Episode 182 Show Notes
Episode 182. In December of 2024 “Sake” received a special recognition from UNESCO – the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. UNESCO is probably most famous for recognizing cultural heritage sites… like Mount Fuji or Himeji Castle. But in the case of of sake made with koji, it was recognized officially as an “Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity”. How cool is that? While this is not exactly hot-off-the-presses breaking news, we wanted to take a moment to recognize and reflect on this milestone. The craft of making sake with koji is worth protecting, celebrating and handing down to the next generation of artisans. Join us as we sip some some sake and enjoy our favorite Intangible Cultural Heritage of Humanity together. #SakeRevolution
Skip to: 00:19 Show Opening
Welcome to the show from John and Timothy
Skip to: 01:31 Unesco
Traditional knowledge and skills of sake-making with koji mold in Japan
Sake is an alcoholic beverage made from grains and water that is deeply rooted in Japanese culture. Craftspeople use koji mould to convert the starch in the ingredients into sugar. They oversee the process to make sure the mould grows in optimal conditions, adjusting the temperature and humidity as needed. Their work determines the quality of the sake. Viewed as a sacred gift from deities, sake is indispensable in festivals, weddings, rites of passage and other socio-cultural occasions. Although it is mass-produced today, craftspeople continue to make sake the traditional way. Chief sake makers, called ‘toji’, lead sake brewery workers, called ‘kurabito’, in the practice and transmission. Originally, sake was made only by women. As demand increased, men became involved in the process. Today, people of all genders can master the knowledge and skills. Sake-making is transmitted through apprenticeships. Regional unions also support breweries, and two national organizations established by craftspeople contribute to the systematic transmission of the practice, with the financial and technical support of the Japanese government. Since sake-making requires many hands and strong teamwork, the practice promotes social ties among the craftspeople. It also unites them with local residents, including the farmers who provide the ingredients, thus contributing to social cohesion.
– UNESCO WEBSITE
UNESCO Website: https://ich.unesco.org/en/RL/traditional-knowledge-and-skills-of-sake-making-with-koji-mold-in-japan-01977
Skip to: 1:41 Sake Tasting: Brooklyn Kura Ashokan & Blue Door
Gangi Natsu Karakuchi Junmai
Alcohol: 15.0%
SMV: +9
Brewery: Yaoshin Shuzo
Classification: Junmai
Importer/Distributor: Mutual Trading
Rice Type: Yamadanishiki, Saito no Shizuku
Rice Milling: 60%
Yeast: Kyokai 901
Acidity: 2.0
Suigei Koiku 54 Junmai Ginjo
Alcohol: 16.0%
SMV: +6.7
Brewery: Suigei Shuzo
Classification: Junmai Ginjo
Importer/Distributor: Mutual Trading
Rice Type: Gin no Yume
Rice Milling: 50%
Yeast: kumamoto Kobo
Acidity: 1.7
Skip to: 30:38 Show Closing
This is it! Join us next time for another episode of Sake Revolution!
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Episode 182 Transcript
John Puma: 0:22
Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first Sake podcast. I am, uh, your host, John Puma. I am the guy who runs the internet sake Discord, as well as Reddits r slash sake community.
Timothy Sullivan: 0:40
And I am your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a Sake Samurai. I’m the Director of Education at the Sake Studies Center. As well as the founder of the Urban Sake website, and every week John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake and doing our best to make it fun and easy to understand.
John Puma: 0:59
Well, hello Tim. How are you doing today?
Timothy Sullivan: 1:04
Hey John, good to see you. I’m doing good.
John Puma: 1:07
Excellent. I’m glad to hear it. today’s episode is gonna be a little more, uh, informative, I think or, or focused on information and Yeah, but, but not, but not the normal kind of how sake is made. Kinda information. We’re not gonna be talking about Ginjo necessairly and what, but we’re gonna be talking about something a little bit more, uh, a little bit more, um, intangible maybe. Maybe,
Timothy Sullivan: 1:31
Well. I, let me start by asking you this. If I say the word unesco, first of all, unesco, do you know what that stands for? And what do you think of when you hear the word unesco?
John Puma: 1:44
I think of high school ’cause I think that’s when I first heard the term unesco. I think it’s also the last time I knew what UNESCO stood for.
