John Puma: 0:25
this is America’s First Sake Podcast. I am one of your intrepid hosts. My name is John Puma. You may know me from the Sake Notes or the Internet Sake Discord or Reddit’s r slash sake community. I like to build sake communities, apparently.

Timothy Sullivan: 0:38
And I’m your other host. My name is Timothy Sullivan. I’m the director of education at the Sake Studies Center. And I’m the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, we will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake, and do our best to make it fun and easy to understand. John, so good to see you.

John Puma: 0:56
Yeah, Tim, I’m sitting across the table from you which is a very rare rare treat, normally we are on zoom John, so good

Timothy Sullivan: 1:00
Well today is a very special day in the sake lover’s calendar, isn’t it? Yes, today is sake day, and we are celebrating by doing one of our very rare live sake podcast recordings. We are at the Brooklyn Kura Taproom. We have some VIP guests with us. And the best thing that we have going on today is that we have a live studio audience. So,

Shinobu Kato: 1:30
will

Timothy Sullivan: 1:34
alright.

John Puma: 1:35
my. Yeah, this will be our second time doing a live studio audience. The first time, of course, was last year at the, uh, North American craft Sake Festival down in Virginia. And yeah, it’s nice to, nice to have you guys and we’re indoors this time. It’s a little bit, slightly less hot than it was in Virginia in the middle of the summer. Uh, and it’s, it’s a lot of fun to be here.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:59
Yes, and we decided to focus, since we’re in New York City, we decided to focus our episode today on some of the toji’s of New York City. And we’ve invited the two master brewers that we have here in New York City to join us as guests. So I would like to welcome Brandon Doughan of Brooklyn Kura. Welcome, Brandon.

Brandon Doughan: 2:18
Thanks so much for having me again. uh, this is nice of

Timothy Sullivan: 2:25
And we also have Shinobu Kato from Kato Sake Works, also in New York

John Puma: 2:34
So, uh, this is nice. So the thing is that neither of you guys are strangers to this show. You guys have all been here. At least once. Shinobu’s only been here the one time. He was here in, uh, episode 51. Which I think was a really fun time to have him. I think he was celebrating his first anniversary of, of Kato Sake Works. And, uh, Brandon You’re a repeat offender.

Brandon Doughan: 2:56
I’ve been here more than Byron a Proper Sake. Is what my answer to that? I

John Puma: 3:00
I think this officially puts you ahead of him.

Brandon Doughan: 3:02
right.

John Puma: 3:04
So, we’ll have to have Byron on, you guys can battle at some point. I’m going to be excited to see that.

Timothy Sullivan: 3:09
Awesome. Well, we would like both of you to introduce yourselves to our listeners who may not have heard those previous episodes. Can you give us a quick introduction, a little bit about your background and how you got into sake, how you became a sake brewer. So, Shinobu, why don’t we start with you?

Shinobu Kato: 3:25
start? Okay, Okay, uh, my name is Shinobu Kato, and, uh, I make sake at the Kato Sake Works. Please don’t take any questions from that table, because that’s the entire Kato Sake crew, and I know that they are putting hard questions on me. But, anyway, uh, How I started? I, I, I’ve been kind of a serious drinker when I was in, in Japan, but this country doesn’t give me like enough sake that I needed, so I just started home brewing at home when I was in Tennessee. That was like 10 years ago. And then, you know, I moved to Brooklyn. Because I thought nobody’s making sake here.

John Puma: 4:06
here.

Brandon Doughan: 4:07
here.

Shinobu Kato: 4:10
So that, that, that’s my story.

Brandon Doughan: 4:12
Alright

John Puma: 4:12
mostly

Brandon Doughan: 4:14
I’m Brandon Doughan, I’m the master brewer of Brooklyn Kura. Um, I got into sake, uh, mostly out of, uh, interest in fermentation. Uh, sake is one of the weirder fermented beverages in the world. Um, so, I’m interested in all things weird fermented, um, and then I met my business partner, uh, Brian, in Japan, and we happened to wander into a very traditional sake brewery and got the bug, um, and then quit our old jobs and started making sake here in Brooklyn.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:50
How long have each of you been brewing? How Long have you been brewing? Even starting at home brewing, how many years have you been practicing your craft?

Shinobu Kato: 5:00
I think like 10 years, I guess. Yeah, but my first batch was like, you know, One bucket, one fridge, you know, I don’t know what I was doing, so just follow the instruction on the internet. And then I made something like sake. So,

Brandon Doughan: 5:16
Um, fermentation in general, since before I was 21. Um, and it’s been beer and wine and lacto fermentation. Um, even shoyu before sake. but sake really, seriously, the last ten years or so. And and it’s true, brewing sake at home is, is difficult, and it’s very difficult on that small scale to get a good result.

John Puma: 5:46
Well, um, but one thing that we find really interesting is that for people who have been to Japan and have gone to sake breweries in Japan, sake breweries are usually kind of out there. They’re kind of over in the countryside, they’re kind of, you gotta take the train to the bus, and then after the bus you’re gonna walk for a bit, and then you’re going to this parking lot, and then there’s a rice field on the right, and then the brewery’s on the left. But you guys are doing this in one of the most major metropolitan areas in the world. How’s that different? And what’s that do for you guys? What’s that mean for you guys?

Brandon Doughan: 6:18
Well, I think there’s pros and cons. Um, I think the pro is that we’re in New York City, we’re in the largest Sake market, um, in the United States. So we have people such as our audience, um, that already kind of know about sake and appreciate sake. So we’ve already got that, you know, that fan consumer base there. Um, another thing, I moved here from the West Coast. Another thing that, um, is great about New York City is its water. you know, I’m sure you’ve done many episodes on terroir for sake, but, but, but water does play an effect, um, and it doesn’t seem like the largest metropolitan area in the United States would have good water, but it is fantastic for sake

John Puma: 7:00
and Shinobu?

Shinobu Kato: 7:01
Yeah, I couldn’t agree more on the water. Oh, I didn’t do my research before I moved to, so it was just lucky, but yeah, New York City water is really good. I don’t know, in my case, oh, I grew up in Tokyo, so I never lived in the countryside, so I never thought about that. And then, you know, I spent ten years in Tennessee, so I had enough,

Timothy Sullivan: 7:21
had enough. It’s

Shinobu Kato: 7:22
you know, slow life, so I needed to come back to the city. And then I needed to do something for myself, so it was like, no option.

