John Puma: 0:21

Hello everybody and welcome to Sake Revolution. This is America’s first sake podcast. I’m your host John Puma from the Sake Notes, also the administrator over at the internet Sake Discord and lead mod at Reddit’s r slash sake community. Mm

Timothy Sullivan: 0:37

And I’m your host, Timothy Sullivan. I’m a sake samurai. I’m the director of education at the Sake Study Center of Brooklyn Kura, as well as the founder of the Urban Sake website. And every week, John and I will be here tasting and chatting about all things sake, and doing our best to make it fun and interesting. And easy to understand.

John Puma: 0:55

hmm. That is right, Tim. And what are we tasting and chatting about this week?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:01

Well, John, there’s an episode I’ve been planning literally for years, I’m so excited to do it today. Uh, it is a sake and food pairing and a little bit outside the box. Today, we’re going to talk about. Sake and cheese.

John Puma: 1:21

Um, cheese, huh? Did I, did I forget to mention that I don’t eat cheese, Tim?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:27

You don’t eat cheese?

John Puma: 1:28

I don’t eat cheese.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:30

Hmm. What are we going to do?

John Puma: 1:32

I, I don’t know, but like, I hope you have somebody else that can eat cheese with you because I cannot eat cheese with you.

Timothy Sullivan: 1:39

Well, let’s phone a friend and get someone in here to fill your shoes.

John Puma: 1:44

Ooh,

Timothy Sullivan: 1:44

Boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.

John Puma: 1:45

shoes?

Timothy Sullivan: 1:46

I am happy to introduce John’s better half, Myshell Puma, who is a verified cheese lover, crazy style sake expert, and alumni of Sake Revolution. Welcome, Myshell. Welcome to the show.

Myshell Puma: 2:02

Hi! Thank you for having me. I’m very excited to finally get to be your cheese surrogate. I’ve heard you guys talking about this episode for ages. I’ve been practicing. I’ve eaten so much goat cheese. I’m ready.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:19

so you have no trouble eating cheese, right?

Myshell Puma: 2:23

No, probably the opposite. I have trouble not eating cheese. Oh,

Timothy Sullivan: 2:30

you’re relegated to the sidelines. I’m sorry to say.

John Puma: 2:33

I’m gonna, I’m gonna, I’m gonna take the bench tonight for the most part. I’ll, I’ll be back when you guys are tasting the sake to give the non cheese lovers opinion of the sake. But for the most part, I want you guys to fly and have a good time.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:46

Now, Myshell, We’ve been talking about doing a sake and cheese episode literally for years, right?

Myshell Puma: 2:53

Yes. I have been waiting for this moment.

Timothy Sullivan: 2:58

Here we are. Now, when we first started talking about this, I had very little confidence about sake and cheese. And I thought about bringing in a third party cheese expert to talk about the cheese part. Um, But in the meantime, I happened to start a sake school at Brooklyn Kura, and we’ve been offering a cheese class there for several months. And I did a deep dive in cheese, gained 10 pounds, and it has been The most delicious thing I’ve done in the world of sake, like literally no joke. This has been my favorite thing to explore is sake and cheese. Now, before we start, have you had a sake and cheese pairing experience before, Myshell?

Myshell Puma: 3:40

yeah, I would call some of those things sake and cheese experiences. it’s definitely been something on my radar that, you know, sake and cheese is a great, a great pairing, a great thing to do. I’ve never had anyone who is certified or teaching courses on it. It’s just sort of been, you know, at restaurants or other sake or cheese lovers. Um, the one that sticks out to me the most is we were at a bar in New York, a sake bar in New York, years ago. And they were like, oh, you know, sake and cheese, it goes so well together, like, you’ve gotta try this. And they gave me a sake. I don’t remember. And they’re like, here, try this! And handed me cheese, stuffed it right in my mouth. It was just a huge piece of blue cheese. It was, very intimidating. It was a lot. I’m not really a blue cheese eater, especially just like giant nug of blue cheese, but you know what? It did pair well. It did pair well.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:32

Sounds like you started out by jumping into the deep end there.

Myshell Puma: 4:36

You know? I, that’s true, but I, you know, I guess that’s how I do things, so it’s okay.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:41

Very crazy style entrance into sake and cheese pairing. I like that. That’s very on brand for you.

Myshell Puma: 4:47

Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 4:48

Now, do you have any expectations for today or anything you’re nervous about or excited about?

Myshell Puma: 4:54

Well, at first I was very nervous, I’ve heard a lot about your course, And I’ve heard a lot of good things about your course. So I was just like, Oh, you know, how am I going to match up to all of your expertise? But then I had the most glamorous package of cheese and sake delivered to me. And I have these beautifully wrapped cheeses and sake. I don’t want to give anything away too soon, but this has just been a sublime experience so far. And I’m ready to be pampered with the sake and cheese pairing.

