma: Of course.
[00:25:52] Timothy Sullivan: Yes.
[00:25:53] John Puma: true.
[00:25:54] Timothy Sullivan: Ugh, I’m glad I can still surprise you after all
[00:25:56] John Puma: Ah, yes.
[00:25:59] Timothy Sullivan: [00:26:00] No, do you, do you like tonkatsu as well? It’s, like, one of my favorite
[00:26:02] John Puma: I do like it. I don’t like it as, as much as you do.
[00:26:04] Timothy Sullivan: Okay
[00:26:05] John Puma: not usually wild about the tonkatsu sauce as much, but, um, but if you give me some… Yeah, I- it’s a little surprising. Uh, but if you give me tonkatsu with some curry perhaps, with Japanese curry, it’s, you know, it’s like the pairing. You know, it’s, you have your curry rice with your, pork fi- pork cutlet on top of it.
[00:26:29] John Puma: Oh my gosh, that’s really good
[00:26:31] Timothy Sullivan: that’s so good. And that would pair great with this sake as well too. Like curry tonkatsu would be amazing with this.
[00:26:37] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:38] Timothy Sullivan: we may have come to the conclusion that this is the ultimate food sake.
[00:26:42] John Puma: Perhaps, perhaps. Although my hankering for, uh, shrimp has not gone away, just for the record. I, I can still, I can still go for the, the shrimp dish of my people.
[00:26:53] John Puma: Uh, so yeah, that was a lot of fun. That was really good. It’s tasty, tasty sake. And,[00:27:00]
[00:27:00] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah
[00:27:01] John Puma: and I hope that, that some listeners are gonna be like, “Oh, wait a minute, honjozo.” I’m sorry, did I say listeners? Viewers. Some viewers might be like, “Wait a minute, honjozo.” “Maybe I need to try some of that. Maybe it’s not as bad as I’ve heard.”
[00:27:19] John Puma: And I do, I do think that part of the honjozo stigma, , comes from, like in recent years there was this thing about just like pure rice and like Junmai being a very, , being, uh, a, a, a p- more, , true representation of sake. And, you know, I think that’s just, you know, big Junmai getting out there,
[00:27:44] John Puma: and, and, you know, I think to a certain extent it’s, it’s, it’s gotten some, uh, traction, and I think that poor honjozo and then the aroten sakes have been left in the dust by it
[00:27:57] Timothy Sullivan: Hmm. Yeah. Well, like I [00:28:00] mentioned, there’s, there’s just fewer of them here in the States,
[00:28:02] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:03] Timothy Sullivan: an uphill battle. But
[00:28:05] John Puma: Yeah.
[00:28:06] Timothy Sullivan: that we’re highlighting them,
[00:28:07] John Puma: Yeah
[00:28:08] Timothy Sullivan: uh, this is a great example to get started with
[00:28:10] John Puma: Yeah. I do wonder, like, what percentage of sake that comes to the United States is actually, uh, honjozo, uh, and then how much… Because I, I did some research on the Japanese side of things, and it seems like it’s, like, 40% or 50% honjozo, uh, in J- in Japan. That is not counting… That’s only for premium sake.
[00:28:31] John Puma: So if you were to count, futsu-shu, you’d get to, like, 70%, I think, or 80%. Uh, it gets really high up there. But if you, if you don’t include that category, it scales back to, like, 40, 50. that’s my, my little bit of knowledge for the week.
[00:28:50] John Puma: , Now Tim, before we go anywhere, I have to ask you something ’cause I haven’t asked you this in a very long time
[00:28:59] John Puma: [00:29:00] NiiZawa
[00:29:00] Timothy Sullivan: Yes
[00:29:01] John Puma: Have you been there?
[00:29:03] Timothy Sullivan: John,
[00:29:04] John Puma: You have this twinkle in your eye.
[00:29:06] Timothy Sullivan: not only have I been there, but I’ve actually worked there
[00:29:16] John Puma: Wait a second. How about that, Tim? All these years later, we’re still learning things about each other.
[00:29:23] Timothy Sullivan: Yes, it’s true. Yeah, so
[00:29:26] John Puma: how… Wait, when?