Timothy Sullivan: 7:32
Yeah. I know that when, when I visit brewers that are out in the country, they talk about the purity of their water, the purity of the air, you know, it’s so clean there. Uh, do you guys see any challenges being in the city? Uh, any, uh, logistical challenges or any, any practical challenges being in such a metropolitan area?

Brandon Doughan: 7:53
I guess, um, I mean, it’s, the situation of sake brewing in the United States in general is that we, we are removed from our rice source. Like, our, our rice is grown in either California or Arkansas. It has to get on a truck and get to us. Um, uh, um, you know, pretty much everything but the water has to get on a truck and get to us. And so there’s that logistical challenge. Um, yeah, what do you think?

Shinobu Kato: 8:17
Yeah, that’s true. That’s kind of weird thing because you get the rice on the palate and then that’s how you start making things in the building, and then once it’s done, it goes out from the, you know, the loading dock. So you don’t have a good connection to the, to the land or to the, you know, ecosystem that everything comes

Brandon Doughan: 8:41
of Yeah, you and I are not growing rice in the off season.

Timothy Sullivan: 8:44
So one thing you mentioned, Brandon, a moment ago was about the consumer base that we have here. And I think that’s so important. I’d love to talk to you guys a little bit about that. I know that. Shinobu at Kato Sake Works, you’re really growing a community of sake lovers in your neighborhood, and during the pandemic, especially, you had direct outreach. Can you talk a little bit about growing that community and growing sake with your locals that you have right there?

Shinobu Kato: 9:12
growing Yes, so when I started Kato Sake in NY, I had a kinda business plan or whatever the idea that, hey, maybe I should sell our sake Manhattan, you know, like a nice omakase place or something like that. And then pandemic happened, and then all the, the trains or subways were so disgusting, so you didn’t want to even touch anything in the subway. Oh, so everybody stayed at home, just, you know, walk around in your apartment. And then that’s how we started our business. And it was a great discovery to know that, oh, there are more interests. In the, just, the people on the street, they are very curious, and if there’s an opportunity right next to their apartment, they are open to try something new, right? So that was how we started, and then, you know, I’m, probably we are still doing that at our own space, that most of the customers are somewhere in, like, in the neighborhood, and uh, we just, you know, hang out with people, and then, you know, dogs, and then kids, and then it’s kind of fun, yeah.

John Puma: 10:17
And in contrast to what Shinobu did during the pandemic, Brooklyn Kura, you guys did the opposite and you reached out and started doing delivery services. You guys started, started Kura Kin at that point and started doing like, Oh, let’s try an interesting batch and get it out to people and see what they think. What was that process like for you?

Brandon Doughan: 10:35
Well, we went from, uh, Brian basically, uh, driving his car around Manhattan and getting a lot of tickets and delivering sake, uh, to those, to that period in the pandemic, um, where we started Kurakin, it’s our sake subscription, sake club. and as far as being the brewer, it, it gave me a chance to, to try some small batches. We have a few small tanks. It gave me a chance to experiment more because we had our kind of our big products that we had were starting to refine and make consistent. but you know, I’m a new brewer. I don’t have a hundred years of history, uh, behind me. so it’s always good to, to try new things and, and try new rice, try new yeast, try two new techniques. And the Kurakin has really kind of given me that opportunity to experiment. and mostly succeed in those experiments and then, and then have, you know, get feedback from our, from our members.

John Puma: 11:33
so Tim, uh, I think it is time for us to taste a sake, is that

Timothy Sullivan: 11:39
Yes, we, uh, have the great pleasure to taste two sakes, one from Brandon, one from Shinobu, and uh, I’ve remember many visits to Japan, tasting sake with the master brewer who made it is something really special. And we’re gonna have that opportunity today and share it with our studio audience. Is everyone excited to taste with the tojis?? Yes. Alright. so I’m going to pour the first sake from Kato Sake Works. This is a Junmai, and we have to do our what could you call it? This is our signature it’s

John Puma: 12:21
it’s our signature ASMR

Timothy Sullivan: 12:22
Yes. So we’re going to see if we can capture this on audio.

John Puma: 12:30
Pretty good, pretty good. I think, yeah, I think it did it.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:35
So I’m going to pass that

Shinobu Kato: 12:36
Do I have to do the same thing If

John Puma: 12:39
can, that would be awesome, but, you know.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:43
Shinobu san, we’re going to start with you. And you have brought us your Junmai sake from Kato Sake Works. And I noticed you have a special limited label on the bottle, so I’d love to hear about that. But can you introduce us to this first sake? Okay.

Shinobu Kato: 13:02
Sure. So this is our Junmai. And although you’ve been saying that I made this Junmai, actually it’s more Maxine sitting over there making this sake, so, yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:13
Yay,

13:13
Maxine! Maxine yeah, but

Shinobu Kato: 13:15
anyway, uh, so this is our flagship Junmai, and we use 60 percent Calrose. Uh, Calrose is just like ordinary eating rice that everybody eat at the, you know, whatever the restaurant that you go. So, uh, and then, uh, although we call it Junmai, it’s Technically Junmai, Ginjo, but we just want to make things simple. Oh, very classic, a little bit bolder, had more sugar and acidity, I think. Oh, so it’s a little bit louder, sake, that when I explain to the customers, this is more like American style because you are loud and then noisy. Yeah. I understand,

John Puma: 13:52
yeah, I noticed, I noticed on your label you actually, um, suggest, uh, in addition to taste like and pairs like, you have a pairing for music, or what it sounds like, keyboard riffs.

Shinobu Kato: 14:05
yeah, so that’s what we do because, uh, more than half of our team members are musicians. Not me, I don’t play any music instruments, but everybody else does that. Uh, especially James and, uh, Maxine. Uh, but anyway, it’s kind of fun when we are doing the tasting notes. You know, tasting note, sometimes people take it so seriously, and we want people to take tasting note more personable, right? Depending on what kind of diet you grew up with, your Pairing might be completely different. In the same way, music is very personal, so we just want to suggest to people that, hey, take the tasting note more like how you listen to music.