Timothy Sullivan: 5:24

Yes, this is a sake and cheese spa, so you don’t need, yes, you don’t need to worry about anything. I’m going to take care of you and guide you through the world of sake and cheese. And we’re here to have you enjoy it. And all I want is your feedback and ideas and reaction to what we experience. Now, when I do the sake and cheese class at the Sake Studies Center, we taste a total of five different combinations. To keep things a little more compact for the episode today, I picked three very different styles of cheese, three fun sakes, several of which we’ve already had on the show, but I think they’re great examples of their style and, you know, we might have a topping or two to mix things up, but, I think that we should delay no longer and get started. Now, what I would like to do. is perhaps introduce you first to the cheese, and then we can talk about the sake very briefly, and then start the pairing. And we’ll do that like three times for each of the pairings. How does that sound?

Myshell Puma: 6:29

That sounds great. Is that the same way that you do it for your classes at Brooklyn Kura?

Timothy Sullivan: 6:33

Yeah, that’s exactly what we do. Yep. We talk about the cheese first, we pour the sake, and then we taste them together and talk about it, what we like, what we don’t like. And, We do that for each, each of the pairings. Now, as we move through, the cheeses are going to get more firm and more intense in flavor as we go from beginning to end. So I am super excited about this first cheese. Now I’m going to tell you just a little story about this first one. So this is a cheese from Burgundy, France, and it’s called Brillat-Savarin. And Brillat-Savarin is. the name of a person, a real live person. He lived in France during the French Revolution and afterwards. And the way I describe him in my class is this dude was the Anthony Bourdain of revolutionary France. So he, he wrote the most famous book about Enjoying food and culinary experiences in the 1820s. It’s called the physiology of taste. And he was super, super famous for writing like one of the first books that focused on the enjoyment of food and eating. Uh, he was a lawyer. and lived in France before the French Revolution, fled to America for a few years, and he supported himself by teaching French and violin lessons. And then he came back to France when the revolution was over and wrote this really famous book, which was published the year that he passed away, which is 1826. So he’s famous in France as being like, a gourmand or a, you know, someone who’s a really famous foodie from history. And they named this cheese after him. So that’s the guy that the cheese is named after. Uh, the first cheese we’re going to have is again called Brillat-Savarin, which is this guy’s name. It is a triple cream cheese. Now, have you ever had heard of triple cream before?

Myshell Puma: 8:41

it sounds familiar. I think those are the ones that are usually a little bit more melty, a little more liquidy, right?

Timothy Sullivan: 8:48

That’s exactly right. Very goopy. They take a pasteurized cow’s milk, so regular whole cow’s milk, and then they add cream to that when they’re making the cheese. So normally if you have like a firmer cheese, it’s just cow’s milk, but this has cream added to it. So that gives it a very buttery texture. And This has been the crowd favorite in almost all the classes that I’ve taught on cheese.

Myshell Puma: 9:19

Ooh, and we’re starting with a favorite.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:20

starting with the favorite, but it is such a great place to start. So this is, uh, French cheese again from Burgundy, uh, triple cream, soft ripened cheese. And you’ll notice if you look at this cheese and we’ll have pictures of all these cheeses in the show notes, but do you see the white rind on the outside? That looks a little. Soft?

Myshell Puma: 9:41

Yes. It’s, mine is sort of peeling away.

Timothy Sullivan: 9:43

Yes. This is what’s known as a bloomy rind because this is actually a fungus that grows on the outside and they mix the fungus culture into the milk and cream when they’re making the cheese. And then when they set it out afterwards, it grows this natural bloomy, white fungus on the outside, which is completely edible. Some people skip it when they’re eating the cheese. I love to eat it. Uh, but that fungus that you see growing the white, if you’ve ever seen like a camembert or a Brie, you know, they have that white fuzzy exterior. Um, it’s the same with this, uh, triple cream. Cheese.

Myshell Puma: 10:21

Very interesting, didn’t know it was a fungus. it looks like it would make a great cracker, honestly. Like, so the, I, mine was in the fridge for a while, it’s only been out for, I don’t know, five or ten minutes or so, and it’s already quite melty, but the, that exterior part that you’re talking about is still really holding firm.

Timothy Sullivan: 10:39

That’s kind of like going to hold it together until we’re ready to eat it. Now, let’s move to the sake that I’m going to pair with this. This triple cream cheese is very buttery, very rich. It’s super luscious on the palate. Some people describe it as like the ice cream of cheese. borders on deserty because it’s so creamy and rich. So the sake that I’ve paired with this super rich cheese is actually a sparkling sake. And I’ve gone close to home with my, brand that I represent, Hakkaisan. So I’ve chosen Hakkaisan Awa. Which is a Champagne Method sparkling sake. This is bright, refreshing, and the bubbles really scrub your palate when you sip on this sake. And I think it’s fattiness of this, of this cheese.

Myshell Puma: 11:36

This is amazing. Hakkaisan’s sparkling sake lines are my, some of my most favorite, uh, sparkling sake. Definitely some of the best you can get in New York, for sure. Yeah?