[00:29:29] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah. So, uh, this is, um, back in 2011,
[00:29:34] John Puma: Uh-huh
[00:29:34] Timothy Sullivan: was a big earthquake in Japan,
[00:29:37] John Puma: Yeah, I know.
[00:29:37] Timothy Sullivan: earthquake, and, um, I heard about a volunteer group from England that was going to Japan to visit and support a bunch of breweries,
[00:29:50] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:29:50] Timothy Sullivan: affected areas. I contacted them and asked them if I could go with them. And also, uh, [00:30:00] Brian from Sipped, uh,
[00:30:02] John Puma: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
[00:30:03] Timothy Sullivan: there. So it was, uh, two American old guys, me and Brian, and then a group of, uh, college, uh, people from England, and probably a group of, like, 20 people. We all went over, and we visited several places, and one place we stayed for three or four days and worked was Niizawa Shuzo. And it was interesting because it was a very transitional period for them. A few things happened. The, uh, they’re in a town in Miyagi called Osaki City, and they had three brewery buildings there, and they were all really, really damaged. And
[00:30:40] John Puma: Hmm.
[00:30:41] Timothy Sullivan: uh, an interesting story. There were aftershocks at the time that we were there,
[00:30:46] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:46] Timothy Sullivan: there was an alarm system that the, uh, brewery had put up, and if there was any movement in the walls, this alarm would go off, and we all had to run outside, and it
[00:30:57] John Puma: Oh my
[00:30:57] Timothy Sullivan: three or four times while we were there. [00:31:00] Uh, we also, at the end of our stay, we got to visit the, uh, new town, Kawasaki Town, uh, which is about 70 kilometers away from Osaki, where they started the brewery. Uh, so we got to see the new brewery, which they had taken over from a brewery that closed,
[00:31:19] John Puma: Oh
[00:31:20] Timothy Sullivan: they took over a facility, and they renovated it and started brewing there, and it was, an amazing experience to be there for this transitional period. Unfortunately, the father of the current president had also passed away just around this time as well.
[00:31:38] John Puma: Hmm
[00:31:39] Timothy Sullivan: uh, the fifth-generation president, Niizawa, uh, was also taking on the role of president, uh, during this very, uh, time of change and challenge for this brewery. So, uh, I was very lucky for a few days to have a front row seat and be a witness to this tremendous [00:32:00] change that was happening.
[00:32:00] Timothy Sullivan: Now, they went on in… That was 2011, and then in 2018, Niizawa-san, uh, retired as a toji and
[00:32:11] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:12] Timothy Sullivan: just the brewery president, the kuramoto,
[00:32:14] John Puma: Right. And this would be when, Watanabe-san came in.
[00:32:19] Timothy Sullivan: right.
[00:32:19] John Puma: Aha.
[00:32:20] Timothy Sullivan: they hired, they hired a female toji, master brewer, and at the time in 2018, she was 22 years
[00:32:28] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:29] Timothy Sullivan: So she was by far the youngest female toji working in Japan at that time. And also, in 2018, they released Absolute Zero, which is a world-famous sake. Do you
[00:32:44] John Puma: Yes.
[00:32:45] Timothy Sullivan: Absolute Zero?
[00:32:46] John Puma: Yeah, Absolute Zero is a very, very famous sake, as you point out. It’s also very expensive. Absolute Zero is not the cost. Absolute Zero is what’s left with your wallet after you’ve purchased it. , as a quick [00:33:00] little aside, two months ago, I went over to Japan for Craft Sake Week, and Niizawa was there one of the nights that I was in attendance, and Absolute Zero was one of their sakes that they were pouring.
[00:33:18] John Puma: And whenever somebody ordered a cup of the Absolute Zero, they had a bell that they would start ringing and make a b- very big deal out of it because it was a, you know, very premium and very expensive, uh, product. And the reason it is very premium and very expensive is because , the rice polishing level is
[00:33:43] Timothy Sullivan: it’s It’s below 1%, so you’re rounding down, it might be zero. It’s dust. It’s…
[00:33:50] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah, it’s actually, I read it’s, uh, 0.85% remaining. So the rice grains are polished to below 1% [00:34:00] remaining. Uh, rounding down, they, they call it absolute zero. But I, I went to a restaurant in Manhattan for a
[00:34:08] John Puma: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:09] Timothy Sullivan: uh, very nice celebratory sushi dinner. They had absolute zero on the menu. And in Manhattan, in the year of our Lord, 2026, that bottle, 500 milliliters, cost 10,000 US dollars
[00:34:27] John Puma: And so you, you ordered it. How was it?