John Puma: 14:44
awesome. You

Timothy Sullivan: 14:45
That’s awesome. I, you know, I noticed there’s some brewers and some breweries that don’t want to focus as much on the stats that the sake geeks like us really love. Like, what’s the amino acid? What’s the rice milling percentage? What’s the acidity? How do you feel about that in general?

Shinobu Kato: 15:02
That’s what we probably do. You know, Maxine has all the data, but at the end of the day we are like, yeah, it tastes right, you know?

Timothy Sullivan: 15:12
you. Awesome. So, that was a wonderful introduction. So, that was a wonderful introduction So, why don’t we take this, uh, in the glass, and let’s give it a smell.

John Puma: 15:24
Hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 15:25
So there’s some lovely rice aromas. That must be that calrose coming through. Now, you work a lot with calrose. Is that the only rice you use?

Shinobu Kato: 15:34
So far, yes, except one time we didn’t get cow roast on time and we have to go to Chinatown to get the Oh no, but we still get the Calrose, just a different polish. That’s,

John Puma: 15:45
get is because we polish. Is

Shinobu Kato: 15:50
Chinese

John Puma: 15:51
Chinatown

Timothy Sullivan: 15:51
Is this the Chinatown edition?

John Puma: 15:54
about

Shinobu Kato: 15:54
This is the one that we get pallet on the right day edition.

John Puma: 15:58
for

Timothy Sullivan: 15:58
wonderful. Now, now talk to us about this label. You did a special labeling for Sake Day. Is that right?

Shinobu Kato: 16:04
right? Yes. So, you know, sake day is special, and then people want to make a, uh, special thing about sake day and sake week, but, you know, So we have a story about how sake day started from like a, you know, brewing season in Japan and how traditionally it was made. Oh, but at the same time, probably same is true for Brandon, but we make sake every day, every season. So, you know, the original meaning of the sake day, the starting of the season, doesn’t mean anything. to us, right? So our message is, yeah, today’s a great special day and we wanna celebrate today as a sake day, but can we make sake day as 365 every day so that we can celebrate this every day?

Timothy Sullivan: 16:52
I love that. Yeah. So, while we have it in the glass, let’s taste the Junmai from Kato Sake

John Puma: 16:58
let’s.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:58
together. So, It’s lovely. Yeah. So, you work magic with calrose, I have to say.

Shinobu Kato: 17:06
Maxine did. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:08
I see.

John Puma: 17:11
Maxine does a lot of magic with Calrose and, and yeah, it’s, it’s been interesting to see, like you’ve been using Cal Roses, uh, for as long as, uh, Kato Saki works has been going, but so many of your SAS tastes different from one another. And so it’s so interesting that you’re, a lot of, uh, north American breweries get excited about new types of rices, new types of Polish. I said, you’re like, I got this rice, I’m gonna do all these different things with it. What was your, your thought was like, I know I can get this, or was it more along the lines of like, I see something more with this?

Shinobu Kato: 17:40
think initially it was more like logistical and economical reason, right? You want to make the same sake consistently, but we don’t have a luxury to have a big batch, so we have to make a small batch like regularly. How can we get the rice, the same type of rice? Consistently supplied and then we don’t have a big warehouse so we don’t have a space to get like five pallets of rice, right? So we need to have like half pallets every week kind of situation.

John Puma: 18:12
option

Shinobu Kato: 18:13
Only option was calrose, because Yamada Nishiki and another Sake were not that consistent, right? And then we did not have a luxury to, hey, let’s do this for this batch and then let’s do something else for other batch, then we don’t have a, uh, like restaurants that trust us, like, hey, your sake, like number 14, always taste the same, right? So kind of, from that kind of, uh, reason that we started using calrose as a base ingredient. And then I fell in love with the story, or history, of Calrose, like, okay, you know, Japanese immigration, and then how it was adapted in the U. S. culture. And without Calrose as an eating rice, there was no California roll. Without California roll, there’s no omakase in Manhattan right now. And without having an omakase in Manhattan, maybe there’s not two sake breweries in Brooklyn right now. So, I like that story, and I like that idea, and we still don’t have a space to store any other type of rice at the brewery yet. Yeah, so that’s another reason.

John Puma: 19:12
That’ll be the third iteration of the brewery

Timothy Sullivan: 19:13
Yes.

Brandon Doughan: 19:14
I mean, I, I love Calrose, um, we use a lot of it as well, and, and I think of it as the American sake mai. like, there, there’s, there are, how many, what’s the count now for small sake American brewers now? Is it 20, 20, 27, so there’s 27 small American sake brewers, and a lot of them are very small, and, and, like, working on minimal budgets, and, and, calrose is, is an affordable rice. Um, uh, Yamada nishiki is an expensive rice. Um, so, so, you know, Americans have leaned into calrose, and I think they’re doing wonderful things with it, and maybe people don’t think it’s going to be a good sake rice because it’s also a food rice, but it is, and we just, we just had to learn how to use it.

Timothy Sullivan: 20:02
Absolutely. I do want to ask you one more question about your sake, Shinobu. I want you to speak a little bit about the sweetness to dryness profile, because what it comes through for me is this is not a bone dry sake, and there’s a hint of noticeable sweetness there. So what’s, what’s your feeling on that balance between sweet and dry?

Shinobu Kato: 20:20
You know, there’s a big discussion going on in the internet about this. Dryness of sake in like a Japanese like a sake geek board kind of thing. So but anyway, that’s completely different topic, but so our sake probably has more sugar compared to, uh, like a typical mainstream, uh, Junmai sake, uh, but also has more acidity, yeah. So depending on what kind of drinking background you have, you find this sake dry or you find sake, you find this sake sweet. And, uh, still we are learning that question. We have a customer like, hey, give me the driest sake you have, and I, I I gave up, so I usually give like three different styles and you tell me. And each time, people have very different answers. Yeah, and some people think that this sake is too sweet, some people think that this sake is dry,

Timothy Sullivan: 21:17
Yeah.

Shinobu Kato: 21:18
and I’m completely confused.