Timothy Sullivan: 11:50

for the listeners at home, I’m going to open this sparkling right now into my microphone. John, you ready for this?

John Puma: 11:56

Oh, I’m, I’m prepared.

Timothy Sullivan: 11:58

Okay. All right. So, Myshell, I have some good news. We are ready to do our first pairing.

Myshell Puma: 12:08

This is definitely good news. I’m pouring mine now.

Timothy Sullivan: 12:10

Okay. So let me read off the stats for this sake while you’re pouring. This is Hakkaisan Awa. It’s a champagne method sparkling, secondary in bottle fermentation, from Hakkaisan Sake Brewery out of Niigata. The rice is Gohyaku Mangoku. Miyamanishiki and Yamadanishiki all polished to 50%. The alcohol here is a little bit lower at 13%. Acidity is 1. 4. SMV is minus five. And the, of course, the English name for Hakkaisan is eight peaks. All right. So now Myshell, I haven’t, I don’t know if I’ve spoken about this on the show before, but I do have a recommended method for pairing. And I always talk about this in my cheese class. I call it the Oreo method when you’re pairing sake and food. So if you think about an Oreo cookie, you’ve got two cookies, and the cream center. So what I recommend is sipping the sake, taking a bite of cheese, and sipping the sake again. So you kind of sandwich the cheese between two small sips of sake. So why don’t we, why don’t we

Myshell Puma: 13:25

a much better method. I thought when you said Oreo, you meant we were going to dunk the cheese in the sake. Which I was also down for, but

Timothy Sullivan: 13:34

Oh my god, that’s amazing. We, we can try that. That can be the after show. We can try that.

John Puma: 13:41

That’ll

Myshell Puma: 13:41

Ooh, like if we want to like Ooh, like sake fondue.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:45

Yes. I love it. Okay. Let’s give this a taste. I want to, I want to get your reaction and you too, John.

John Puma: 13:51

That’s just lovely.

Myshell Puma: 13:52

is so fresh. I have mine in a champagne flute.

Timothy Sullivan: 13:55

Love

Myshell Puma: 13:56

it is so like nosy, it just smells like I’m in a brewery and it tastes like I’m getting it straight out of the brewery as well.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:03

Yeah. What I love about this sake, John, I don’t know if you feel that as well, but I get a little hint of melon. Like it’s always like this, uh, honeydew melon. aroma. And then the, the texture is so exciting on the palate. Like all these little bubbles kind of tickling your taste buds.

John Puma: 14:22

Yeah, it’s interesting to me because it’s got that, I think I’ve talked about this before on the show, how you’ve got this like melon, but you’ve also got this texture that comes from the, the intense amount of like, of bubbles on there, I don’t want to say carbonation, but of bubbles that are in there, and it, it, it messes with you a little bit, messes with me a little bit, uh, but yeah, it’s really tasty. I’m a big fan of this. I don’t do too much sparkling sake. So it’s cheese and sparkling sake, two things I don’t do a lot of. And, um, yeah. But no, this is a tasty, tasty combination so far. And that is me and the sparkling sake.

Timothy Sullivan: 14:58

Well, John, you have to step aside now. It is time for my shell to spread this Brillat-Savarin on your cracker. You ready to go?

Myshell Puma: 15:07

My crackers are sourdough flatbread in the olive oil and Selgris flavored?

Timothy Sullivan: 15:14

Yes. So these are sourdough crackers that are a favorite of mine. I serve these in my class and they are, um, they use a gray sea salt. but we’re gonna, I’m gonna sip. Oh my God.

Myshell Puma: 15:36

I mentioned so i’m drinking my hakaisan awa out of a champagne flute And so it’s a lot of bubbly very much in the nose. It smells very fresh And my initial bite of the cheese, it was the same way. It just made it taste very, very fresh. And then at the end when I, and then I went back, I kind of got almost like a berry taste to it, which I think is what you were mentioning before, Tim, about that melon y sort of flavor. I’m definitely getting that melon flavor now.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:03

when I taste this cheese, I, the thing that hits me right over the head is the creamy, rich texture. this is buttery. it’s salty, so it’s not like eating butter, but it has the mouthfeel of softened, rich butter, doesn’t it? Like, a really creamy butter. And it is so decadent. Like, really good.

Myshell Puma: 16:28

Yeah, it’s definitely, when you said, like, an ice cream earlier, you compared it to that, it, it’s sort of almost, not melting, but it’s, it’s getting very soft, like ice cream, and the way I spread it on, kind of reminded me of, like, a gelato. You can make, like, a little mound out of it.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:41

Mm.

Myshell Puma: 16:43

Wow.

Timothy Sullivan: 16:45

Yeah, so give it another taste and let me know what you think.

Myshell Puma: 16:47

yeah, I’m gonna need a few more tastes, I think, to decide. I guess I already drank all of my Sake, so

Timothy Sullivan: 16:57

Refill, refill. So John, are you feeling left out right now? Do you wish you were a cheese lover in this moment? Or are you secure in your hatred of cheese?