Timothy Sullivan: 1:54
Well, I can refresh your memory. UNESCO means the United Nations Educational, scientific and Cultural Organization. So this is an agency of the United Nations fosters international cooperation with education, science, and culture. So it’s a, it’s an agency of the United Nations. And I think there’s one thing that UNESCO is really famous for, right?
John Puma: 2:20
I know that they do the world heritage stuff. They focus on kind of finding things that are like culturally relevant to different, to different countries, uh, and, you know, and their, and their impact on the world at large. And try to represent and, and focus on these things and be like, okay, this is special and this is why it’s special.
Timothy Sullivan: 2:40
Yeah. What I think most people think of when they think of UNESCO is the World Heritage Program, which, uh, is a program that UNESCO runs to identify, preserve, and protect cultural and natural sites that they say are of outstanding universal value, and. In the US we have a number of UNESCO World heritage sites. The Grand Canyon is one. The Statue of Liberty is one, but they also have some in Japan. So Himeji Castle and Mount Fuji are both cultural heritage sites. Um, yeah. Everywhere around the world they have about. 1,248 as of right now. So there’s 1,248 of these, uh, world Heritage sites around the world.
John Puma: 3:34
Cool. That’s pretty nice.
Timothy Sullivan: 3:36
And that’s like, that’s I think, the most famous thing that you UNESCO does. And when you visit a place and they say, oh, we’re a World Heritage site, you know, that has a certain cachet, right.
John Puma: 3:47
Right. Or or at least, or at least they want you to think so. No. No. Um, no. Uh, yes. Absolutely. Yes.
Timothy Sullivan: 3:55
Yeah. So, but in addition to that, UNESCO has, uh, many layers to, to what they do. They also have a program that recognizes what they call intangible cultural heritage. So the, the world heritage sites are physical places.
John Puma: 4:13
Sure.
Timothy Sullivan: 4:14
And the intangible cultural heritage of humanity is another thing that they focus on, and that’s more. Uh, you know, as intangible as you said before, it’s, it’s things that are, uh, traditions or expressions of humanity that are passed down from ancestors, ancestors to descendants. These could be things like performing arts, rituals. Festival events, but what we’re gonna focus on today is something that was recently added to this intangible cultural heritage of humanity that has to do with sake. And this falls into the tradition of preserving traditional crafts.
John Puma: 4:58
So now sake is considered a traditional craft.
Timothy Sullivan: 5:01
Yes.
John Puma: 5:02
Ooh, sake making, I guess I should say.
Timothy Sullivan: 5:04
yes. So. The official description of what they have recognized as an intangible cultural heritage of humanity is the traditional knowledge and skills of sake making with Koji mold in Japan.
John Puma: 5:22
That’s very specific.
Timothy Sullivan: 5:24
Let me, let me read that again. The traditional knowledge and skills of sake making with Koji mold in Japan.
John Puma: 5:30
So, hang on a second, is you said sake making.
Timothy Sullivan: 5:35
yes.
John Puma: 5:35
I’m an American, so I need to ask you, are we talking sake making h you making or are we talking sake making alcohol? Making,
Timothy Sullivan: 5:45
Yeah, so that’s a really good point, John. In Japan, the word sake means alcohol in general. I think we’ve mentioned that before on the podcast.
John Puma: 5:55
if we didn’t, we’re not to run our jobs.
Timothy Sullivan: 5:57
No, I remember we did the How to Order Sake in Japan, episode one of our most popular travel. Travel sake vocabulary episode, and we mentioned there that the word sake in Japan means alcohol in general. So when they say here that they’re recognizing the traditional knowledge and skills of sake making with Koji mold, they’re referring to making alcohol with Koji. That includes what we call sake nihonshu, but it also refers to awamori and Shochu for that matter.
John Puma: 6:32
Interesting. So, so even though we’re talking about sake on this podcast, nihonshu, if you’re in Japan, uh, this unesco uh, recognition is that, is that the right word for it?
Timothy Sullivan: 6:46
yeah. That’s right.
John Puma: 6:47
Okay. This recognition covers the whole thing, the whole gamut.
Timothy Sullivan: 6:53
Any alcohol in Japan made with Koji Falls under the recognition of this UNESCO listing. And there are over 670 elements that have been added to UNESCO’s intangible cultural history lists. Um, in Jamaica, reggae music is recognized as an, uh. As a intangible cultural heritage of humanity. And in India, they’ve recognized yoga.