John Puma: 21:21
I’m hungry for

Timothy Sullivan: 21:25
Yes. Good answer.

John Puma: 21:26
very, it’s a confusion,

Timothy Sullivan: 21:29
Yes. Uh, I heard, Uh, there’s a very famous quote, the customer is always right in matters of taste

John Puma: 21:34
funny word.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:36
Excellent. Well, uh, Kato San, this is a fantastic Junmai. Very, very drinkable. Congratulations to you and Maxine. It’s, it’s very, very delicious. Very good. Yes. So, John, should we move on to the Brooklyn Kura?

John Puma: 21:54
think we should.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:55
right. So from Brooklyn Kura, we are going to be tasting a Junmai Ginjo, the Grand Prairie. So let’s give this a pour and do our audio.

John Puma: 22:06
are you going to do? So while we’re getting that poured out there, Brandon.

Brandon Doughan: 22:18
Yes.

John Puma: 22:19
Grand Prairie. What’s with the name?

Brandon Doughan: 22:22
Um, this name was coined, uh, by a former bartender of ours, Sam. Um, and it refers to the area in, Arkansas where rice is grown. So it’s a, it’s a flat area in eastern Arkansas where the Mississippi has been meandering for millions of years and made And, like, ideal rice paddy growing area.

John Puma: 22:44
All right. tell us a little bit about this. Junmai Ginjo Yamadanishiki. What

Brandon Doughan: 22:47
so, so, this is, Grand Prairie is, um, made with Yamada Nishiki, from Arkansas, milled to 60%, and, and, it changes a little, a little bit each time. I’m really trying to, like, Capture what American yamanashiki tastes like. Again, I know you’ve done terroir or, or, or like, like what is contributing to the taste of sake, and it’s complicated. And it’s difficult for me to drink a sake and guess what the rice is.

John Puma: 23:21
umhum

Brandon Doughan: 23:22
But, but, you know, we, rices available to us, and, and with this particular ginjo, um, I’m trying to like, Understand what Yamadanishiki tastes like. So I use a yeast that’s, that’s kind of simple. Um, I’m, I’m trying to like, let, let the rice be its own thing. Um, and, and just trying to balance the rice, uh, the, the, the glucose and the acidity to kind of show that off.

John Puma: 23:50
Well, Tim, the aroma,

Timothy Sullivan: 23:51
Yeah, let’s get the aroma.

John Puma: 23:53
so I think this also has a lot of that, a little bit of that Rice-iness

Timothy Sullivan: 23:56
Hmm.

John Puma: 23:57
but it’s a different rice. You can tell that right away.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:01
Absolutely. And I always, I always find when I teach sake classes that I learn so much by side by side comparisons. So I’m actually going to go back to Kato and smell this one, smell them side by side. Calrose versus Yamadanishiki I think the aroma for the, uh, Grand Prairie with Yamada Nishiki is a little more lifted and a little more perfumed than the Calrose.

John Puma: 24:23
And the calrose comes in, it’s a little, it’s the aroma, it makes me think of something to be a little more tangy, a little more sweet

Timothy Sullivan: 24:29
Hmm.

John Puma: 24:29
Whereas this one feels a little more, uh, a little more like that, that sweet rice,

Timothy Sullivan: 24:33
Yeah, so.

John Puma: 24:34
sweet rice.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:35
Let’s give the Grand Prairie a taste. Yeah, so I think with both of these sakes the word that keeps popping to my mind is balance, like this great balance between sweetness and dryness and acidity and umami. There’s, there’s wonderful balance and I think that that’s what makes a great sake. Those people who search for like the ultimate super dry, or like that super, super sweet. I think that’s a stool with, you know, the legs are unbalanced. But if you have, uh, the acidity, the sugar, and the umami all in balance, it creates a wonderful experience for sake. And both of these sakes, for me, represent, Great balance. What do you think, John?

John Puma: 25:19
I agree, so neither of these are wild or crazy style.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:25
know,

John Puma: 25:26
they are not to dry or too sweet they are right where you want them They are both really approachable.. I think that’s a good way to put it. I find it really interesting that, um, so Brandon’s using the, you know, the American version of the king of Japanese Sakamai. And Shinobu’s using the American Sakamai. And I think it’s like, it’s, it’s a little interesting about that. I think it’s a little fun that you guys, it’s a fun little thing we get to play with here today.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:56
So, as we’re winding up our sake portion, if anyone has questions that they’ve written out, please raise your hand, and the staff will come around and collect those and bring those up to us. Uh, we encourage everyone to submit questions.

John Puma: 26:09
Um, yeah, So while they’re taking care of that, there’s a couple things we wanted to chat with you guys about. And that is, you guys are, you know, we’re in New York, you guys are in the biggest metropolitan area in the US, we’re going to call it that. Um, LA may argue, but they’re wrong. Now, um, but you guys are looking to get outside and share your sake with the rest of the world, Brandon, you were just in Japan. You were pouring sake at a Japanese event called Sake Jump. And Shinobu, you just got done releasing your sake. In Puerto Rico, which was not on my bingo card, but it’s super cool. I’m really

Shinobu Kato: 26:46
excited

John Puma: 26:47
about that. So I want to ask each of you kind of like what went on with that and how that’s been for you guys. So we’ll start with Brandon and then we’ll go over to Shinobu.

Brandon Doughan: 26:56
Yeah, so, Japan stays hot much longer than I thought it does. So that was the first thing I remember about Sake Jump, it was extremely hot. Um, but it was an incredible opportunity. Sake Jump is an event. tries to draw in, like, young, innovative brewers. there were a lot of, of, of this, uh, doberoku license, this new doberoku license in Japan. these young guys there, I’m flattered that they thought I was young to invite us.

John Puma: 27:25
Um,

Brandon Doughan: 27:25
But we were the first non Japanese sake brewery to pour at this event, and it was just overwhelmingly positive. I think, I think, you know, as maybe we all know, uh, sake in Japan is on the decline. I mean, the cool kids are drinking IPA and Japanese whiskey, um, but, but this really is kind of, it seemed cool to me, um, and, and, and then like people were really excited about it and they’re really enthused, as I, as I poured sake for them, it was just, people were amazed that somebody outside of Japan was make, even making sake, and they really loved the sake. So, it was a really like. Positive, uh, uh, supportive Event That’s That’s

John Puma: 28:07
awesome. So Shinobu, tell me about Puerto Rico.