John Puma: 17:07

Um, there’s a little FOMO, but I’ll get over it.

Myshell Puma: 17:13

He’s, he’s getting the mukbang experience. Just watching us eat all this cheese. the softness of this cheese with this cracker that you chose is amazing. The cracker is like structurally sound and it adds a crunch but it also kind of just like melts away with the cheese. It is. Very nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:33

So thumbs up for the first cheese.

Myshell Puma: 17:35

Oh, so much thumbs up. Amazing.

Timothy Sullivan: 17:38

So I think that in my experience teaching this class, I’ve always launched the class with this pairing, like some sparkling sake, sometimes Awa, sometimes Brooklyn KuraSecondi, or another sparkling sake. And I find that the bubbles really scrub the palate, scrub your tongue and kind of cut the rich creaminess of this. Like you, if you imagine scooping butter onto your tongue, it’s going to get really greasy and heavy, but I find the sparkling just lightens it and cleanses your palate as you’re taking bites of this cheese.

Myshell Puma: 18:16

That’s so true. That’s the opposite direction that I would have thought. I guessed That we were going to go in sort of a, like, aged sake or like an umeshu, like, just roll with the richness and the, the deepness, but that, scrubbing that you’re talking about, it does, like, lighten everything up and allows you to go back in fresh for the next bite, which is super nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:37

all right. So that was our first pairing. And are you ready to move on to pairing number two?

Myshell Puma: 18:44

Yeah. I’ve had like three of these crackers worth of this cheese.

Timothy Sullivan: 18:50

Okay. So our next pairing is Gruyere cheese. So we went from a super soft triple cream cheese to a medium hard cheese. Now, if you think of. Really hard cheeses like, um, Parmesan Reggiano or something like that, that’s like a brick, like you can hit someone on the head with it. This is a medium soft cheese, so it has a little bit of give to it, but it’s relatively firm. And this is from Gruyere, Switzerland. And this is very special to me because I went on a vacation to Switzerland with my husband, Scott, and he made us go Out of our way to visit the tiny town of Gruyere, and we actually had Gruyere cheese and Gruyere fondue in the town of Gruyere. So I have personal experience with this part of Switzerland. We had an amazing time, and I was won over to Gruyere. since that experience. Now, I want to tell you just a little bit about Gruyere. Gruyere, of course, is an Alpine cheese. And that means that the cow’s milk that is used to make Gruyere is from cows that graze in Alpine pastures. Gruyere is also an AOP, which means an Appellation d’Origine Protégée, which is like protected. origin So this can only be made in the Gruyere region. And this cheese is also made in traditional copper vats, which are prized for their antimicrobial properties and the flavors that these vats also impart to the cheese. So this is all hyperlocal in the Gruyere region of Switzerland. These are 80 pound wheels of cheese that are then cut up. So what we have here is a. Small slice of an 80 pound wheel and Scott and I actually saw them making this at the Gruyere Museum that they have right by the train station. And we fell in love with it. So there’s a few things I want to tell you about Gruyere. If you look, Myshell, if you look closely at your piece of Gruyere, I want you to let me know if you see any white specks in your cheese, like little white dots.

Myshell Puma: 21:16

Yeah, I have a few. Like little, like little constellations.

Timothy Sullivan: 21:19

Yep. So those white specks are actually concentrations of amino acids. And those are little umami bombs that are hidden in your gruyere. And if you move up to something like a Parmigiano Reggiano, you’re going to see a lot more of those white crystals. And those are concentrations of amino acids. So this is like getting to the, um, umami. and savory side of cheese, but this is a little bit more reserved. The one that we have here is aged for about 10 months. And, I would describe the flavor overall of Gruyere as kind of like a little bit of a grassy and nutty flavor. So, the last point I want to make about Gruyere is that this is one of the main ingredients in fondue. So are you a fan of fondue, Myshell?

Myshell Puma: 22:08

Wow, I did not know that fondue had like a specific recipe. I thought it was just any melted cheese, so I think I have to say no. I’m not that much of a fan since I clearly didn’t even know what it was, but I thought I was because I do like dipping things in hot cheese. So, 50

Timothy Sullivan: 22:24

This is a really delicious cheese, uh, alpine gruyere and it melts beautifully, but we’re going to be having it snack style where we put it, on a cracker. And let’s introduce the sake that we have paired for this. And the sake I picked is Yukinobosha Yamahaii Junmai. This is a sake from the Akita region of Japan. It’s a Yamahaii and it’s a Junmai grade. Rice polished to 65%. The Sake meter value is plus one. This uses yamadanishiki rice and Akita Komachi rice, and the acidity is 1.9. So there’s a very specific reason that I picked this sake to pair with the Gruyere. Uh, the acidity is 1.9, which is a little bit high for. traditional Junmai. And I felt that that higher acidity kind of calls back to the white wine that they use in fondue. So if you dip bread into fondue, you get a little bit of the acidic bite from the white wine they use. When they’re making the fondue. So I wanted to find a sake that had just a little bit of bright acidity. And I love this Yukinobosha Junmai. So let’s get this in the glass and taste it together. Now, I’m going to slice off a sliver of the gruyere. You’ll notice that the texture is much firmer than the super creamy triple cream. So I’m going to take a couple thin slices and the same cracker. To keep everything even, we’re not going to mess around with the vehicle here.