John Puma: 7:25
Hmm.
Timothy Sullivan: 7:26
Uh, in Japan. In Japan, they have a number of intangible cultural heritages, including kabuki theater that was recognized in 2008. Um. washi paper making, you that Very delicate Japanese paper making. And also washoku, which is traditional Japanese cuisine. So Japanese cuisine was also recognized as an intangible cultural heritage of humanity. So to this li very esteemed list, they
John Puma: 7:57
right up there with reggae? No, I, I actually, I, I honestly am like, yeah, reggae should be on there. That’s like, awesome. I think that’s really cool.
Timothy Sullivan: 8:07
Yeah. And it’s, if you know, we’ll put a link to the UNESCO World Heritage Site and it’s fun to just like look through and see what for different cultures of the world, like what they’ve petitioned to be recognized as something that is of such a value to humanity, that it should be preserved and protected. And I think that, you know, I’ve listened to a few interviews with. Representatives from Japan, and this is something where you have to do a lot of paperwork and applications and you know, you have to apply to have this recognized, and it’s a political effort to, to get everyone in your country on board with submitting this to UNESCO and getting it recognized. But I think that there are, three reasons why they wanted to do this for sake, making with Koji.
John Puma: 9:01
Hang on a second before you go any further. I love that you said that there’s a lot of paperwork and, and, and effort that goes into this. And lemme tell you, if there’s a country that has people that, uh, that have that respect and appreciate the effort of paperwork, it is Japan. So they
Timothy Sullivan: 9:17
my
John Puma: 9:17
been like, let’s go, you know, let’s do this.
Timothy Sullivan: 9:20
You have not lived until you’ve gone to a Japanese stationary store. Oh my gosh. It, it is like a little slice of heaven for me. Uh. So that’s true, John. Yeah, they, they were down with that and they got it done. So this recognition was officially registered with UNESCO in December of last year, so 2024. So this recognition isn’t even a year old, but it was so much work, so much paperwork, so much political will to get this done. Why would they want to do this UNESCO recognition for. Sake made with Koji.
John Puma: 10:03
Well, I, I, in my mind, I feel like just is something that Japan would want with, with sake being a, a, a special thing to them and with. Sake, breweries popping up outside of Japan, at a rapid clip these days. And also, you know, sake making in Japan is a little bit in under threat, not just through, not just due to climate change, but also, uh, due to kind of like lagging domestic sales and things like that. I think this is something that they were hoping could maybe, uh, kind of given a punch in the arm. Was I right on any of that?
Timothy Sullivan: 10:36
Well, you were right saying that. The market for sake in Japan is shrinking. No one can dispute that it is shrinking and the market is not growing in Japan. But from the interviews I listened to for the different, uh, representatives that they actually have an ambassador to, uh, the UN from Japan, and that person kind of leads the charge for these types of recognitions. And I listened to an interview with him and he mentioned three things that. Really we’re the driving force behind wanting to get this recognition for sake making with Koji. Uh, the first one is that they hope that for everyday regular Japanese citizens, this will renew the interest in sake.
John Puma: 11:19
Okay. So, so that, that number one, it’s that, that, boom, I got that one.
Timothy Sullivan: 11:26
Yeah. And I think that makes sense. If something that is every day. In your culture is recognized on the world stage like that, how can it not help you, like, refocus your energy on that? I think that one is good. Uh, the next thing they mentioned was, uh, transmitting the skills of Koji making and sake making to the next generation. So when you have this renewed interest, maybe there will be more young people up and coming who will wanna learn these. Skills. It’s been recognized as something that is of cultural importance to humanity, not just to Japanese people, but to humanity. And these, uh, traditional crafts and methods of making Koji need to be preserved and protected. So that was another hope that this recognition will get people of younger generations to wanna learn how to do this.
John Puma: 12:18
Okay. All right. That makes sense. I, I got the, uh, the pop, the aging population, and, and I think we’ve talked about this on the show before. Now, I’m sure we’ve talked about this on the show before, but there is this, this idea in Japan among, specifically among the young people that sake is like the grandpa’s drink, right? It’s not, I don’t, I don’t even think it’s like your dad’s drink anymore. It’s probably moved on to like grandpa’s drink. Uh, and so, you know, a lot of the, the Sake Izakayas is that do really well or ones that are appealing to younger people and able to get them in the door and uh, and, and, and bring this to a new generation.