Shinobu Kato: 28:11
It was good. that location That was my first vacation for like five years since we opened the brewery. Yeah, so it was good. Yeah, and I made that as a half business trip. But, you know, the ultimate purpose was to go to the beach.

Brandon Doughan: 28:31
Laughter.

John Puma: 28:33
you succeed?

Shinobu Kato: 28:33
Yeah, yeah, but, uh, you know, we, our, our brewery is still small, you know, oh, and then, uh, the capacity wise, we don’t have a capacity to distribute anything outside of New York City, uh, or maybe New York State at the most, right, so we don’t have any plan to go anywhere outside of New York State, but I just wanted to have a vacation, and, uh, you know, we have a lot of, But, you know, Bushwick is very Puertorican, right? Yeah, so, oh, my neighbor’s Puertorican, you know, uh, there’s like a food stand, Puertorican, like a, what’s it called, pincho stand, and then restaurants, everything. So we wanted to kind of appreciate and then kind of, uh, contribute, contribute back to the community who accepted us as, like, a new business. And then, you know, there are a couple of regulars that, hey, I. I know somebody who wants to have a sake in Puerto Rico, so can you ship it? And we figured it out and then I went there and then had a nice vacation.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:38
Shinobu, that’s what we call work life balance. Yes. Very, very well done.

John Puma: 29:46
Tokyo? No.

Brandon Doughan: 29:47
little bit.

John Puma: 29:47
Okay, good.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:49
Work life balance.

John Puma: 29:50
That’s also a balance.

Timothy Sullivan: 29:51
Well, We think it’s wonderful that both of you are reaching outside of New York, and it is a wonderful indication of the growth of the sake industry, It just gets me thinking, like, when we have our reunion live episode in five years, in ten years, where are you going to be selling? Yeah, it’s going to be amazing. So, John, we got some questions from the audience

John Puma: 30:11
We did,

Timothy Sullivan: 30:12
did you, uh, do you want to go first

John Puma: 30:14
Sure, sure. So, so first I have to like, there’s this one I need to just kind of get out of the way. And, um, that is, somebody asked if there will be a collaboration sake between Kato Sake works

Timothy Sullivan: 30:23
and

John Puma: 30:23
Brooklyn Kura, and, uh, it happened already.

Brandon Doughan: 30:26
Oh, it’s

30:26
gonna happen again It’s gonna

Shinobu Kato: 30:28
happen

Brandon Doughan: 30:28
It’s gonna continue to happen.

Shinobu Kato: 30:29
It’s recorded, so happening

Brandon Doughan: 30:31
No, we had a great time. Uh, we made a sake called, uh, pizza bagel and and that refers to our common ingredient, which is our, uh, our New York City water. Um, so, so we were just talking, I had a tour with Kato Sake Works, um, earlier today, and we were talking about doing this collaboration again, and I know that a lot of other American sake breweries listen to this podcast, and I think we should all be doing that. Like I think we should, like I will do a collaboration with every other sake brewery in the United States, and we should all be like collaborating and doing something together.

John Puma: 31:08
sounds like a lot of fun. I, I’m down for that. I want to, I want to taste those sakes.

Timothy Sullivan: 31:13
Can you remind us, that Pizza, Bagel, sake, that collaboration you did before? How did that work? What part did each of you do?

Shinobu Kato: 31:21
So at that time we started talking about the collaboration and Brandon was like, Hey, we gonna make. Moto, so can you make moromi on our space? And we were like, no, because your moto size is our moromi size, so there’s no space in the tank. So we did a reverse, and then we made a moto, and then put into the, like a 20 liter Cambro, and Johnny, I, and then Evan took an Uber from Bushwick, and then at the very end at the industry city, uh, you know. It was not fully, properly, uh, secured. And then Johnny got all the moto splash. Yes, yes. But we put together the, the bucket into, uh, the tank. Uh, and then we made that from there. So from there you did take, took care of everything. So we did a little bit easier part. I mean, you took care of everything.

John Puma: 32:20
So it was technically a three part collaboration. It was Kato Sake Works, Brooklyn Kura,

Brandon Doughan: 32:26
and uber, yeah, I know. We owe 10%. I mean, I think, I think we do it again. We both have a little more setup space now. I think we can share the responsibilities a

Shinobu Kato: 32:40
That’s true. Equally

John Puma: 32:41
Mm hmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:42
Okay, I got a great question here. This question has two hearts drawn on it, too. It says, for Brandon and Shinobu, what are your favorite styles of sake to drink versus to brew? Have brewing challenges ever affected your drinking preferences? So let’s do the, that’s a great question, let’s do the first part first. What are your favorite styles of sake to drink versus to brew? Brandon?

Brandon Doughan: 33:08
I enjoy drinking all styles of sake

John Puma: 33:12
That’s very diplomatic

Brandon Doughan: 33:13
I, It’s true though. I i, mean, my friends are both of you and, and like other sake, Somms and, and, and, and, and the whole New York sake community. So I go out with people and, and it’s like, oh, I’ve got this weird bottle, like. Jamie from Skurnik. Well, I’ve been keeping this bottle under my desk for three years, and he’ll pour me something, and it’s, the story’s fantastic. It’s good. I only want one glass of it. But I enjoy, like, all styles of drinking sake, and then my favorite style to produce, um, I really do like Yamahai and Kimoto, making Yamahai and Kimoto, just because it’s like making a sake before you make the sake. It’s good. It’s got its own, Entire fermentation process that happens just to make the Shubo, uh, before you go into it and, and like, and to see how, you know, that translates, it affects the fermentation of the main fermentation in the final taste. So

John Puma: 34:08
Maybe to do a collab with Proper. You and Byron in the same room, doing a little Kimoto. I

Brandon Doughan: 34:14
that’ll be

Shinobu Kato: 34:14
that’d be fun.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:16
Shinobu, how about for you, styles you like to drink versus what you like to brew?