Myshell Puma: 24:10

So mine has, I wouldn’t exactly call it a rind, but there’s like a darker edge.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:15

Yes.

Myshell Puma: 24:16

Is that also fungus?

Timothy Sullivan: 24:18

No. That is a salt wash that they, they wipe the wheel with salt every so often when they’re aging this cheese and it forms a firm rind on the outside. It is edible, but I don’t eat this one. So you want to take some cheese from the non rind area.

Myshell Puma: 24:36

This one looks a lot less scary than the last one.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:38

All right. So let’s try the sake first. You ready, John?

John Puma: 24:42

Oh yes. I’ve been waiting.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:44

Okay. Mmm.

Myshell Puma: 24:47

This one smells like a John Puma sake. Mmm.

John Puma: 24:54

pretty Yamahaii.

Timothy Sullivan: 24:56

Mmm. I think this. is a pretty yamahai.

John Puma: 24:58

pretty. And I do like a pretty Yamahai. if I’m having a Yamahai, it’s going to be nice and pretty. This one’s very well dressed. I’m a big fan. It’s set up nicely.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:08

for me with this sake is the acidity. So there’s a little brightness on the finish that I really want to highlight with this and let’s do our Oreo method, Myshell, and give it a taste.

Myshell Puma: 25:23

This is amazing. This one is so good. Mmm.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:28

Very nutty, creamy in a firm way, like melts in your mouth a little.

Myshell Puma: 25:34

It has almost, like, a kick of, like, saltiness, almost? That, like, brightness? Maybe those are those little, acid bombs you were talking about? that are lovely. And then the sake does not get lost at all. It just washes right along with it. It’s so nice.

Timothy Sullivan: 25:51

So my recommended pairing with a Gruyere cheese is finding a higher acid Sake, something like 1. 7 or above. And that acidity mimics what a white wine might bring to the flavor of this sake when you’re making a fondue.

Myshell Puma: 26:08

This is lovely. and it does have like a complex flavor, like the nuttiness that you’re talking about, but then the acidity is this like brightness that’s like on top of it as well. So it just, It’s still refreshing even though it’s, it’s kind of a heavier, more full cheese. That brightness just lightens it up. It’s really nice. I love it.

Timothy Sullivan: 26:29

Yeah. And I just want to say one thing before we move on to the last pairing, and that is there may be some listeners here who are thinking that You know, wine and cheese is the ultimate food pairing. Like for our whole lives, we’ve heard about wine and cheese pairings, like it’s the greatest thing in the world and so sophisticated. And I honestly have come to believe that sake and cheese pairing is better because the acidity levels are much more moderated in sake. And sometimes wine can just kind of barrel in with its high acidity and stronger flavors and just kind of bowl over. the cheese. And I find that sake and cheese pairing is more of a subtle dance. I don’t know if you’ve done wine and cheese pairings, Myshell, before, but I find I enjoy this more subtle approach with sake versus wine.

Myshell Puma: 27:23

I’ve had wine and cheese at the same time, but, um, I’ve never had it paired. And I mean, you know, it, I, I don’t think I picked up on the subtleties as much as we are here. Like, this is definitely like a very beautiful, very, intentional set that you’ve put together for me. And like, I’m very excited to have this. And I don’t know, maybe I feel like I’ve been a caveman this whole time. Mean, I go to Trader Joe’s, you know, I buy what’s on sale. Yeah. But no, this is lovely. This is, your, your notes about looking at the acidity of the sake and pairing, like it makes a lot of sense and it’s, it’s very nice. I’ve been missing out for sure.

Timothy Sullivan: 28:05

All right. Well, let’s move on to our third and final pairing, and this is going to be the most challenging. Uh, we’re going to move into a little bit of a funky area for cheese. I picked up a blue cheese, which a little bird told me, Michelle, is maybe not your favorite kind of cheese. but I picked up a Point Reyes blue cheese. So we had cheese from France, we had cheese from Switzerland, and now we’re coming back to the good. US of A. So this is an American cheese from California, Point Reyes is just north of San Francisco. And this is a very interesting cheese. Place where this is made, Point Reyes Farmstead, existed for generations as a dairy farm where all they did was make milk and they sold it. And in the nineties, when the price of milk started to go down, the owners of this Point Reyes Farmstead looked at other ways to use their milk and they decided to try to make their first cheese. And they made this blue cheese. It’s called the Original Blue. They have a 700 acre farm in California in Point Reyes. And one of the interesting things about this farm is that it was run by a husband and wife most recently. And then they had three daughters and the three daughters moved back home when the father was ready to retire and took over the running of the dairy farm. So this is now a female run business and they focus much more on these artisanal cheeses that they’ve started making. And, uh, blue cheese is very divisive. Don’t you think? Like some people love it. Some people hate it. What do you think about blue cheese?