[00:34:33] Timothy Sullivan: I did not order it, John Puma
[00:34:36] John Puma: how, well,
[00:34:38] Timothy Sullivan: But I,
[00:34:39] John Puma: I have had it.
[00:34:40] Timothy Sullivan: caught my attention. I, I’ve, I’ve tasted it at Joy of Sake too.
[00:34:44] John Puma: I, I,
[00:34:44] Timothy Sullivan: couple years.
[00:34:45] John Puma: I, I have tasted it at, uh, I tasted it at, at Craft Sake Week ’cause somebody that I knew ordered it and gave me a sip.
[00:34:54] Timothy Sullivan: You lucky duck
[00:34:56] John Puma: It was a good time, that [00:35:00] event.
[00:35:00] Timothy Sullivan: yeah, for sure. So, uh, in any case, Niizawa has gone on to win all kinds of awards since 2018, so their switch to a young, vibrant female toji and the new direction that the fifth generation president has taken them in has been great. Uh, but they’re staying true to their roots, right, with Atago No Matsu.
[00:35:24] Timothy Sullivan: Like,
[00:35:24] John Puma: Yes. The Roots.
[00:35:26] Timothy Sullivan: yeah, they’re not abandoning their old school roots of honjozo. So I have a lot of respect for that
[00:35:34] John Puma: Me too. And I think that their sake is absolutely fantastic. Like very good stuff. And, uh, I do think that everything they make goes really well with food, but I also really feel that, uh, it does double duty as being something that’s like always really sippable and just enjoyable. They, they do this great job of, of covering both with all of their products, and that [00:36:00] really surprises me ’cause that’s not, it’s not easy to do
[00:36:03] Timothy Sullivan: Yeah. All right. Well, John, this was great. I, I had so much fun going back to basics with you and talking to, uh, our listeners and viewers about honjozo, which we now have a renewed appreciation for, right?
[00:36:19] John Puma: Yeah, yeah. And I, I really enjoyed getting to right the wrongs of the sake world and talk about how, uh, how, uh, honjozo is wonderful and people need to appreciate it a little bit more
[00:36:32] Timothy Sullivan: absolutely. Well, John, it was so great to taste with you. Uh, fantastic to be back here in living color, as I like to say
[00:36:40] John Puma: Oh, goodness
[00:36:41] Timothy Sullivan: And I wanna take a moment to thank all of our listeners and viewers for tuning in. A special hello and thank you to our Patreon supporters. Now, if you would like to support Sake Revolution as we venture into this new world of video podcasting, uh, please feel free to join [00:37:00] our community on Patreon. Uh, if you’d like to learn more, visit patreon.com/sakerevolution
[00:37:07] John Puma: And if you have, uh, questions, comments, uh, anything that you want to tell us about our transition to video, your appreciation for honjozo, or anything in between, drop us a line over at, uh, [email protected]. That’s an email address, by the way. So we’re, we’re doing, we’re doing essays, we got email addresses, we’re doing, we’re, we’re doing it old school.
[00:37:34] John Puma: We’ve got a tokurimatsu, we’re kicking it old school. Anyway, so yeah, please do send us over, um, your thoughts, and we love to read them, and, uh, we always, always get back to people who write into us. We really appreciate it when you do. So Tim, on that note, do you have, uh, still, do you still have sake in your glass?
[00:37:52] John Puma: Oh, well, hold on a
[00:37:53] Timothy Sullivan: I do
[00:37:54] John Puma: second, ’cause I don’t. All right, there we [00:38:00] go. So everybody at home, please raise your glass. Remember to keep drinking sake, and kanpai.
[00:38:05] Timothy Sullivan: Kanpai!
[00:38:09]