Shinobu Kato: 34:21
So drink, to drink, probably Junmai,

Timothy Sullivan: 34:26
Junmai, Junmai,

Shinobu Kato: 34:29
That’s what I probably end up when I’m, like, in Japan going to, like, small izakaya by myself and then, you know, have some Otsumami and then drink something. I’d probably end up the night with Junmai. Maybe room temperature warm or something like that, but yeah, yeah, I like Junmai. Uh, to make, I agree that, you know, Kimoto, Yamahai, all those kind of weird stuff, that’s more fun. You know, it’s, it’s fun. Very, you know, unpredictable, that requires a lot of care, right? Oh, and of course Maxine can tell because she has to do that. The hand, hand mixing and the stuff, you know, I do that sometimes too. But, yeah, but that’s a fun thing to brew.

John Puma: 35:15
Nice. So, uh, we got another question here and this is, um, I, I really like this. So let me try to get this right. So what is your favorite happy accident story about making sake? Now, not not disaster stories, but like happy accident stories.

Timothy Sullivan: 35:29
accidents. Who wants

John Puma: 35:32
Who wants to go first?

Shinobu Kato: 35:36
I have probably ten accidents, I don’t know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m trying to think of a happy one.

Brandon Doughan: 35:46
So

Shinobu Kato: 35:47
Well, so far we are lucky that any accidents that we’ve done Had were not disaster, and what we got was something that we didn’t intend, but tasted interesting. And, uh, we, as a brewer, had a bit of higher standard that, hey, this didn’t taste like what we intended. Dump it, right? But actually, you know, it’s more like it didn’t taste like what we intended, but still within the boundary of good craft sake. Yeah, and the customer kind of liked it.

John Puma: 36:30
Kusuma

Shinobu Kato: 36:35
Yeah, but one time, like, Johnny was like, No, we should dump this. And then I was like, Okay, that’s a lot of things to dump. Maybe let’s try to pour the tap room still in people Liked it.

Brandon Doughan: 36:45
I’m trying to hang on to some of those, because, because if you put them in the back of the walk in or something, like, you could come back to them six months later, and, they’re remarkable. Like it, it’s rare that that have There’s most are still terrible, but, but, um, I, I think for me, the, the, the Whole Kura Kin, the thing we have, the fact that we have these small tanks, it’s, I mean, maybe they’re all accidents, but like, we’re, we’re just making stuff up. We’re not, we’re not going off of any thing, out of a book or something. And we were following a general recipe. So, we’re also, I think, the exciting thing about being in the US, or at least outside of Japan, is, is that everything we do is new. Like, we’re, we’re like, like, this year’s Calrose or this year’s Yamada is like, relatively very very new, and so we’re going to find out about it. And then, and then, you know, whatever yeast we can get, you know, however we are personally growing koji, like, all that’s going to affect it. So, so. It’s, it’s kind of all of an accident and, and, um, and I dunno, they’re all my favorite accidents.

John Puma: 37:52
all your favorite accidents? Okay. This is

Timothy Sullivan: 37:54
question. These are great. You guys did amazing. Thank you for all these questions. So this is another good one. When you first started brewing, were there any Japanese breweries that inspired your style or your methods? Thank you. That’s a very good question. So did you, yeah. did you, get any inspiration from a particular brewery in Japan when you first started brewing, or any breweries you wanted to emulate?

Shinobu Kato: 38:26
I’ll go first, so when I started was when Around the time that there was, like, high acidity sake is kind of becoming a trend in Japan and I was already moved to the U. S. I didn’t have a chance to go back there as often, but I went back there and my friend took me to some, like, cool, like, hidden sake, not sake bar, but like, izakaya in Osaka, and it’s crazy. They had a pool table, and on the pool table, there’s, like, a, like, a train, model trains, like, running But like a small like, you know, whatever the gauge train kind of thing. Yeah, but they had a like a all this like high acidity sake that I’ve never heard of. Yeah, like, you know, what was that? Like aramasa and zaku and those kind of things. And then I was like, oh, I kind of like this, uh, you know, the, the acid cutting through the, the palate. So that was one influence that I got. And then also, oh Dassai.,

John Puma: 39:29
um

Shinobu Kato: 39:29
Not the flavor, you know, flavor is great, you know, don’t, don’t get me wrong, but the production side. So I visited their facility and then I saw how they do things. And then that was like, Oh God, that’s interesting. Very, you know, that works for us like a small breweries. Oh, so there’s a lot of like, you know, uh, light bulbs moment to me.

Brandon Doughan: 39:53
of thing. Yeah, I think, um, for It’s not really about any particular drinking experience, but it is some early visits. Like, if it’s your first experience of making sake, it’s an emotional thing that sticks with you. So I had a couple, Early sake breweries that I visited, Takashima Shuzo is one. Um, and then also, um, like I have maybe less exposure to sake breweries in Japan than Shinobu does. But, uh, We have a cheerleader from Japan that comes over once in a while. His name is Kuji san from Nanbu Bijin. And so, like, we, like, all the American sake brewers know him because he comes and he’s, and he is really trying to, like, make sake brewing outside of Japan a thing, and, and he’s, like, very immediately inspirational. So, so I think Nanbu Bijin is probably an influence for me and several other breweries in the United States.

Timothy Sullivan: 40:57
Kujisan on the podcast, and he is a force to be reckoned with. Yes.

John Puma: 41:02
quite a character.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:03
Yes.

John Puma: 41:06
All right, so we’ve got one that they specify this is for the toji and they underlined it. So Tim, this is not for you or me. What is your favorite and or least favorite step of the sake making process?

Brandon Doughan: 41:18
Uh, favorite and or least favorite?

John Puma: 41:20
And or.

Brandon Doughan: 41:21
Well, I mean, I’m speaking for everybody. Cleaning is the most frequent and least favorite part, but it’s a necessary part. part.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:29
ha ha. ha.