Timothy Sullivan: 12:54
Yeah. And the, uh, the third thing that they mentioned was connected to exports. Like the, the one area of sake sales that’s really growing is the export market for Japanese made sake. So, um, bolstering the reputation of sake on the world stage through this UNESCO recognition. I think they also hope that that will support and. Continue that trend of exports growing year over year and having it recognized, um, should support that according to the ambassador to the UN from Japan. And I think all those things make sense and, uh, yeah.
John Puma: 13:37
that’s pretty cool.
Timothy Sullivan: 13:38
So do you think they’ll be effective with those things? What do you think about this type of recognition? How does it land with you, JP?
John Puma: 13:46
I’m very glad they’re doing this, and I think that. It is important to showcase, you know, things that are special about your culture. And to me, obviously, I, I am a person that journeys to Japan every year to try new and interesting sake. And I live in a city that is very friendly to receiving sake. So, yeah, like I, I think that, it fits the bill, right? This is something very special and unique about their culture, about their situation. Uh, and I, and I, I love the idea of, the rest of the world stage, recognizing that at least that that’s my takeaway. That’s my main takeaway.
Timothy Sullivan: 14:30
Yeah. Well, maybe as. A button on this whole discussion. I actually went to the UNESCO site and I mentioned there was paperwork and forms to fill out, and there’s actually an application form for this recognition that was online. And they had a brief summary of their argument for wanting to get this recognition. And maybe as a way to conclude our discussion, would it, would you indulge me and let me just read this little paragraph about, uh, their thinking on
John Puma: 15:02
Please.
Timothy Sullivan: 15:03
Alright, so this is from the brief or the application to become a. Intangible cultural heritage of humanity for sake making with Koji. this is the nomination of the traditional knowledge and skills for sake making that have been developed through the accumulation of experience of craftspersons since ancient times
John Puma: 15:27
Mm.
Timothy Sullivan: 15:27
sake, also known as a Japanese alcoholic beverage made from grains and quality waters is deeply rooted in Japanese culture. An important feature of this element or of this application is using Koji mold, which converts starch in the ingredients into sugar craftspersons sprinkle koji mold spores onto steamed grain to start the fermentation process and oversee it to make sure the Koji mold grows to its optimal condition. They make adjustments to the temperature and humidity, which requires full use of their five senses. Their labor decides the quality of the sake, the skills using koji mold have been developed reflecting the natural features and climate of regions. And gave rise to various kinds of sake, meaning various kinds of alcohol such as nihonshu, which we know as sake, Shochu and awamori.
John Puma: 16:32
Mm-hmm.
Timothy Sullivan: 16:33
So they are proud of their skills and the public and private sectors that support them. This application is vital in present day Japan as a living heritage.
John Puma: 16:47
Hmm.
Timothy Sullivan: 16:47
So they explained that really the crux here is the use of Koji and kind of harnessing koji mold as a way to get sugars out of grains and makes different alcohols from that is really at the crux of this application. So I think if you, if you look at the headline for this, it sounds like, oh sake is a cultural thing. By unesco, but it’s really not. It’s not what you and I call sake. It’s really alcohol made using Koji and the craft of using Koji and how important that is. And I think that’s really cool. You do have to dig a little deeper. You have to scratch the surface to get down to the true meaning of this intangible cultural heritage. But, uh, it’s really worthwhile to read the descriptions and learn what they’re really protecting here, which is the traditional craft and knowledge of making Koji.
John Puma: 17:50
Yeah, I, I wanna say that, you know, prior to looking. Further into it. And this is Oh, absolutely what you did here too. Uh, you know, when I, you first hear, oh, sake, blah, blah, blah, blah, unesco, and you think that they’re recognizing nihonshu like that is, uh, the, the immediate thought. Um, because in the West we just think of it that way and, and, uh. Even in my circles, in my head I hear, because they’re saying sake. I didn’t think to think they meant the Japanese term for sake. It is very interesting that it is the broader definition. Um, but yeah, it’s a thing that I’m glad they’re doing. You know, it’s a, I think it’s, it’s important. I don’t know, you know, I never know how much of an impact these things are gonna have. You know, I, I, all we can do is try, but we never know what, you know, what the end result will be. Uh, what do you think?