Myshell Puma: 30:00

yes, so that was a lot of beautiful information. Just first of all, that was so fascinating. I was not expecting to have cheese from the United States. and if you did, I, I would have guessed, Wisconsin. Probably. I didn’t know that California had cheese. cheese dairy farms?

Timothy Sullivan: 30:17

a 700 acre dairy farm. It’s not what you picture when you think of California.

Myshell Puma: 30:21

No, not at all. So that was really interesting. Um, and I, I don’t know very much about blue cheese, but I thought, isn’t it a European cheese, right?

Timothy Sullivan: 30:30

Originally, yes.

Myshell Puma: 30:31

Yeah.

Timothy Sullivan: 30:32

And the thing that makes blue cheese blue is the fungus. So what they do, similar to the triple cream cheese, is when they’re mixing the cheese, initially when it’s all liquidy, they dump the mold into the cheese while it’s still liquid. when they’re forming the cheese into wheels for this blue cheese, for all blue cheeses, what they do is they take these metal spikes and they spike holes into the cheese while it’s forming, and this creates air channels and the molds. goes to where the air channels are. That’s why you often see these lines in blue cheese where the mold kind of grows straight up and down in these lines. And so they puncture the cheese and where the oxygen is, that’s where the mold tends to grow up and it creates the veins of the bluish green mold.

Myshell Puma: 31:24

Hmm. It does have a very strong flavor and I think the fact that it’s Mold I think just immediately turns a lot of people off. Um, because it’s such a strong flavor like it makes sense that people get turned away. It’s very divisive. I also know Humboldt fog that’s like another Is that that’s not a blue cheese, but it’s similar right? It’s folds ribbons of the mold

Timothy Sullivan: 31:46

Yeah. They make a blue cheese as well. so that brand has a, that’s a really famous, there’s another one from Ireland called Cashel Blue. Blue cheese from many, many countries. I really like this Point Reyes one, and I have a little trick that I have to approach this cheese, but before we get to that, let me introduce the sake. And John, I think you’re going to want to pay attention here because this is, might be a favorite of yours.

John Puma: 32:15

It might be.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:17

So we’re going to be pairing this blue cheese with Dewazakura Oka. This is a ginjo sake from Dewazakura Shuzo out of Yamagata. SMV plus five, acidity 1. 2. the rice types are Dewasan san and Asakura san. Hainuki, and those are polished to 50 percent remaining. The English name for this sake is actually cherry bouquet, if that gives you any indication where we’re going with this.

John Puma: 32:47

I’m very familiar with this sake, and it is absolutely one of my favorites, bar none. This needs no qualification.

Timothy Sullivan: 32:57

All right, well, I’m going to get this Dewazakura in the glass. Okay. Now, Myshell I promised you a little trick to help ease us into the enjoyment of blue cheese, and I gave you a little vial of some honey. And my trick for blue cheese, if it’s maybe not your favorite or a little too strongly flavored for you, I recommend taking a little bit of blue cheese on a cracker and then putting Let’s put a little drizzle of honey over that, and then honey lends some sweetness and balance to the lactic funk of the blue cheese, and I find it makes it much, much more palatable for people who blue cheese may not be their favorite. So let’s give that a try.

Myshell Puma: 33:50

For the record, I don’t love blue cheese, like, I don’t like it, you know, but I can eat, and will eat, anything under duress. So, I, you know, I have had it.

Timothy Sullivan: 33:59

So we are under duress right now, ladies and gentlemen. Um, now you’ll notice the texture, Michel, of this blue cheese is crumbly. So we had one super creamy, one semi firm, and this is a crumbly cheese.

Myshell Puma: 34:11

I was going to ask what your method was to getting it to stay on your cracker.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:15

yeah, just push down with the, with the knife and just crumble and smush,

Myshell Puma: 34:19

much, like the bend and snap. I

Timothy Sullivan: 34:22

Yes. And then to get the honey on, I put it on a spoon and just kind of spin the spoon and get the honey kind of suspended and then drizzle.

John Puma: 34:32

So, I’m drinking this out of a wine glass, and the nose for me has all that, that big fruit, that cherry. Ooh, I love it. But no cheese for me. So, I’m wondering what’s going to happen when we pair them together.

Myshell Puma: 34:46

Okay, so I am going to, be a little less brave this time and I’m gonna do more honey.

Timothy Sullivan: 34:51

yeah. A little less cheese, just a little schmear.