Brandon Doughan: 41:30
Um, actually my favorite part I think is Tim’s least favorite part. And it’s Koji making Am I right? That’s right.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:38
I called it sweating to the oldies. That was, shh, yes. we

Shinobu Kato: 41:42
favorite, uh, Well, I hope the The company’s not listening to this podcast, but, uh, we use a software called ECOS. That’s like a software to, to get the log of everything, because we have to report how many alcohol we produced, and then, you know, so there’s like a background, uh, information management. And then after you do all the physical labors of fun stuff, You have to key in everything, like, okay, how many koji you made, how many, you know, koji spores you used, and then all those things, and then that’s, everybody’s like, okay, oh, I still have to log in everything after the long day of the labor. Yeah.

Brandon Doughan: 42:26
And it’s a program made initially for beer.

Shinobu Kato: 42:29
yeah, yeah.

Brandon Doughan: 42:30
there’s no good software for sake, in the United States at least.

John Puma: 42:34
Sounds like my day job.

Shinobu Kato: 42:35
It’s

Timothy Sullivan: 42:37
that’s your least favorite. What’s your favorite part of sake brewing, Shinobu?

Shinobu Kato: 42:42
I don’t know, lunch? We, we,

Brandon Doughan: 42:44
we

Shinobu Kato: 42:46
Yeah, we, we cook lunch every day together. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, like all the brewers and then some bartenders who’s there, we cook lunch all together every day. And, uh, yeah, yeah, sometimes we make fancy lunch too, you know. Yeah, on Friday, Joni goes to the farmer’s market on the way and then gets some nice vegetables and we make fancy lunch. So, Maybe you should come by and do the podcast on Friday.

Brandon Doughan: 43:12
have a question.

Timothy Sullivan: 43:15
I’ll bring some vegetables. Okay, moving on. Um, let’s go for another question. Now this is a little bit more of a technical question, uh, but I think it’s still really interesting. Can you compare New York City’s water profile to a specific region in Japan that might be similar? And, uh, how might that be with hardness, softness, et cetera? What are your thoughts on the water,

John Puma: 43:39
That’s a

Brandon Doughan: 43:39
mean, it’s,

Shinobu Kato: 43:40
Hiroshima? so?

Brandon Doughan: 43:41
oh, you think so? Because, because the hardness number for new York is 24? So, okay, Hiroshima, all right. Hiroshima is so close to, to, um, like the Miracle Water, like it’s so close to Kobe,

Shinobu Kato: 43:56
so that’s but it’s super soft. Okay, so there’s a between those areas, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:02
okay. The Tojis conferring amongst amongst themselves.

Shinobu Kato: 44:06
Yeah, but definitely not nada. Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:10
can, you translate those numbers for the rest of us now?

Brandon Doughan: 44:12
well, okay. So, so I’ll, I can, I can mostly speak about New York in, in, and the water. Our water is on the soft side, so there’s a hardness number. It’s 24. It’s a, it’s a medium soft number. Um. And I’m not, I won’t speak to Japan. You, you, you two probably couldn’t speak better to the water regions of Japan, but like I, my, my understanding is like northern Japan, it tends to be softer. Is that

John Puma: 44:37
That’s what I’ve heard

Timothy Sullivan: 44:41
other last questions there, John? Um, so,

John Puma: 44:44
Um, well, we’ve got a So this one’s a little Well, I’m just gonna I don’t know if it’s morbid or not. Brandon. As a neighbor of and volunteer at Greenwood Cemetery. Oh, yes. Can you, can you tell us more about the Greenwood Kimoto and how it was developed? Was it just like you, it was a name because it was placed nearby or were there something to it? Did you feel particularly goth that day?

Timothy Sullivan: 45:08
spelled about way,

John Puma: 45:10
in the question.

Brandon Doughan: 45:11
I mean, I always feel about 10 percent goth, but, but the way, the way that you make Kimoto is you, and particularly the way we make it here, is we take our tubs outside, and we have a portion of our shubo outside

John Puma: 45:25
uh huh.

Brandon Doughan: 45:25
and we have little kids stomp on it. and get the initial mixing going, and

John Puma: 45:29
adults, and also adults. How many people here have stomped on the rice outside? All right, so we’ve

Timothy Sullivan: 45:34
a few

John Puma: 45:36
Not, not as many as I thought, there’d be a little more.

Brandon Doughan: 45:38
And, and, yeah, there’s not many kids here, so. My favorite part about it is it involves, uh, child labor, unpaid child labor. in the production of alcohol, um, but, but, but what’s happening there is, is, you know, we’ve just taken rice and steamed it, so it’s sterile, and we bring it outside, so, so there’s bacteria falling on it. Um, and, and that kicks off the lacto fermentation process, or the very complicated Kimoto version of that. Um, and then that produces acid and makes a nice space for yeast to grow. So that’s, that’s how Kimoto is, is done. Um, but we’re in New York City, um, we’ve got a little bit of a, like a pretty courtyard here. Um, but it’s, the rest of it’s kind of a concrete jungle, it’s, it’s not a lot of like, like nature here. But very close to us. is a very old and beautiful cemetery. So that’s gothic, I guess. But it’s very lovely to walk around Greenwood Cemetery. Um, I’ve tried to collect yeast out of the cemetery. Um, it’s, like, it is South Brooklyn’s nature space. For better or worse. But it is, um, and so I’m like kind of paying homage to where we are. And that’s part of the story.

John Puma: 47:00
Okay. So we have, um, there are two, um, Two separate questions for each of our toji today. Um, and uh, so since, um, let’s go Kato san, were there any, were there any issues with the climate when you make sake every day? Uh, because you’re making sake year round, sometimes it’s wintertime, sometimes it’s summertime and you’re in New York and you got to deal with, um, with adjusting for that as, as the things go on. Does that mess with fermentation for you? Do you have to make adjustments for that?

Shinobu Kato: 47:35
for that? Okay.

John Puma: 47:38
Climate in like keeping your, uh, keeping your, your

Shinobu Kato: 47:41
I know climate is a problem as a kind of much bigger, bigger, bigger topic.

John Puma: 47:46
but

Shinobu Kato: 47:47
I know that Climate brewery. Yeah. Yeah.

John Puma: 47:50
Since, since Japanese breweries just brew in the wintertime and you’re

Shinobu Kato: 47:53
I, I know

John Puma: 47:54
days a year, You know, you gotta adjust.