Timothy Sullivan: 18:36
Yeah, I think that 99% of the English speaking world when they read sake making with Koji, they’re gonna think of, of nihonshu of sake, that the way you and I understand it, and unfortunately I think that’s gonna leave Shochu and awamori a little bit. Uh, forgotten, but they’re in there too. They’re, they’re totally a part of this. So anyone who digs a little deeper will get the full picture. For me, as someone who has sake as a career, having this, as something to talk about in my classes, to talk to my students about this. You know, being recognized as a cultural heritage of humanity and how this craft needs to be passed on to the next generation and how important it is. Uh, that’s just really, really cool. And I think it’s well, well worth the effort
John Puma: 19:26
I think so too. Um, speaking of, quality products made with Koji that have the word sake in them, um, you know, we haven’t had any sake yet, Tim. I think we’ve got a, if we’re gonna be talking about, uh, about this and celebrating this,, this achievement, we should. We celebrated our own way and sip some of it. Now, I don’t have any shochu or Awamori on my desk right now, but I do, I do. As often. Is the case on this show have a nihonshu? Uh, and I believe you do too. Is that, is that the case?
Timothy Sullivan: 20:01
Yes, do not, do not tell Japan distilled, but I am freshed out of Shochu right at the moment.
John Puma: 20:07
Well.
Timothy Sullivan: 20:08
I think we’re gonna have to go with some old fashioned nihonshu, as we say, Japanese sake. And, uh, you and I have both selected one of our. Favorite brands each. And a wonderful, a wonderful expression of sake made from Koji. And uh, so John, why don’t you give us the lowdown on what you are tasting and then I’ll do the same for my sake.
John Puma: 20:35
This is. A sake I did not expect to have on this show because one thing that we always try to focus on is sake that you can get in the United States, and this is a sake that earlier this year I had in Japan, and the reason I had it was because the brand I love dearly, and it was a bottle. I thought there’d be no chance we’d be coming to the United States. So when I was in Hiroshima. I was at a, an izakaya and I saw they had this bottle of the Gangi Natsu Junmai, the, the Summer Sake from Gangi. And I absolutely love Gangi. Gangi is from Yamaguchi right by Hiroshima. Really, really great stuff there. And so I had, I had a sip of it, and this is, and I thought it was lovely, and I thought that was gonna be the last time I had that sake for quite a while. Lo and behold. Our friends here in New York at Mutual Trading have picked up this sake, and it’s now available here, and I could not be happier because I, I’m, again, a big fan of their stuff and, and I also really like Natsu sake. I’m happy when people bring it over and I’m always happy to see more of it here. So,
Timothy Sullivan: 21:46
Now, let’s clarify. You’re saying Natsu. Natsu, which means summer?
John Puma: 21:53
This is summer sake. This is not anything else. Oh my goodness, Tim, I didn’t even think of that. Uh. Anyway, so, um, this is, um, I’m gonna be drinking the, uh, Gangi Natsu, uh, they’re, they’re calling it Karakuchi, so it is a little dry, apparently. Uh, Junmai, uh, it is made with, Yamadanishiki for the Koji. And, uh, Saito no Shizuku for the Kakemai, the, uh, the Starch component. The rice polishing for both is 60%. We’re dealing with, Kyokai 9 0 1 yeast. The sake meter value, that measure of dry just sweet is plus nine. So that karakuchi was true. It is a touch dry, um, uh, a little more than a touch. The acidity is two and the A BV is 15%. So, uh, touch light, not as light as some natsu, but but a touch on the lighter side of things. Now, while I’m getting ready to pour this, Tim, why aren’t you talking about what you’ve got?
Timothy Sullivan: 22:52
Yeah, so I also wanted to pick a very classic and much loved brand from Japan to highlight this UNESCO honoring sake making with Koji. So I went with a sake from Suigei, Often known in English as drunken whale. This is a Junmai Ginjo, and this is their Suigei Koiku 54.
John Puma: 23:17
Yes, Uh, that’s a wonderful sake.
Timothy Sullivan: 23:22
Yeah. Uh, the rice variety that’s used is Gin no Yume polished to 50% remaining. The alcohol is 16%. Uh, the SMV is plus 6.7 with an acidity of 1.3. Uh, so I think this falls into the light and dry cleaner category. Right? Sounds right up
John Puma: 23:44
Mm-hmm.