Myshell Puma: 34:53

Those other ones were so good. I’m trying to just like find the honey and focus on the sweetness. It still tastes so much like blue cheese to me But I think that’s really a testament to the quality of this cheese that you picked out that like, you know It’s strong and knows what it’s about It’s not gonna like hide too much behind that but it is it is much more palatable this way I think that if you are like on the fence about blue cheese I think this is a really great trick. But for me, I just don’t like it. I’m, sorry

Timothy Sullivan: 35:32

I knew this would be like a divisive cheese, and I contemplated bringing it on, but I think if we’re gonna talk about sake and cheese, I really felt like bringing one controversial character onto the plate was really important.

Myshell Puma: 35:48

It definitely goes together I think that the honey I liked the honestly the texture of the honey that like syrupy ness Really went well also with that texture the crumbliness of the blue cheese I think if I had it a few more times, I think it’s definitely sort of, it’s, it’s a much more like mature palate type of cheese. Um, and I would definitely be open. I mean, I have a whole chunk of it now. I would definitely be open to continuing to like, to like blue cheese. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it. It’s just, it’s a stronger flavor for me. I’m, you know, I’m not as familiar with it.

Timothy Sullivan: 36:20

Yeah. I’ll tell you this. When I teach the class at the sake study center, I feature this pairing and I ask everybody, like I ask all the students, like, are there any blue cheese haters in the class? And they’ve paid money to come to a cheese class, you know? And I say, and like every time about 20 to 30 percent of the people raised their hands that they’re not crazy about blue cheese. So I developed this honey drizzle. to kind of ease people into blue cheese. And let’s talk about the sake pairing. Like, this has a little bit of fruitiness and a little bit of that cherry note. And I wanted to bring that into this pairing. So this is, I think of the three, this is the most complex pairing because you have the funk and the lactic from the cheese. You have the sweetness from the honey, and then you have a little bit of a fruity note from the Uh, from the Dewazakura. So we went from more simple to advanced in my book.

Myshell Puma: 37:25

What was, really surprising to me was, With other types of food, when I’m having, food at home or having sake at home, when a sake doesn’t pair, it just sort of tastes like straight alcohol. Like, you can just tell right away that it just doesn’t work. And this, blue cheese is such a strong, prominent flavor. And then the honey is so sweet. Like, these are very big flavors and it did not make the Dewazakura taste off or weird. Like it, it still went with it, which is so amazing. It’s very impressive.

Timothy Sullivan: 37:52

Yeah, one other, one other pairing that I like with this blue cheese and the honey is a, like a shiboritate nama, like something super fruity and sweet that brings balance. And for today I found the Dewazakura Oka, which is a little more restrained. Of course, it’s not a nama, but it does have those, uh, little bit of a jammy fruitiness to it, which I really like. John, how would you describe the Dewazakura Oka for you?

John Puma: 38:23

decadent. I, I am a huge fan, obviously, you guys are. Both of you have heard me, uh, go on about this sake for years. It is one of those, like, desert island sakes for me. Uh, I think it’s wonderful. It goes with such a wide variety of foods, I think. Because while it is like ginjo, it’s got all those tropical notes to it. It’s, it’s It’s also a sake that can, like, stand with some food, and it’s not too delicate, which I think is probably why you chose it for this, because,

Timothy Sullivan: 38:52

That’s a, yep.

John Puma: 38:53

you know, you’re going for that fruit, you want something that’s going to have a little bit more oomph to it. Uh, and it does,

Timothy Sullivan: 38:59

Myshell, I hope you feel like I’ve taken you on a little journey through cheese. Like we’ve, we’ve done different textures, different profiles. And whenever I do a pairing with any food and sake, I always tell people that I don’t think you’re going to fall in love with every single one of these. That’s not the point. We want to please your palate, but we also want to stretch your palate. and see if there’s any new combinations or flavors that, you know, you might not fall in love with them at first sight, but maybe something about that combination will stay with you. And maybe there’s some thing in there that can, be a reference point for the future. And I think as you’re learning sake and food pairing, even the things that don’t you as love at first sight will stay with you and can serve you in the future. What do you, what do you think about that?

Myshell Puma: 39:48

I’m actually so inspired by this. as you’ve been talking about the way that the cheeses are made and how they taste and then What aspects for each sake made you choose them for that cheese? Like, it’s just made me think of other things that I think might be a good idea. And, it’s really inspired me to try other pairings with these. since I’m at home and I’m not, you know, conducting a class, like, it’s a little bit more low stakes. I feel like, I can just try around a little bit. and I’m really excited. Like I said, that the first one that we had, I thought you were going to go like a sweeter sake, a more like richer, deeper one. I’m interested to see how that goes. And this blue cheese, you know, it’s a funky cheese. It’s famous for being so funky. And it makes me think like, what if we did like a hot nigori with it? You know, like, what if we just got weird? I don’t know. I’m, I’m excited to do a lot more cheese and sake pairings. I mean, there’s so much cheese left over.