Shinobu Kato: 47:57
You know, as Brandon said, we don’t have like 100 years of experience, so having more controlled environment or climate, meaning like climate in the building, helps us a lot. You know, of course, traditionally, it’s been sake is made in more like a natural setup, so you know, you cannot control the temperature of your tank. It’s up to the, you know, how cold or warm this winter is, poses a lot of extra uncertainty and invaluables for us who does not have that. You know, hundred years of log of how to, you know, work with a different changing environment, right? Oh, and then there are a few things that we can control as a brewer, and climate, or like climate meaning like a more like a, you know, the system climate, is one of the few things that we can control. We cannot control the microbes, but at least we can control the, the, like a climate, right? Temperature, humidity, whatever we have in the tank and in the space. So, that’s a big benefit for, like, modern brewers.

John Puma: 49:11
uh, I, I, brandon, has, anything about your brewing process changed since Brooklyn Kura’s partnership with Hakkaisan? Uh,

Brandon Doughan: 49:22
yes. Um, A, we’ve gone from a 3, 000 square foot space to a 20, 000 square foot space. Um, and, and, and with a lot more machines, so it’s, it’s been a challenge this, this last year to wrap our heads around, um, using all this new equipment, getting it up and running. We worked with really great contractors to build our space, but none of them have ever built a sake brewery before.

John Puma: 49:50
ha ha

Brandon Doughan: 49:50
So we’ve had to like, you know, kind of learn a lot of new things. And then the partnership with Hakaisan is we’re fortunate to have some very technical Kuribito come and help us get to this new scale. And it’s really been a collaboration. So I’ve, I’ve, I’ve like, I’ve been very open to changing how I’ve been making sake. Um, particularly going from 500 kilograms, like the biggest batches we made previously, to 2, 000 kilograms. and I think there’s also a change in the sake brewing on scale. So, we were mentioning earlier that it’s really hard to make a drinkable sake at home. Like, I, I know that probably a lot of people listening to this podcast have tried, it’s, it’s, it’s tough, so it’s not, you’re not, like, doing a bad job, it’s just really, really hard. Um, so, so as you get up to larger scales, a lot of things take care of themselves. At 2, 000 kilograms, the temperature is more moderate, it’s a large thermal mass, so it’s easier to control the temperature in the long range. and so, I already forgot your question, but like, but the way our sake has changed is, is, I think, I really like how Timothy put it at once, it’s, it’s, It’s, our newer versions of the same sake we’re brewing are a softer expression. I think that’s true. I think it’s more rounded. It’s, it’s just, it’s just the scale of it now. and additionally, we, we can, we used to just lay the rice out, uh, like, like, like Shinobu, you were doing now, and, and, and that’s rough in August to cool it down to get it to sake brewing temperatures. but, but now we, we have the, We’re very fortunate to have machines that cool the rice down very quickly. So we, so, so, our seasonal brewing is more normalized now, so we’re, we’re, we’re trying to like, uh, uh, figure that out to be consistent brewers all year round.

Timothy Sullivan: 51:49
Yeah. That’s

Shinobu Kato: 51:50
when we were doing the expansion, that yeah, there’s a lot of small problems, but once you’re bigger, those things will go away. And then actually, they went away for us, too.

Brandon Doughan: 52:02
great,

Shinobu Kato: 52:02
Yeah, so I fully agree with what you told me. Yeah,

John Puma: 52:06
Well, Shinobu, I remember when you were in your first space, you had your, your, your, like, little, like, uh, koji closet it was like, it was probably smaller than the table we’re sitting at right now. It was very like a, like a, like a small, like a, like a train set area. And, uh, it was like, wow, you’re making koji in that? And you’re like, yes, I am.

Timothy Sullivan: 52:24
ha ha

Brandon Doughan: 52:25
And

John Puma: 52:26
And it’s delicious.

Brandon Doughan: 52:27
this

Timothy Sullivan: 52:29
this has been absolutely fantastic. John, I don’t know about you, but I cannot think of a better way to spend sake day than with Brandon and Shinobu and this wonderful audience we have here with us today.

Brandon Doughan: 52:43
come and record with us.

Shinobu Kato: 52:45
so fantastic

Timothy Sullivan: 52:46
all.

Shinobu Kato: 52:50
time

John Puma: 52:50
still wrapping my head around the audience part.

Timothy Sullivan: 52:52
Yes, it’s fantastic.

John Puma: 52:55
this way towards you guys.

Timothy Sullivan: 52:57
It’s been so fantastic to have you guys, Brandon, Shinobu. We want to thank you so much for making the time on Sake day to come and record with us. It’s so great to get your insight, to taste your sake with you, so special. And I just can’t thank you enough for being with us today, so thank you very

Brandon Doughan: 53:15
Oh, thanks for having us,

Shinobu Kato: 53:16
so very much. Thanks for having us. Some really insightful and

Timothy Sullivan: 53:26
All right. now now

John Puma: 53:29
you everybody for providing some really insightful and interesting PG 13 questions. We

Timothy Sullivan: 53:35
Yes, you’re, you’re, this, this crowd is going to put us out of business with our sake questions here.

John Puma: 53:40
we We’re just gonna steal their ideas and incorporate them in the show.

Timothy Sullivan: 53:43
Yes, well, it was so wonderful to taste with both of you, with our beautiful audience. John, always a pleasure. And I just want to thank our listeners so much today for tuning in. You’ll be listening to this after the fact, after Sake Day, but I hope through the audience participation and through our wonderful toji’s here that you got a sense of how much we enjoyed Sake Day here at Brooklyn Kura and tasting these two beautiful sakes. I also want to take a moment and say hello and thank you to our patrons. Thank you so much for supporting us and for making Sake Revolution possible. If you’d like to learn more about supporting our podcast, please visit Patreon.com/sakerevolution.

John Puma: 54:24
There is also a link at SakeRevolution. com to visit our Patreon. But more importantly, there is a link to our show notes in there. Tim, make sure that every episode has a really, really nice transcript of every single episode. Um, I put a little work into that. Tim puts a lot of work into that, so make sure that you check it out because it’s awesome. And, uh, we also talk about this. We also have all the information and photos of the sakes that we taste every time we do this. And on that note, please raise your glass, remember to keep drinking sake, and Kanpai!