Timothy Sullivan: 23:45
And, yeah. And the Prefecture is Kochi Prefecture.
John Puma: 23:51
Yeah. Wonderful sake from a wonderful Prefecture and a wonderful brewery.
Timothy Sullivan: 23:55
Yeah. All right, so I’m going to open this and get it into my glass.
John Puma: 23:59
Mm-hmm. And while you are getting that one into your glass, I’m going to take a little whiff of the aroma on my Gangi Natsu
Timothy Sullivan: 24:12
All right, John, so go for it. Why don’t you do your tasting first? Let’s hear. Um, I, I have not had the Gangi Natsu, but I don’t think it’s a secret If I reveal to the world here and now that I am a Gangi fanboy of the first order,
John Puma: 24:26
It just means you have taste, Tim. It’s okay.
Timothy Sullivan: 24:28
okay.
John Puma: 24:31
Hmm. Uh, so the aroma on this is, it is just a nice light, like fluffy kind of, um, pillowy aroma. Like a, like a very, not, not ginjo ka in your face, but a soft sort of, um, almost sweet rice. Very, very soft hints of fruit. This is wonderful. Very subtle. Uh, and then on the taste on the palate. Mm. So this is nice and dry, especially on the Finish. Nice and crisp. You would love this, Tim. This is right up your alley. Uh. there’s, there’s a tiny, it’s still a little bit of acidity on it too, not nothing too distracting just really goes really well. It’s all very well balanced. Hmm. It’s dry. It’s not aggressively dry. This wants food desperately. And I think it’s gonna go with a lot of nice things that you compare with it. That dryness is gonna go super well with fish, especially, I think this is the sushi lover’s dream right here. Hmm. Really good stuff. I’m very happy about it.
Timothy Sullivan: 25:40
Let’s talk for one moment about Natsu sake, um, summer, summer sake. What? If I’m a consumer and I see that the bottle says Natsu or summer sake on it, what can you kind of expect from that? Like what do you think I’ve, I’ve got some ideas about what it means and what, how I would serve it, but do you have any thoughts on that?
John Puma: 26:04
I do In my mind, uh, the Natsu, the Summer sakes, you’re generally gonna get a little bit of a lower A BV because this is, you know. You’re not just dealing with summer in, in whatever part of the world you’re in, you’re dealing with summer in Japan, which can be punishingly, hot and humid and super high A BV sake. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s not a great idea. When it’s really hot out, it’s gonna, you know, dehydrated. It’s, it’s not a, you know, it’s not the move. So, a little bit lower on the alcohol content and. also a little bit tend to be a tiny bit like crisper and drier, which I really enjoy. you know, just, just very like, you know, soft and drinkable stuff with a, with that, with that nice little bit of crispness on the, on the finish. I see that a lot. You know, you don’t get the, the viscous fruit bombs. You get the lighter, thinner, soft-bodied stuff, not the heavy, you know. It’s hot out. I’m gonna drink this heavy, high alcohol sake. Like, no, it’s gonna be stuff that’s gonna go nice and cold. It’s gonna be stuff that’s nice and smooth.
Timothy Sullivan: 27:07
Yeah, I think for me the primary note on serving a Natsu sake Susa is that it should be nice and chilly willy, like nice and cold. Uh, it is summer in Japan, as you said, and if you’re out there sweating to the oldies. Getting around Japan, you know, you want something that is gonna be cold and crisp, and I think that the drier styles lend themselves to that serving temperature, so, so well. So, uh, when I see Natsu, I think like this should be served icy, cold and crisp.
John Puma: 27:43
Absolutely.
Timothy Sullivan: 27:44
Yeah.
John Puma: 27:45
So let’s talk about the Suigei.
Timothy Sullivan: 27:48
Drunken whale.
John Puma: 27:49
Yeah.
Timothy Sullivan: 27:51
Koiku 54. Uh, again from Suigei. If I give this a little, aroma test. Let’s see.
John Puma: 27:58
Mm-hmm.