Timothy Sullivan: 40:43

Well. You’re living up to your crazy style brand right now. Hot nigori with blue cheese. Oh my God. I don’t know if I even, I could handle that, but it sounds

John Puma: 40:53

I’ll get back to you later on how it

Timothy Sullivan: 40:54

Yeah. Well, that makes me so happy that you’ve taken that away from this experience is that this is really just the jumping off point. I don’t want anyone coming to any of my classes saying like, okay, now I know everything about This sake and that food, you know, it’s, it’s just a starting point to kind of launch the ship and go out and explore on your own about what might be fun for you. I view my classes as basically giving people permission to start to pair sake with non traditional things. Like you can have sake outside of the sushi bar and sake and cheese, sake and desserts, uh, sparkling sake. All these things are. In my view, giving people permission to explore and have fun. And it sounds like that struck the right chord with you, too.

Myshell Puma: 41:40

Yeah, I just need that cheese fairy to deliver it to me every time for the best experience.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:50

You’ve got, you have a cheese fairy on speed dial, so you can call me anytime.

Myshell Puma: 41:56

Amazing.

Timothy Sullivan: 41:58

Um, so any, any last thoughts, Myshell, about your sake and cheese pairing experience? Would you recommend it to others?

Myshell Puma: 42:05

Yeah, I, you know, I love cheese. I’m a, I eat a lot of cheese. I drink a lot of sake and I still learned so much. And even when you were describing it to me, I was still very surprised by how it was going. So I think that. Even if you’re an expert in one or the other or both, I still think that you can learn a lot by just like sitting down and doing these comparisons back to back. I think I still have a lot to learn. I think we should probably do another episode or two just to really like hammer it home for me. I still have a lot of questions, you know, so I think we’re gonna have to do a few more of these.

Timothy Sullivan: 42:41

I agree. I think we should have, uh, Scott, Scott’s out of town right now, but I think we should have him on the podcast and do another slate of three cheeses and three

Myshell Puma: 42:51

I was going to say, how is he not banging down the door like, let me in to try these cheeses. This is amazing.

Timothy Sullivan: 42:58

Yeah, he’s on a trip right now, but, uh, we’ll have him on next time. And I agree with you. We can do a part two of this. And we’ll enjoy the cheese and sake. And, um, there’s a whole bunch of cheese styles we haven’t tried. One of my favorites we didn’t touch today is cheddar. Do you like cheddar cheese? Goat

Myshell Puma: 43:15

I love cheddar. I love white cheddar.

Timothy Sullivan: 43:17

Mmm.

Myshell Puma: 43:18

I love like the firmer, saltier ones. So like the gruyere, I think today was my favorite. I also love goat cheese and there’s so many flavored goat cheese these days as well.

Timothy Sullivan: 43:29

Yeah, I normally serve a goat cheese in class, but to keep it to keep it to three cheeses today, I took the goat cheese out, but we always have a goat cheese in class. So we can do that next time as well. But I think we’re all cued up to do an, a goat cheese. Part two of sake and cheese pairing, the revenge.

Myshell Puma: 43:45

I love it.

John Puma: 43:46

have we accidentally made a series? Is that what just happened? This

Timothy Sullivan: 43:50

so you think we had a successful first sake and cheese pairing, Myshell?

Myshell Puma: 43:54

Yes, I want to shout out my boy, Briant, uh, for really making, isn’t that, that guy’s name? Briant, the cheese

Timothy Sullivan: 44:01

Oh yeah. Briont Savarin. Yeah.

Myshell Puma: 44:03

Yeah, shout out to him, this was amazing, good job.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:08

All right. Well. John, do you still have FOMO right now?

John Puma: 44:14

No, I’ve been drinking along, so I’m having a great time.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:17

Okay. You’re having a great time. The blue cheese probably put you back in your place and made you think you’re, you’re fine.

John Puma: 44:24

Yeah, the blue cheese, suddenly I was like, you know what? Just having the sake is great. I’m living my best life over here.

Timothy Sullivan: 44:31

All right. Well, uh, John, thank you so much for being a good sport and going with us along on this journey and Myshell. thank you so much. It was lovely to have you on the show and so great to taste with you. Thank you for filling in for JP and his cheese hating ways.

Myshell Puma: 44:52

Thank you for having me, and thank you for teaching me. I had a wonderful time, I learned so much, and it was delicious. Maybe

Timothy Sullivan: 45:01

any of the sakes or any of the cheeses we tasted in today’s episode, please visit our show notes at SakeRevolution.Com. I want to give a special shout out and hello to all our listeners. Thank you so much for tuning in. We appreciate you so much. A special greeting to all of our Patreon members. If you’d like to support the show, you can visit our Patreon. That is Patreon.com/SakeRevolution.

John Puma: 45:29

and, I think it goes without saying, especially today, that maybe you want to check out those show notes that are available at sakerevolution. com. You can have pictures of all three of the bottles of sake that we sipped on today, and of course a transcript of everything that went on over here today on the show. also at the website we have our merchandise page where you can get Sake Revolution t shirts, stickers, and other swag coming down the pipe at some point. In the near future. on that note, please grab your glass Remember to keep drinking sake, and perhaps some cheese with it, Kanpai!