Timothy Sullivan: 27:59
Okay, so this has aromatics that lean more towards the Rice-y side of sake. I’m not getting. Tropical fruits or a classic ginjo ka, I’m getting more of a balanced rice aroma, and it gives me the impression from smelling this, that I might get a hint of dryness on the palate, uh, just from like my intuition from smelling this type of aroma. So a little bit on the rice side, but very balanced, not overpowering, uh, not too much ethanol or alcohol aroma. Just really good balance, but more, more on the Rice-y side and let’s give it a taste. Hmm. So this is, really interesting. It does. It is overall dry. The finish is dry, uh, but it’s not crisp and light. This has a little bit of layered richness to it, and the rice flavor comes forward. The most. So again, I’m not getting much of a fruity characteristic at all. It’s, uh, bringing that Gin no Yume rice flavor forward.
John Puma: 29:03
Uh, for everybody at home. The Gin no yume was a rice cultivated by sake, well, not by sake brewers, but by farmers in Kochi, for sake, brewing specifically. So it is a local, specifically a local rice that’s been, that’s been bred specifically for Kochi sake.
Timothy Sullivan: 29:19
Yeah. When I sip on this, the word that keeps coming to mind is like layered or depth of flavor. Like you get the initial hit of the flavor and then it unlocks a few more layers. As the sake washes across your palate, and these are a little bit more grain or rice forward. Again, not getting much fruitiness or, uh, tropical fruits here, uh, more, uh, rice forward, but really delicious and above all, the balance is there, which is a danger when something. You’d call it rice. Is it too rice? No. You’ve got balance between the, small amount of residual sugar, the alcohol and the rice flavor. That kind of, um, like a, just a, a, a whisper of umami as well. All kind of play together really well and bring great balance. So I think this is a food friendly sake. The finish is, is a little drier than I was expecting, but I’m really enjoying it.
John Puma: 30:17
I mean, Ika is kind of known for making dry sake. I think they, the Tokubetsu Junmai is like the king of dry sake in some cases. Some people encountered that as their first, like first like super dry sake and they really like it a lot for that reason.
Timothy Sullivan: 30:30
yeah,
John Puma: 30:31
I think that this comes in a little bit lighter than, um, than the Tokubetsu Junmai. I think it’s a fabulous sake that’s so drinkable.
Timothy Sullivan: 30:39
Yeah, the Tokubetsu Junmai from Suigei, which we’ve had on the show a few times as well, that is like the poster child for medium bodied, dry sake. You know, just like, just, you know, if you’re out with your friend and they don’t know what to get, just say, just give them that and just say, here, drink this. You’re gonna love it. And it like wins every time.
John Puma: 30:59
It’s really good.
Timothy Sullivan: 31:00
Yeah.
John Puma: 31:02
So, Tim, this was a lot of fun. I, I, I learned a few things today about unesco. It’s been a long time since I’ve even thought about unesco. Uh, and thank you for bringing it to my attention. Uh, also fun to sip this with you.
Timothy Sullivan: 31:16
Yeah, I think that, you know, this happened last December, so we can’t classify this as breaking news. but I thought that this still warranted an episode and it warranted us taking a moment to pause and alert our listeners, who are all. You know, emerging sake fans of, all levels that, this is something that happened late last year and it’s something we can all look to, to raise the profile of sake across the world. So, uh, we couldn’t let it. Go without acknowledging this amazing elevation of, sake made with Koji as an intangible cultural heritage. So happy to talk to you about this. Thanks for indulging me, jp.
John Puma: 32:04
always a good time. Always a good time.
Timothy Sullivan: 32:07
All right. Well, it was great to taste with you. We had two amazing sakes on the show today. Um, I also want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in. Thank you so much. We hope you enjoyed this episode. A special hello and thank you to all of our Patreon members. If you’re looking for a way to support Sake Revolution, one thing you can do is join us and support us on Patreon. Please visit patreon.com/sakerevolution to learn more.
John Puma: 32:35
And if you’re a fan of ours and you wanna check out our show notes, we talk about our show notes a lot on this show. And honestly, that’s because we put a lot of effort into them. And so, um, you know, there’s. Not just, uh, you know, pictures of the bottles for everything that we drink. We have a lot more in depth statistics on a lot of the sakes that we have. We also have a full transcript. If you, you know, wanna read something instead of listening, that’s completely fine. Yeah, so get over to sakerevolution.com and, uh, and check all of that out. Now, Tim, grab your glass and you went home too. Make sure you grab your glasses, we’re gonna congratulate sake on its intangible cultural heritage recognition from unesco. So remember to keep drinking sake and kanpai.